Is belief that Jesus is YHWH necessary for salvation?

[Baby Cottontail]

This topic came up in another thread, and I am interested in people's thoughts on this.

I am thinking that it definitely could be an issue of salvation because of the following verses:
John 8:24 (NASB)
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

This is a few verses before John 8:58 (NASB):
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

I suppose that Jesus could either be saying "unless you believe I am the Messiah," or "unless you believe I AM" (that He is YHWH.) I also don't know whether or not Jesus was thinking about the future -- where there might be some people who believed that He was the Messiah, but denied His deity.

And there is the question of -- if you do not believe that Jesus is YHWH, then do you really believe in Jesus? And do you really believe that He is Lord?

I realize that no one can for sure answer these questions except for God. Only God knows the salvation of each person.

Then there is Romans 10:8-13 (NASB):
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

The second quote that Paul used is from Joel 2:32, which says in the NASB:
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Since LORD = YHWH in the OT, it seems that he is calling Jesus YHWH here.

Maybe Paul was not thinking that there might be people who believed in Jesus, but denied that He was YHWH. Or maybe he considered belief that Jesus was YHWH to be necessary for salvation.

What do you think?


Editing this post to add this:
If you do comment, please follow the site wide rules. You are not allowed to argue against the trinity, nor against Jesus' deity, nor against Jesus being 100% human and 100% God.

The trinity is defined as one God (I am using the name YHWH here, although the specific name that you call Him by makes no difference -- I'm just trying to make this understandable -- the one biblical God -- the God of both the OT and NT) in three Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The Father is not the Son.
The Son is not the Father.
The Holy Spirit is not the Son.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
The Father is not the Holy Spirit.

 

[Strathos]

Yes. At least that's how I interpret it.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

Yes, as you have shown from passages like John 8:24, where Jesus says, that unless you believe that "ἐγώ εἰμι", I AM (there is no he in the Greek text), you shall surely die in your sins and go to hell! Like in John 8:58, Jesus has in mind Exodus 3:14, when He says to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM", so the best Hebrew rendering of the words. And the Greek Old Testament has it, "ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", "I AM THE ETERNAL ONE". From where we get the Hebrew Name, YAHWEH.

How can some still deny the Deity, and Eternity of the Lord Jesus Christ, after such powerful Scripture testimony?

 

[Neostarwcc]

No, I don't think that belief that Jesus is Yahweh is a requirement to be saved. Why? Several reasons. For one we have Romans 10:13:

"for, Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

This means that everyone that comes to Jesus for salvation will be saved. No matter what they believe in or what they do, Jesus saves.

Also there's the verse in my signature that everybody knows. John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

That being said, A minimum requirement to be saved would be to believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ A.K.A. the Gospel. For, without the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ there can be no salvation. Jesus had to die on the cross for us to have our sins blotted out forever. So those who deny the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ are probably not saved. Nobody knows for sure, But probably not. I realize I probably will only be one of the few that believe that this isn't a requirement for salvation but, meh.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

I received a private message from a non-Trinitarian Messianic who suggested that this thread could be posted in the World Religions forum so that non-Christians could respond.

My original intention was to have those who already are trinitarian Christians to respond -- but it might be interesting to see what non-trinitarians and non-Christians think.

Can I post an identical thread in the World Religions asking this question, or would this thread have to be moved there?

I'm asking because there does seem to be interest from at least one person who doesn't fit the requirements of this sub forum to comment.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

No, I don't think that belief that Jesus is Yahweh is a requirement to be saved. Why? Several reasons. For one we have Romans 10:13:

"for, Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

This means that everyone that comes to Jesus for salvation will be saved. No matter what they believe in or what they do, Jesus saves.

Also there's the verse in my signature that everybody knows. John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

That being said, A minimum requirement to be saved would be to believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ A.K.A. the Gospel. For, without the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ there can be no salvation. Jesus had to die on the cross for us to have our sins blotted out forever. So those who deny the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ are probably not saved. Nobody knows for sure, But probably not. I realize I probably will only be one of the few that believe that this isn't a requirement for salvation but, meh.

Remember, though Paul is quoting from Joel 2:32, which uses LORD for "Lord," there.

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Yes..whoever believes in Jesus -- but believes in Jesus for what? Just that Jesus exists?

So then there are at least some requirements, as you have pointed out. A person must believe in Jesus' death and resurrection, which Romans 10:8-13 says as well.

And what does it mean to confess Jesus as Lord? Does that mean a person has to confess Him as YHWH, or just the Lord of their life?

 

[Christie insb]

This topic came up in another thread, and I am interested in people's thoughts on this.

I am thinking that it definitely could be an issue of salvation because of the following verses:
John 8:24 (NASB)
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

This is a few verses before John 8:58 (NASB):
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

I suppose that Jesus could either be saying "unless you believe I am the Messiah," or "unless you believe I AM" (that He is YHWH.) I also don't know whether or not Jesus was thinking about the future -- where there might be some people who believed that He was the Messiah, but denied His deity.

And there is the question of -- if you do not believe that Jesus is YHWH, then do you really believe in Jesus? And do you really believe that He is Lord?

I realize that no one can for sure answer these questions except for God. Only God knows the salvation of each person.

Then there is Romans 10:8-13 (NASB):
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

The second quote that Paul used is from Joel 2:32, which says in the NASB:
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Since LORD = YHWH in the OT, it seems that he is calling Jesus YHWH here.

Maybe Paul was not thinking that there might be people who believed in Jesus, but denied that Have e was YHWH. Or maybe he considered belief that Jesus was YHWH to be necessary for salvation.

What do you think?

To my faith, Jesus does have to be YHWH. God is the judge, not me, but that is the line I use to send Jehovah's Witnesses away - - what we believe about Jesus is so different that we don't have any common ground. For some reason I was considering whether or not Jesus is YHWH, and I opened thumbed through the New Testament and everywhere I randomly stopped, there was a verse that confirmed Jesus' divinity. So maybe some people are raised in a religion that views Jesus differently than I do but really love Jesus. Maybe they could be saved but I would not choose to go to such a church myself.

 

[Winken]

I received a private message from a non-Trinitarian Messianic who suggested that this thread could be posted in the World Religions forum so that non-Christians could respond.

My original intention was to have those who already are trinitarian Christians to respond -- but it might be interesting to see what non-trinitarians and non-Christians think.

Can I post an identical thread in the World Religions asking this question, or would this thread have to be moved there?

I'm asking because there does seem to be interest from at least one person who doesn't fit the requirements of this sub forum to comment.

Romans 10:8-13 is for Jew and Gentile. Romans 8:1, John 5:24, Ephesians 2:8-9 are the underwriters.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Yes, as you have shown from passages like John 8:24, where Jesus says, that unless you believe that "ἐγώ εἰμι", I AM (there is no he in the Greek text), you shall surely die in your sins and go to hell! Like in John 8:58, Jesus has in mind Exodus 3:14, when He says to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM", so the best Hebrew rendering of the words. And the Greek Old Testament has it, "ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", "I AM THE ETERNAL ONE". From where we get the Hebrew Name, YAHWEH.

How can some still deny the Deity, and Eternity of the Lord Jesus Christ, after such powerful Scripture testimony?

Thank you so much for looking at the Greek here.

Would you be willing to look at the Greek version of the OT and let me know how a few other passages are translated that use "I AM" in the Bible translation. I am curious whether or not the "He" is in the Greek, or if it appears exactly as it does in John 8:24.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Romans 10:8-13 is for Jew and Gentile. Romans 8:1, John 5:24, Ephesians 2:8-9 are the underwriters.

What do you mean by underwriters?

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Yes. At least that's how I interpret it.

Thank you for your response.

 

[Winken]

What do you mean by underwriters?

Romans 10:8-13 SHALL be saved. The others verify that promise.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Remember, though Paul is quoting from Joel 2:32, which uses LORD for "Lord," there.

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Yes..whoever believes in Jesus -- but believes in Jesus for what? Just that Jesus exists?

So then there are at least some requirements, as you have pointed out. A person must believe in Jesus' death and resurrection, which Romans 10:8-13 says as well.

And what does it mean to confess Jesus as Lord? Does that mean a person has to confess Him as YHWH, or just the Lord of their life?

You would have to ask a mod to move your thread. I think that it is best posted here in controversial. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and relying on Christ for salvation. To believe is to believe in Christs death, burial, and resurrection.

It just means making Jesus Lord of your life. Confessing him as Lord. Paul said that we cannot call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit. So another minimum requirement would be to become born again so that our spirits can become sinless. But, Jesus does that work when we believe.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Guys I just had a thought. When Jesus said "If you don't believe that I am he" could he have meant if you don't believe I am the Messiah, you will die in your sins?

 

[Winken]

Guys I just had a thought. When Jesus said "If you don't believe that I am he" could he have meant if you don't believe I am the Messiah, you will die in your sins?

Exactly. He was speaking to a Jewish audience prior to the Cross.

 

[Hillsage]

This topic came up in another thread, and I am interested in people's thoughts on this.
And there is the question of -- if you do not believe that Jesus is YHWH, then do you really believe in Jesus? And do you really believe that He is Lord?

What do you think?

'I think' I have a question...or two.

Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

And my question is. Would you agree that "LORD"/JHWH was speaking to the "Lord" in this verse above? If so, then is Jesus talking to himself? Or is it the Father speaking to the Son?

 

[Neostarwcc]

Exactly. He was speaking to a Jewish audience prior to the Cross.

I see. So, it isn't really evidence for "You have to believe that Jesus is Yahweh to be saved"

'I think' I have a question...or two.

Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

And my question is. Would you agree that "LORD"/JHWH was speaking to the "Lord" in this verse above? If so, then is Jesus talking to himself? Or is it the Father speaking to the Son?

I believe it is the Father speaking to Jesus.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

You would have to ask a mod to move your thread. I think that it is best posted here in controversial. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and relying on Christ for salvation. To believe is to believe in Christs death, burial, and resurrection.

It just means making Jesus Lord of your life. Confessing him as Lord. Paul said that we cannot call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit. So another minimum requirement would be to become born again so that our spirits can become sinless. But, Jesus does that work when we believe.

Which mod would be the best one to ask questions to? I see a list of staff members, but am confused by which ones specifically the mods are, and which one would be the best one to answer my questions regarding posting another thread or moving this one?

 

[Neostarwcc]

Which mod would be the best one to ask questions to? I see a list of staff members, but am confused by which ones specifically the mods are, and which one would be the best one to answer my questions regarding posting another thread or moving this one?

Hi. You can just open a ticket and a mod will get to you.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

To my faith, Jesus does have to be YHWH. God is the judge, not me, but that is the line I use to send Jehovah's Witnesses away - - what we believe about Jesus is so different that we don't have any common ground. For some reason I was considering whether or not Jesus is YHWH, and I opened thumbed through the New Testament and everywhere I randomly stopped, there was a verse that confirmed Jesus' divinity. So maybe some people are raised in a religion that views Jesus differently than I do but really love Jesus. Maybe they could be saved but I would not choose to go to such a church myself.

I've actually had some extensive conversations with Jehovah's Witnesses. Yes, what we believe about Jesus is very different.

However, there is some common ground that Christians have with Jehovah's Witnesses. For example, we both believe that Jesus is the Messiah. We both believe in the Bible, and that God created the world. Their Bible is very different from ours, due to changes they've made. However, if you can get them to acknowledge that your Bible is a legitimate translation, they will accept you quoting from yours.

They do like good discussions, and they appreciate people who are willing to take the time to show them what we believe. You can't change their beliefs. Only the Holy Spirit can. He can use you to point out truth about Jesus in the Bible.

If belief in Jesus as YHWH is essential to salvation, then we should engage them with a loving heart.