Is belief that Jesus is YHWH necessary for salvation?

[Neostarwcc]

Salvation means that the men spirits finally live with God in heaven ( spiritual realm where God is, peacefully ).

We should know first ; how could we have spirit within our behalf while animals not ?.

Zec12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Eph1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

Jer1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations

Now we knew that when we were born , actually God sent in that time a spiritual being to abide in a certain physical creature aka His chosen people/ born of God, while animals and born of flesh man not .

Now we know that we are strangers sojourning in this perishable realm for awhile , then one day shall be moved back to the eternal realm where we were before (God placed first then taking them back later) taking them back = Salvation by God’s grace alone ( spirit of men will never be able to move there by their own efforts or other man efforts = not allowed to eat the fruit of the tree of life intentionally after they fell= not allowed to work on Sabbath day = can never fulfill the laws = there is no salvation by work ) .

1Pet1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear

How can men realize that “Salvation is by God’s Grace alone” / they should be taught in steps , so He gave His words from OT until NT .

When finally His people understood well about that ( salvation = by God’s Grace alone ) so surely they can bring Glory to God ( the purpose of creation ).

Adam and Eve were driven out from Eden merely to ovoid them from eating the fruits of the tree of life intentionally/willfully , then in this perishable earth we were given hundreds of laws the Torah laws to be fulfilled , very odd !!! is not it ?, where is the simplest to be fulfilled ?.

But no one realized about it even though the time given almost 1,500 years ( Moses era until Jesus where in that time God also had informed them that the Savior is God alone, the redeemer is God alone Isa43:11, Isa44:24 ), they still enthusiastically intentionally willfully trying to fulfill the laws , and surely continue if they were not compelled to witness the demonstration manifested by the Messiah .

So God Himself should demonstrate to His people in the cross event and resurrection , in order to His people understand that the salvation is by God’s Grace alone.



In OT have already said that man is sanctified by sprinkling the blood of the sacrifice lamb were done by the priest = being saved = resurrecting from dead , these were the tasks that the messiah should demonstrate in order men could understand that their salvation is only by God’s Grace .

We summary them as :” Men ,You will never save your self or others what ever effort you may try, because the salvation is only by God’s grace (Eph2:8) , that is what I want to demonstrate to you, I will be killed and three days later I shall resurrect from dead that you may know : the sacrifice blood is my blood = God blood , the priest is me as manifestation of God, the man who is sanctified will be acted by Me that shows you if the salvation is only for the chosen ( not man who says want , but only he or she whom the heart is made to want /written in the book of life before the creation of the world /the spirits which were sent by God from eternal realm to this perishable realm) , then by this event comes to pass you will understand that the salvation is only by God’s Grace, and you that believe (believe if this event is really manifestation of God’s grace ) is the winner you shall be resurrected too in the last day, and you that don’t believe you are the loser because you will surely say that I am not God Him self , and consider Me as a created being as you are , then if I am a created being surely I am spiritually dead too as you are then I shall reach My salvation too by this event( by this event I shall pay my own sins) means this event surely not a manifestation of God’s Grace or there is no premise ”salvation is only by God’s Grace” and every one shall pay their sins by their own effort , then why can’t you fulfill the Torah laws? , why am I said savoir? (Luk2:11), why am I said Redeemer? (Eph1:7), you that don’t believe you are really a loser certainly you are walking to the lof” .

Isa43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee

Isa43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior

Isa47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel

Isa63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Rev1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

Rev5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation


Luk2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord

Eph1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Hence by His demonstration from that day men began to know that the salvation is only by God Grace by this understanding means men can bring glory to God.

Believe in Him is other word of recognize that the Salvation is by God’s Grace alone it is necessity.

Thank you for this post! I couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes, as you have shown from passages like John 8:24, where Jesus says, that unless you believe that "ἐγώ εἰμι", I AM (there is no he in the Greek text), you shall surely die in your sins and go to hell! Like in John 8:58, Jesus has in mind Exodus 3:14, when He says to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM", so the best Hebrew rendering of the words. And the Greek Old Testament has it, "ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", "I AM THE ETERNAL ONE". From where we get the Hebrew Name, YAHWEH.

How can some still deny the Deity, and Eternity of the Lord Jesus Christ, after such powerful Scripture testimony?

None of these 5 greek texts have "him".
2 of them do omit the article "the" before Jesus, the Alexandrian and HW.
Here is fairly good greek NT site, tho I am sure there are better ones........

John 8:58
Said to them *the Jesus "amen amen I-am-saying to ye,
before Abraham to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635), I AM

John 8 - Parallel Greek New Testament - HTML Bible by johnhurt.com

58
Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
eipen autoiV o ihsouV amhn amhn legw umin prin abraam genesqai egw eimi
Hort and Westcott
eipen autoiV ihsouV amhn amhn legw umin prin abraam genesqai egw eimi

 

[Radagast]

Thanks!!! You covered one of the verses that I was going to ask saved.by.grace about. You are welcome to look at the other verses that I asked saved.by.grace about as well.

I didn't realize that John 4:26 was one as well Thanks for that.

OK:

Matthew 14:27 (NASB)
But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take courage, it is I (ego eimi); do not be afraid.”

I hadn't read that as a claim to divinity before, but it makes sense, in the context.

Isaiah 41:4 (NASB)
Who has performed and accomplished it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He (ego eimi).

Isaiah 43:10 (NASB)
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He (ego eimi). Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 43:13 (NASB)
"Even from eternity I am He, and there is none who can deliver out of my hand; I act and who can reverse it?"

Not an example; the Greek OT reads slightly differently.

Deuteronomy 32:39 (NASB, edited)
'See now that I am He (ego eimi), and there is no god besides Me; it is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, and there is no one who can deliver from my hand.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, are okay to use. "The LORD" is more frequently used in English.

Yes, that is how most Bibles translate it. But the problem with The LORD is that some people might not understand what The LORD means...they might think it is just the Lord.

 

[Radagast]

Yes, that is how most Bibles translate it. But the problem with The LORD is that some people might not understand what The LORD means...they might think it is just the Lord.

And "Lord" just means "Lord," but "LORD" means "YHWH," which confuses people. It's become tradition, however, and there is no consensus among Christians to use anything other than "LORD."

However, since this has turned into an illegal "let's debate the Trinity" thread, I've lost interest, and I'm unsubscribing.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

The Word who was from the beginning was God (John 1:1-5), meaning he was uncreated. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel is the Creator, that before and after him there are no other gods (Isaiah 45:5). The mere fact that Jesus who is the Living Word claimed to be before Abraham, transcends his state of being as a being self existing, that is the I Am.

For any created being to claim self existing as the I Am, denies any Creator before and after him. This would be blasphemy if Jesus Christ is not the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel.

The Jews new what Jesus was claiming to be in the following versus.....

John 10:33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Correct -- the Word was uncreated. This is made even more clear by comparing John 1:1-5 with Colossians 1:15-17.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

I am open about this. Because I think God is mainly concerned not about what label Jesus gets, but how we are becoming more and more like Jesus, or not.

But, like I offer > if someone has the wrong idea, it can be a wrong spirit has the person understanding things wrong. And this incompetent spirit can also have the person misunderstanding in other ways, including in understanding situations, how to relate with God, and how to understand other people.

But Jesus is clear that our Father teaches people while He is drawing people to Jesus > John 6:44-46. So - - - I can see, that if God is drawing a person to Jesus, then God will change the person to correctly understand Him. But this is not only in ideas, but how to become like Jesus and how to love while growing in how we are pleasing to and submissive to our Heavenly Father.

Yes, there can be a wrong spirit that the person has that blocks them from understanding. This can lead to more misunderstandings.

And, yes, I believe that the Holy Spirit can change anyone's heart -- even someone who is dead set against believing in God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes, as you have shown from passages like John 8:24, where Jesus says, that unless you believe that "ἐγώ εἰμι", I AM (there is no he in the Greek text), you shall surely die in your sins and go to hell! Like in John 8:58, Jesus has in mind Exodus 3:14, when He says to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM", so the best Hebrew rendering of the words. And the Greek Old Testament has it, "ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", "I AM THE ETERNAL ONE". From where we get the Hebrew Name, YAHWEH.

How can some still deny the Deity, and Eternity of the Lord Jesus Christ, after such powerful Scripture testimony?

I found this study I had from awhile back.
The Hebrew word #01961 appears to be equivalent to the greek word #1961
Thoughts?

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
Strong's Number H1961 matches the Hebrew הָיָה (hayah),
which occurs 76 times in 72 verses in the Hebrew concordance

Exodus 3:
13 And- Mosheh -is-saying to The-'Elohiym , "Lo, I coming to sons of Yisra'el, and I say to them, 'Elohiym of your fathers sends me to you'.
And they have said to me, 'what Name of Him'? What shall I say to them"?
14 And 'Elohiym is saying to Mosheh, "I-shall-be/01961 hayah who I-shall-be/01961 hayah".
And-He saying "Thus you shall say to sons of Yisra'el, 'I-shall-be/01961 hayah, sent-me unto-you'".

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

1961 hayah haw-yaw a primitive root (Compare 1933); to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use.

1096. ginomai ghin'-om-ahee a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Exodus 3:13,14
click to enlarge picture...

 

[GingerBeer]

Yes, that is how most Bibles translate it. But the problem with The LORD is that some people might not understand what The LORD means...they might think it is just the Lord.

Anybody willing to read a bible will not think "it is just the Lord". Even an atheist will not think that.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

I think Jesus is YHWH, but how it makes sense to me and how I reconcile the fact (that Jesus seems to much different from YHWH), how I reconcile that, is what is considered "heretical" and heresy to most...

Jesus completes or finishes YHWH in my opinion, cause he was or is YHWH to me...

God Bless!

Thanks for your thoughts on this

 

[Baby Cottontail]

If people don't believe Jesus Christ is the Creator God, then they unwittingly are making him out to be a transcendent religious leader who led people to God. He would be no different to the religious leaders of Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Satanism etc.

Very true.

However Jesus used personal pronouns and definite article terms which denies all historic religious leaders to God, when he declares.....

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?

The claim that Jesus Christ is coequal with the Father by diverting Phillip from searching for the Father to directing Phillip back to himself, is self sufficient point in case that Jesus isn't just a religious leader, but reinforcing that he is deity who can divert all from seeking God to himself. That is by no measure a little thing, if he was not the one in the same triune being himself.

I like how you interpreted this passage. I have never heard anyone explain it quite like that, and I think that that is very accurate. Thanks so much for your contribution to this thread!!!

 

[Baby Cottontail]

My take >

Jesus Christ's body was physical. And therefore His body was not Jesus. Jesus in His body was all God, not at all like we humans . . . created . . . are. But Jesus could feel what was going on, in His body.

But Jesus was God in a physical body; so how He reacted and felt about things was all without sin, all the way God's love had Him experiencing and seeing things and feeling about things.

So, He was not human the way we have been and have been able to react. Because His nature had Him being and seeing and reacting totally differently. And now He is ministering to us His own grace which makes us also strong like He was and is, and He shares this with us, more and more.

So, yes He was human, by being in a human body; but He was not weak so evil and things of this world could control Him and have power over Him to decide how He was and how He reacted.

And Jesus was all that humans can become, of compassion and humility and sensitivity in relating with people. So, you might say Jesus was not human, but humane . . . the way we need to become . . . not only humanly humane, but how God's own grace of His love has us become.

Interesting way of looking at it, but....

That would seem to deny that Jesus was fully human then, which would actually deny the hypostatic union....

I can see why people in the early church struggled so much to define doctrines.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Salvation means that the men spirits finally live with God in heaven ( spiritual realm where God is, peacefully ).

We should know first ; how could we have spirit within our behalf while animals not ?.

Zec12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Eph1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

Jer1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations

Now we knew that when we were born , actually God sent in that time a spiritual being to abide in a certain physical creature aka His chosen people/ born of God, while animals and born of flesh man not .

Now we know that we are strangers sojourning in this perishable realm for awhile , then one day shall be moved back to the eternal realm where we were before (God placed first then taking them back later) taking them back = Salvation by God’s grace alone ( spirit of men will never be able to move there by their own efforts or other man efforts = not allowed to eat the fruit of the tree of life intentionally after they fell= not allowed to work on Sabbath day = can never fulfill the laws = there is no salvation by work ) .

1Pet1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear

How can men realize that “Salvation is by God’s Grace alone” / they should be taught in steps , so He gave His words from OT until NT .

When finally His people understood well about that ( salvation = by God’s Grace alone ) so surely they can bring Glory to God ( the purpose of creation ).

Adam and Eve were driven out from Eden merely to ovoid them from eating the fruits of the tree of life intentionally/willfully , then in this perishable earth we were given hundreds of laws the Torah laws to be fulfilled , very odd !!! is not it ?, where is the simplest to be fulfilled ?.

But no one realized about it even though the time given almost 1,500 years ( Moses era until Jesus where in that time God also had informed them that the Savior is God alone, the redeemer is God alone Isa43:11, Isa44:24 ), they still enthusiastically intentionally willfully trying to fulfill the laws , and surely continue if they were not compelled to witness the demonstration manifested by the Messiah .

So God Himself should demonstrate to His people in the cross event and resurrection , in order to His people understand that the salvation is by God’s Grace alone.



In OT have already said that man is sanctified by sprinkling the blood of the sacrifice lamb were done by the priest = being saved = resurrecting from dead , these were the tasks that the messiah should demonstrate in order men could understand that their salvation is only by God’s Grace .

We summary them as :” Men ,You will never save your self or others what ever effort you may try, because the salvation is only by God’s grace (Eph2:8) , that is what I want to demonstrate to you, I will be killed and three days later I shall resurrect from dead that you may know : the sacrifice blood is my blood = God blood , the priest is me as manifestation of God, the man who is sanctified will be acted by Me that shows you if the salvation is only for the chosen ( not man who says want , but only he or she whom the heart is made to want /written in the book of life before the creation of the world /the spirits which were sent by God from eternal realm to this perishable realm) , then by this event comes to pass you will understand that the salvation is only by God’s Grace, and you that believe (believe if this event is really manifestation of God’s grace ) is the winner you shall be resurrected too in the last day, and you that don’t believe you are the loser because you will surely say that I am not God Him self , and consider Me as a created being as you are , then if I am a created being surely I am spiritually dead too as you are then I shall reach My salvation too by this event( by this event I shall pay my own sins) means this event surely not a manifestation of God’s Grace or there is no premise ”salvation is only by God’s Grace” and every one shall pay their sins by their own effort , then why can’t you fulfill the Torah laws? , why am I said savoir? (Luk2:11), why am I said Redeemer? (Eph1:7), you that don’t believe you are really a loser certainly you are walking to the lof” .

Isa43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee

Isa43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior

Isa47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel

Isa63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Rev1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

Rev5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation


Luk2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord

Eph1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Hence by His demonstration from that day men began to know that the salvation is only by God Grace by this understanding means men can bring glory to God.

Believe in Him is other word of recognize that the Salvation is by God’s Grace alone it is necessity.

Thanks for your contribution, and thanks for affirming that salvation is by God's grace.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

None of these 5 greek texts have "him".
2 of them do omit the article "the" before Jesus, the Alexandrian and HW.
Here is fairly good greek NT site, tho I am sure there are better ones........

John 8:58
Said to them *the Jesus "amen amen I-am-saying to ye,
before Abraham to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635), I AM

John 8 - Parallel Greek New Testament - HTML Bible by johnhurt.com

58
Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
eipen autoiV o ihsouV amhn amhn legw umin prin abraam genesqai egw eimi
Hort and Westcott
eipen autoiV ihsouV amhn amhn legw umin prin abraam genesqai egw eimi

Thanks

 

[Baby Cottontail]

OK:

Matthew 14:27 (NASB)
But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take courage, it is I (ego eimi); do not be afraid.”

I hadn't read that as a claim to divinity before, but it makes sense, in the context.

Isaiah 41:4 (NASB)
Who has performed and accomplished it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He (ego eimi).

Isaiah 43:10 (NASB)
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He (ego eimi). Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 43:13 (NASB)
"Even from eternity I am He, and there is none who can deliver out of my hand; I act and who can reverse it?"

Not an example; the Greek OT reads slightly differently.

Deuteronomy 32:39 (NASB, edited)
'See now that I am He (ego eimi), and there is no god besides Me; it is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, and there is no one who can deliver from my hand.

Thank you so much!!!!!! So, all of them in the Greek OT read the same way as in John 8:25 except for Isaiah 43:13. Awesome

 

[Baby Cottontail]

And "Lord" just means "Lord," but "LORD" means "YHWH," which confuses people. It's become tradition, however, and there is no consensus among Christians to use anything other than "LORD."

However, since this has turned into an illegal "let's debate the Trinity" thread, I've lost interest, and I'm unsubscribing.

Okay. Well, I'm not a Christian scholar -- I'm just trying to ask a question here in the way that makes the most sense to me, and that I think will make the most sense to others.

Yeah, I didn't want it to become an illegal trinity thread. It started out really well. I did try to warn the guy posting Unitarian links that it was against the rules. I still don't want this to turn into a "let's attack the trinity" thread.

We've had some really good discussion and information here, and I thank you for your time and expertise. I really appreciate you taking the time to look up the Greek for me on those selected passages

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Anybody willing to read a bible will not think "it is just the Lord". Even an atheist will not think that.

An atheist might not think that, but a non-trinitarian may not agree.

 

[GingerBeer]

An atheist might not think that, but a non-trinitarian may not agree.

Oneness Pentecostals and Jehovah's witnesses reject the Holy Trinity. The culpability of individuals in those groups (and others) depends on how much they know and what opportunities they have had to learn the truth. If an individual knows and understands a doctrine taught in scripture yet chooses to reject it then they are culpable and ought to expect to answer for their errors before God.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Oneness Pentecostals and Jehovah's witnesses reject the Holy Trinity. The culpability of individuals in those groups (and others) depends on how much they know and what opportunities they have had to learn the truth. If an individual knows and understands a doctrine taught in scripture yet chooses to reject it then they are culpable and ought to expect to answer for their errors before God.

That makes sense. Thanks for stating that. I am unsure that they have the ability to understand it, though....it seems like there is something blocking them from understanding, even after having long discussions with them. I think only the Holy Spirit can open their eyes.

 

[GingerBeer]

That makes sense. Thanks for stating that. I am unsure that they have the ability to understand it, though....it seems like there is something blocking them from understanding, even after having long discussions with them. I think only the Holy Spirit can open their eyes.

God knows exactly what a person understands and why they reject or accept what is true. That is sufficient for me. I do not see much value in pretending to know why a person thinks as they think. The gospel is a message to be delivered what a person does with it once it is delivered is up to them.