Is belief that Jesus is YHWH necessary for salvation?

[Baby Cottontail]

It means believing that God became a man, the man Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ is the Word of God who was with God and is God and who bears witness to the Father and who together with the Father sent the Holy Spirit to help people in their walk with God which leads to eventual salvation.

Okay -- then you actually do believe that believing that Jesus is YHWH is necessary for salvation.

Let me explain why -- if there is only one God,
and then say, "a person must believe that God became a man," you are actually saying that they have to believe that that one God became a man.

Again, I'm not saying a person has to call Jesus by the name of YHWH. But, if they believe that He is the God of the OT, then they do believe that He is YHWH, even if they never read the preface to their Bible to know that LORD = YHWH.

The question that I'm really asking is, is belief that Jesus is God (the same God that is in the OT) necessary for salvation?

 

[Baby Cottontail]

If they knowingly reject the Holy Trinity then they are in deep heresy and doomed by it to eternal separation from God and from his people.

You have just answered the intent behind my original post!!

That is exactly what I was asking when I asked if belief the Jesus was YHWH was necessary for salvation. (YHWH being God).

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Isaiah 53 doesn't say anything about the Lord and Savior (Messiah) who would free us from our sins being God.

John's gospel also makes it pretty clear the disicples didn't all believe the same thing. Some thought he was the prophet 'like Moses' promised in Deuteronomy 18, others thought he was the Messiah. Some thought he was both.Taking this into consideration, I have no problem thinking they didn't all believe in Jesus' divinity.

I don't know that any of them fully understood everything until after Jesus' resurrection. So what they understood before that time, and what they understood later, was different. You are right that at that time, they didn't all have the same exact views regarding Jesus.

You are right that Isaiah 53 doesn't say anything about the Messiah being God. However, not every passage in the Bible that talks about Jesus has to mention His deity.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

I'm pretty sure that John the baptist had the authority and calling of God from the womb. His baptism even had the authority to "FORGIVE SINS" according to scripture.

"MAR 1:4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. "

So, IMO, the question for believers should be; If people received forgiveness of sins from John's baptism, then why did Jesus even have to die? What's your answer?

I didn't mean to suggest that John the Baptist had no authority from God to conduct baptisms.

Because Jesus' death on the cross was still necessary to pay for everyone's sins. Jesus still had to pay the price. That's the only way people's sins could be forgiven.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

I see that you have already been responded to. just to say on Exodus 3:14 from the Greek Old Testament, "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", literally means "I am the Existing or Eternal One"., "ὤν" being in the "present, continuance".

When the Disciples saw Jesus walking on the water, they became afraid, and Jesus said to them, "ἐγώ εἰμι, μὴ φοβεῖσθε", literally, "Do not be afraid, ἐγώ εἰμι (I AM)" (Matthew 14:27)

In John's Gospel, when they came to arrest Jesus, we read:

"Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, ἐγώ εἰμι (I AM). And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, ἐγώ εἰμι (I AM), they went backward, and fell to the ground" (18:4-6)

I wasn't responded to in all the verses -- only one of them from Isaiah. No one has responded to any of the others that I asked about.

Thanks for these verses

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Hebrews 4:15 says Jesus was tempted, but James 1:13 says God cannot be tempted. 1Corinthians 8:6 says One God and one Jesus Christ; also John 8:17-18; Luke 24:39 syas Jesus is not a spirit but flesh and bone; Hosea 11:9 says God is not a man; Nor is God the son of man; Matthew 1:18 says Jesus was born, created; Romans 5:19 says One God, and one man; 1 Timothy 2:5 says one God and one Jesus, the mediator; John 20:17 says Your God and MY God; John 14:28 says the Father is Greater than Jesus; John 5:19 says Jesus can do nothing of himself; 1 Corinthians 15:28 says Christ is subject to God; Luke 18:19 says only one is good, GOD; 1 Corinthians 3:23 says the Head is God; Ephesians 1:20 says Christ will be seated on the right hand of God. Does it sound correct to say God will sit on the right hand of God?

None of this takes into consideration that Jesus was both fully God and fully human.

None of it takes into consideration that the Father is YHWH, the Son is YHWH, and the Holy Spirit is YHWH -- the whole triune God is YHWH.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Yes. I think so O_O

What about the verses at Jesus' baptism where it shows Jesus being baptized, the Holy Spirit descending on Jesus, and a voice from heaven speaking.....

 

[he-man]

None of this takes into consideration that Jesus was both fully God and fully human. None of it takes into consideration that the Father is YHWH, the Son is YHWH, and the Holy Spirit is YHWH -- the whole triune God is YHWH.

Look again, you must have missed it!

 

[Baby Cottontail]

It means believing that God became a man, the man Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ is the Word of God who was with God and is God and who bears witness to the Father and who together with the Father sent the Holy Spirit to help people in their walk with God which leads to eventual salvation.

Okay, then as I suggested before, you actually do believe that belief that Jesus is YHWH is necessary for salvation.

Since there is only one God, to suggest that belief that God became a man -- that means that you have to be talking about YHWH, even if you don't call Him YHWH.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

He is three in one. Before the incarnation He was Yahweh the Father, Yahweh the Word, and Yahweh the Spirit. Now He is Jesus the Father, Jesus the Word, and Jesus the Spirit with the addition of Jesus the perfect man.

I agree that YHWH is three in one.

However, I disagree with how you are conceiving of this. I would not attach the name Jesus to all three Persons. I would only attach that to the Son/the Word, and He is still God/YHWH.

The other two Persons are the Father and the Holy Spirit, which are both God/YHWH as well.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Look again, you must have missed it! View attachment 208850

You do realize that you aren't allowed to argue against the Trinity in this forum, right?

Since what you posted is clearly a copy and paste off of a unitarian website, and since what you posted isn't even allowed to be posted here, I'm not going to go through and argue against every single verse that you copy and pasted.

You posted a huge list of Scriptures, and then a copy and paste article with arguments against the Trinity on it. I've discussed some of this with non-Trinitiarnas before, and then their threads get shut down or deleted because they break the rules. It's way too much time and effort to go into refuting a list that already violates the forum rules....

I will say that due to the nature of the Trinity, it doesn't hurt the Trinity to only refer to one of them as the "only true God," because we can rightly say of each of the Persons "this is the only true God." We can also rightly say of the whole trinity, "this is the only true God."

I will also say that as both fully human and fully God, Jesus lived a human life while on earth. This necessarily limited Him, and put different demands on Him. He never stopped being fully God, though. Some people can explain this better than I can.

 

[he-man]

I didn't mean to suggest that John the Baptist had no authority from God to conduct baptisms. Because Jesus' death on the cross was still necessary to pay for everyone's sins. Jesus still had to pay the price. That's the only way people's sins could be forgiven.

God is immortal and cannot die. Jesus died and was in hell 2 1/2 days.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

God is immortal and cannot die. Jesus died and was in hell 2 1/2 days. View attachment 208854

Once again, Jesus is both fully human and fully God. He lived life as a human. He had to die a human death.

I'm not going to respond to any more of your posts because you are clearly coming into this thread in order to argue your Unitiarian position, which isn't allowed in this forum. You're just copying and pasting off of a Unitarian website, which doesn't make for a very good discussion, even if you were allowed to argue a non-trinitarian position here.

If you truly wanted to discuss, you would take each point by itself and wanted to talk about it. But as it is, you have posted a big list to try to prove your belief system.

I have addressed non-Trinitarian viewpoints in this thread, and not made a big deal about it violating the rules because they came with an actual discussion, and some of them might not have even realized that they held to a non-Trinitarian position. They didn't come on here with a big list with a clear agenda in mind.

 

[he-man]

Once again, Jesus is both fully human and fully God. He lived life as a human. He had to die a human death. I'm not going to respond to any more of your posts because you are clearly coming into this thread in order to argue your Unitiarian position, which isn't allowed in this forum. You're just copying and pasting off of a Unitarian website, which doesn't make for a very good discussion, even if you were allowed to argue a non-trinitarian position here. If you truly wanted to discuss, you would take each point by itself and wanted to talk about it. But as it is, you have posted a big list to try to prove your belief system.
I have addressed non-Trinitarian viewpoints in this thread, and not made a big deal about it violating the rules because they came with an actual discussion, and some of them might not have even realized that they held to a non-Trinitarian position. They didn't come on here with a big list with a clear agenda in mind.

OKAY! Where, then is your big or little list? I can give you 47. If discussion is not allowed then how are you getting away with just a one sided false view? P.S. I am not Unitiarian. I am just present to give both sides of the discussion.

 

[friend of]

What about the verses at Jesus' baptism where it shows Jesus being baptized, the Holy Spirit descending on Jesus, and a voice from heaven speaking.....

Jesus is usually the exception to eveyhing all the time

There are 2 ways of looking at the divine Godhead. The 3 are One Triune God (there is scripture to support this) or they are separate divinities. I am the former camp.

 

[klutedavid]

Look again, you must have missed it! View attachment 208850

Hello he-man.

I read point (20) in your attachment.

Luke 18:19
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Are you saying that Jesus was not good?

What sin did the Christ commit?

Jesus as the spotless sacrifice, also perfect love in human form, these two points alone are the proclamation of the Christ's pure divinity. Though the Word in human form is divinely humble, so many do not see the true light.

Will you confess that the Christ was not good?

 

[com7fy8]

if you were just speaking in general.

In general, I think I have seen how people can make a thing of saying Jesus is God, but they might not themselves appreciate who and how God is. And I consider that Jesus had the priority of showing us how God is, not only to have us know what label to put on Him.

I don't know you enough to make issues about you personally. But I always am sensing reasons to have issues about myself . . . in comparison with God's word and my good example people And in my posts here in Christian Forums, I bring out various issues . . . which, often enough, still apply to me; if you check a few, you will be able to see if I would have any issues about you

He that has seen me has seen the Father

John 14:9

Are you suggesting that Jesus is the Father by this?

There are people who say Jesus is the Father, but it is kind of hard for a Son to be His own Father . . . I would say. And now Jesus is making intercession for us > Romans 8:34. I understand and offer that intercession is between two Persons . . . two Persons of family caring and sharing love; the Son makes intercession to His Father.

Or are you suggesting that Jesus and the Father are linked to one another because they are the same God?

I think Jesus mainly means how seeing how Jesus is is the same as seeing how our Father is. It does not mean They are the same Person, but how each One is the same in nature as the other.

But, also, there is a scripture which I think more exactly means our Father and Jesus are connected > where Jesus says "'I and My Father are one.'" (John 10:30) This does not mean one Person, in number. But They have perfect union with each other, each being all God is who "is love." 1 John 4:8&16

And, even if we trust this, Baby Bunny, I think we all need to find out more how this love is and how we become because of sharing with God who is love. There are people who can say "God is love", but how are they living . . . loving . . . as their meaning of this? Or, I should say, how am I loving, as my meaning of this?

How we apply this is important, more than what labels we put on Jesus.

My opinion, though, is that if a person is erroneous about what we should call Jesus, then there can be other things which show up, in what the person understands and how the person is able to communicate about God's word, and how the person relates. Because if anyone . . . me or you or anyone . . . has something wrong, it could be the wrong spirit of this (Ephesians 2:2) can be effecting other things, also, including how we are in our character. So, in case someone is wrong about if Jesus is God, this can mean something significant which is deeper, about the person.

But, on the other hand, ones correct about Jesus being God can be in other ways wrong, including how I can be very swift to look down on people I don't agree with. This is not like how Jesus is. Jesus is the One so superior, but He is not conceited about this. But Jesus left Heaven itself in order to come to us. You ask >

What does it mean to believe Jesus is Jesus?

It includes that I appreciate how un-conceited Jesus is, even though He is so superior to all of us. I need to honor how Jesus is loving, by not self-righteously looking down on anyone, but have hope for any and all people, like how Jesus on the cross had hope for any evil person, at all, and care personally for people in prayer > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

 

[Neostarwcc]

Jesus was NOT created and born with a sinful nature. That is blasphemy! The reason Christ was sinless and wasn't born with a sinful nature is because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Born of a Virgin...etc. You know the story. Jesus was not created either he has always existed. One with the Father. Now and forevermore. Can I get an amen?

 

[Anguspure]

That is an interesting thought.

Is it necessary to believe that Jesus is the Messiah for salvation?

If so, it is a probably both/and situation -- where to believe in Jesus as the Messiah is also to believe in Him as YHWH (in Jesus' day.) And the reverse would also be true -- to believe Him as YHWH would also necessitate believing Jesus' words to be the Messiah.

I think that this is likely -- the two beliefs about Jesus go together in believing that Jesus is Savior.

After all, Jesus clearly claimed to be the Messiah as well, and He did make belief about Him as Messiah to be almost tied up in His identity as YHWH.

Yes but the even more important point is that none of this comes to a person through learning doctrine (although many may pretend) rather it comes by revelation from the Father through the Spirit. In other words as fellow believers it is our role to walk in Love with those who don't see things the same way and patiently allow the Spirit to do His work.
If we fail in this role then how can we expect anybody to change their mind?
It is certainly not our job to butt against the fellowship of believers, frightening many away with abstract academic truths.

 

[JoeP222w]

This topic came up in another thread, and I am interested in people's thoughts on this.

I am thinking that it definitely could be an issue of salvation because of the following verses:
John 8:24 (NASB)
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

This is a few verses before John 8:58 (NASB):
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

I suppose that Jesus could either be saying "unless you believe I am the Messiah," or "unless you believe I AM" (that He is YHWH.) I also don't know whether or not Jesus was thinking about the future -- where there might be some people who believed that He was the Messiah, but denied His deity.

And there is the question of -- if you do not believe that Jesus is YHWH, then do you really believe in Jesus? And do you really believe that He is Lord?

I realize that no one can for sure answer these questions except for God. Only God knows the salvation of each person.

Then there is Romans 10:8-13 (NASB):
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

The second quote that Paul used is from Joel 2:32, which says in the NASB:
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Since LORD = YHWH in the OT, it seems that he is calling Jesus YHWH here.

Maybe Paul was not thinking that there might be people who believed in Jesus, but denied that He was YHWH. Or maybe he considered belief that Jesus was YHWH to be necessary for salvation.

What do you think?

If one denies that Jesus is YHWH, then they are denying He is God and they are not walking in the truth and they do not have eternal life.