What is a pro-choice Christian?

[GirdYourLoins]

You have made a number of pro choice comments, so from my point if view tyou have a heart to allow the murder of unborn children.

Go do some research on what abortion actually involves and what some of the doctors who carry out the procedures say. Throwing abies with their hearts still beating in the bin, chopping living babies limb from limb to remove them and such like are not uncommon. Ignorance does not make murder acceptable.

As I said in an earlier comment, how do pro-choice people justify that a baby is not a living human being? Ask anyone who has had a miscarriage before the 24th week where abortions are allowed to in the UK where I am if they lost a baby or it was not a baby yet. My wife had 2 miscarriages and we certainly considered them babies. You cant pick and choose whether its a baby or not at a particular age.

For the pro-choice argument to stand up to scrutiny they should be saying to anyone that has a miscarriage before 24 weeks that it was not a baby yet, or that they are agreeing to the killing of babies. You cant have it both ways, logic would say that they have to be a baby or not be a baby, it doesnt change just because of the mothers choice to kill it or it being a natural death.

 

[FireDragon76]

It was legal for Nazis to murder Jews when Hitler was in power. According to your logic, the Holocaust wasn't murder because it was legal.

Comparing the slaughter of Jews to abortion disrespects the women's desired autonomy over their own bodies, and in turn the memory of those who died in the holocaust.

 

[A_Thinker]

You missed my point entirely. I was saying that pro-choice advocates are for choice when it comes to abortion, but anti-choice when it comes to how successful people should be able to spend their money.

Apparently, I know more about taxation than you do. Your straw man fallacy is ridiculous and uncalled for. Here in the US, income tax has a flat rate. A person who makes over $444,501 is taxed at 39.6% of his income. But someone who makes a dollar less than that amount is only taxed at 35%. Our unfair taxation system isn't like Canada's.

The poster you are responding to is correct.

All of your income is not taxed at the same rate.

A person who makes over $444,501 pays taxes at 39.6% of the $1.00 that falls into that higher tax bracket. The rest his income is taxed at lower rates. For instance, the first $18,000.00 of his income is only taxed at 10%.

So the difference in tax burden for someone who makes a dollar less than that amount is only 39 cents less ...

 

[Anguspure]

Comparing the slaughter of Jews to abortion disrespects the women's desired autonomy over their own bodies, and in turn the memory of those who died in the holocaust.

By the same token perhaps we should also respect the right of people to hold certain beliefs, even if those beliefs cause the death of many people.
The only reason nobody considers the memory of those who have been killed in utero is because nobody (apart from their murderers) met them.

 

[FireDragon76]

The only reason nobody considers the memory of those who have been killed in utero is because nobody (apart from their murderers) met them.

What memory? What is there to meet?

 

[FireDragon76]

Including killing that violates God's law.

Which says nothing about abortion.

 

[Anguspure]

What memory? What is there to meet?

Once upon a time it was me.

 

[FireDragon76]

Once upon a time it was me.

Why is the only consideration for the potential life of the embryo or foetus and not the actual life of the woman?

Clearly, there are many Christians who are not part of the "pro-life" movement (which I think is actually a misnomer and a misuse), such as myself. And we have our reasons, usually flowing out from different theological orientations and traditions.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

What memory? What is there to meet?

Say that to someone who has had a miscarriage.

 

[A_Thinker]

Honestly, I haven't thought about the subject of abortion for awhile.

As I had mentioned earlier, I supported supposed pro-life political candiadates for almost thirty years. I supported pro-life ministries for longer. I believe that the act of abortion, ... in being anti-life, is not an option (excluding some extenuating circumstances) for myself and mine, and those within my family/christian circles are aware of my discomfort with the practice of abortion.

I have been frustrated at the lack of political progress toward reversing Roe v. Wade, ... but I have been gratified by some efforts of pro-life ministries. For instance, there was a series of commercial spots centered around the theme of "Choose Life" that aired in the 90's, I believe. The spots were beautiful ... and, I think, served to change many hearts on the subject of abortion.

I haven't checked the stats lately, ... but the last time I checked, attitudes toward abortion were shifting in the pro-life direction. For me, the evil of abortion is confirmed in how "industrial" it can become. Also, due to the fact that the industry relied partially upon a "lack of information being provided to possible recipients. I mean, what medical procedure is deemed better, ... if its recipients are not well informed as to what it actually does ?

Despite this, ... I do recognize as worthy of consideration, those arguments on the other side. The hard cases (i.e. where the health of the mother could be compromised, ... or pregnancy that occurs as a result of rape, etc.) are not easily resolved. And, of course, politically, abortion just becomes another issue, mixed in with the good, bad, and otherwise, ... to advance the ambitions of politicians.

I don't believe that abortion should ever become a casual thing. I believe that the moral implications should be awesomely considered. OTOH, I realize that the 9 months between conception and birth is a period of some uncertainty for some people, ... and that even outlawing the procedure won't stop it.

Well ... that was cathartic, I believe. I have not, in a long while, given myself the permission to vent about my true feelngs on this subject. As I stated earlier, I don't think that it is an easy topic, and I think that we do God and others a disservice when we are simply dogmatic, rather than listening and persuasive. This is one subject which always deserves a thorough discussion, rather than just a repetition of talking points ...

 

[GirdYourLoins]

Why is the only consideration for the potential life of the embryo or foetus and not the actual life of the woman?

Clearly, there are many Christians who are not part of the "pro-life" movement (which I think is actually a misnomer and a misuse), such as myself. And we have our reasons, usually flowing out from different theological orientations and traditions.

So you think a baby is not a living person until 24 weeks? I keep asking people tojustify how they can say that but no one has done so yet that I have seen.

 

[FireDragon76]

So you think a baby is not a living person until 24 weeks? I keep asking people tojustify how they can say that but no one has done so yet that I have seen.

I just don't think of it in those terms. That's only looking at half of the "equation"- the life of the unborn.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

I just don't think of it in those terms. That's only looking at half of the "equation"- the life of the unborn.

So you are not prepared to think about it and provide a rational argument. Please explain how you justify that it is not deliberately killing a human being?

And for the record, the Hebrew word used in the commandment Do not kill/commit murder is rasah which has a widespread meaning relating to premeditated murder through to accidental manslaghter when used in different context. It seems fairly clear to me that there is no doubt that the commandment is not to take human life and when this is done deliberately the punishment is death.

The significance of the use of the word conceived in the Bible in multiple passages also seems to me to clearly show that this is where God considers life starts.

Do your own study on the use bible definition of the words murder and conceive.

Exodus 21:22-25 clearly shows that if people deliberately cause harm to an unborn child they shall pay life for life.

So please, give your reasons and try to prove to me why I am wrong.

And just imagine if abortion was available in Jesus time. He might never have been born.

 

[A_Thinker]

And just imagine if abortion was available in Jesus time. He might never have been born.

Oh, ... abortion was available in Jesus' time, though, perhaps, not sanctioned in Jewish society.

But, of course, ... God chose Mary ...

 

[FireDragon76]

And for the record, the Hebrew word used in the commandment Do not kill/commit murder is rasah which has a widespread meaning relating to premeditated murder through to accidental manslaghter when used in different context. It seems fairly clear to me that there is no doubt that the commandment is not to take human life and when this is done deliberately the punishment is death.

My religion considers it lawful for Christians to be soldiers or engage in vocations in which they might have to kill, so I consider the exact meaning of the Hebrew word irrelevant.

And just imagine if abortion was available in Jesus time. He might never have been born.

Lots of "what-if's" in your arguments.

 

[SPF]

Abortion is not a women's rights issue. It's simply not.

All of us agree that we have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But even those rights have limitations. For example, if I'm a kleptomaniac and my pursuit of happiness involves indiscriminately stealing from every store I walk into, there are laws in place to prevent that. My pursuit of happiness can be restricted. For people who break the law, they risk forfeiting their right to liberty either temporarily or permanently depending on their actions.It is even possible to forfeit your right to life by committing heinous acts of violence against another person.

Thus, attempting to justify abortion from a women's rights line of reasoning fails because there are times when our rights can be limited or temporarily, or permanently suspended.

In order to determine whether pregnancy is one of those times or not is going to be based upon our understanding of what the baby in the womb is.

The morality of abortion stands or falls with how we define the growing life inside a mother’s womb.

One of the primary reasons that laws exist is to protect others from harm. If the human being inside a womb is indeed a human being (which both science and Scripture support), then the right to life should trump the right to pursuit of happiness.

Statistically, over 98% of all abortions are committed for convenience sake. These abortions are morally wrong because the right to life trumps the right to our pursuit of happiness. At least, it does is 100% of every instance of law except abortion.

 

[MoonlessNight]

Comparing the slaughter of Jews to abortion disrespects the women's desired autonomy over their own bodies, and in turn the memory of those who died in the holocaust.

You've went on record as saying that murder is only a problem because it is illegal.

But then how would the holocaust be a problem? After all, it was perfectly legal under Nazi law, and so by your own standards wouldn't be murder.

(Of course, I see it as an atrocious injustice against God's law, but if you choose to go that route you lose your ability to say that abortion is fine because it is legal.)

 

[MoonlessNight]

Which says nothing about abortion.

The very earliest Christians saw abortion as abhorrent, as the Didache proves.

From that point Christian theology has consistently rejected abortion, up until the current degenerate age.

 

[SkyWriting]

You have made a number of pro choice comments, so from my point if view tyou have a heart to allow the murder of unborn children.

Go do some research on what abortion actually involves and what some of the doctors who carry out the procedures say. Throwing abies with their hearts still beating in the bin, chopping living babies limb from limb to remove them and such like are not uncommon. Ignorance does not make murder acceptable.

I was Pro-Life for about a decade and attended a couple
protests but I never chained myself to anything or set
off any bombs or shot any doctors. Thanks for thinking of me!

 

[GirdYourLoins]

My religion considers it lawful for Christians to be soldiers or engage in vocations in which they might have to kill, so I consider the exact meaning of the Hebrew word irrelevant.



Lots of "what-if's" in your arguments.

I'll withdraw the comment about Jesus, it has been pointed out that it was available. What I meant was if it was as readily available with the medical reliability and safety of modern medicine and the acceptance amongst large parts of society like today and they certainly didnt have our medical standards. But this comment can be ignored if you like. I hold my hands up and admit I made a flippant comment without checking that part of it out properly.

You consider the killing of soldiers in a war the same as killing unborn children? I cannot agree that people (old enough to know what they are doing) fighting each other is the same as killing a defenceless unborn child.

And you consider the meaning used by God in the Ten Commandments irrelevant? Not even trying to justify another meaning, just saying it is irrelevant. I rest my case.