How do you decide if something is factual?

[driewerf]

If you'd like to question & ridicule my standards, okay if I question and ridicule yours?

But I can't question and ridicule them if you don't post them.

Which is par for the course.

I havent' ridiculed your standards. I first asked why you kept nr 1 and 2 separated. Your answer ...

Because I want to show the Bible's superiority over science.

If I did it your way, someone might wonder:

"What if the Bible says one thing, and science says another?"

means that you keep them separated either to provoke a discussion or to show off. This is not ridiculing, just pointing out a fact, and hence that you don't use your boolean standards for evaluating the truth but for something else.
It might be painful for you to be confronted with this truth, or unpleasant that your little trick has been layed bare. But no ridicule was involved.

 

[driewerf]

All this stuff around us has one origin.
There is only one.

Really? I named already 4 different origins for my stuff (Taiwan for my laptop, France for my champagne, France and Italy for my wine, the Netherlands for my lightbulbs). And that's looking just a few seconds around. If I were to look a bit longer I'm sure i will find more.

But since you make the claim that there is one single origin for everything, please provide evidence for it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

My own preference is to take a belief I have and put it to the test. If I keep testing an idea and trying to prove it wrong, but every attempt to prove it wrong fails, then I consider that idea to be more and more factual.

How about you? How well have your methods worked in the past?

Essentially, I do what you do, Kylie; it's just that where religion is concerned, the results and outcomes are not guaranteed to be identical due to epistemological contingencies that neither you, nor I, can completely control.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Dirk1540]

@2PhiloVoid, wow what a dis on your Bones avatar, I don't think he even lasted 2 days lol

 

[pshun2404]

Between the Creationists and the Evolutionist (I hate to use that particular word, but...), there is a clear difference between what they consider to be factual. One group believes that some sort of creationism is factual, and the other group accepts the scientific account of the formation of the earth and the development of life as factual.

In this thread, I'd like to discuss how we reach our conclusions as to what is factual or not. Not to debate on whether creationism or evolution is factual, but how we arrive at our conclusions as to what is factual.

My own preference is to take a belief I have and put it to the test. If I keep testing an idea and trying to prove it wrong, but every attempt to prove it wrong fails, then I consider that idea to be more and more factual.

How about you? How well have your methods worked in the past?

That works fine for some things. Back when I had been among the vehement agnostic crowd for years I experienced a number of events/phenomena that defy testing and can only be laballed as "outside the natural order". Two of these were while in groups and the whole group shared the same experience and they involved physical reality.

After the first apparition experience I convinced myself I was dreaming. It was not until the final one (with others) that I finally broke down and admitted I had been incorrect for decades...there indeed is more to reality than just mass/energy. There IS a spiritual aspect to reality.

I am not crazy, do not do drugs, score in the middle of the bell curve on psychological tests, and have an IQ around 136 (not huge but higher than average). The factual REALITY of experience can never be denied by any who have had such experience. All testing is irrelevant.

Also there are a number of ways people think about approaching what they may have as a belief and the great majority are merely convinced and believe many things because everyone else says so (and that goes for all camps) or because to objectively consider alternatives would destroy their zietgeist.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

@2PhiloVoid, wow what a dis on your Bones avatar, I don't think he even lasted 2 days lol

....I like Bones, don't get me wrong. But, I also like to change things up as the mood hits me.

 

[JDD_III]

Almost nothing in biological science can be believed as factual. Those things with complete mathematical proofs might be, bit in biology it becomes most confident likelihood based on current knowledge and evidence, under base assumptions (e.g. all modern science operates under the basic assumption that there is a natural explanation for everything physical).

So I would think that if there was a God, outside our time-space, this God would know more and be privy to past and future. If that God said something was true then all the efforts of humans would be trumped by what that God said, unless that God was a liar.

Therefore, if you have a good reason to believe a truthful non-contingent God said something, that something is more factual than anything a human could posit.

 

[pitabread]

Because I want to show the Bible's superiority over science.

That doesn't make any sense though. It's like saying I want to show classical music's superiority over French cuisine.

They don't intersect.

 

[Dirk1540]

That works fine for some things. Back when I had been among the vehement agnostic crowd for years I experienced a number of events/phenomena that defy testing and can only be laballed as "outside the natural order". Two of these were while in groups and the whole group shared the same experience and they involved physical reality.

After the first apparition experience I convinced myself I was dreaming. It was not until the final one (with others) that I finally broke down and admitted I had been incorrect for decades...there indeed is more to reality than just mass/energy. There IS a spiritual aspect to reality.

I am not crazy, do not do drugs, score in the middle of the bell curve on psychological tests, and have an IQ around 136 (not huge but higher than average). The factual REALITY of experience can never be denied by any who have had such experience. All testing is irrelevant.

Also there are a number of ways people think about approaching what they may have as a belief and the great majority are merely convinced and believe many things because everyone else says so (and that goes for all camps) or because to objectively consider alternatives would destroy their zietgeist.

Are you referring to UFO group sightings? The amount of pilots and high ranking officials (in the know) who break their silence continues to mount. Of course it's all bogus for a lot of people until CNN confirms it.

And what is UFO activity?? What it is is these experiences of things that leave physical evidence at times, and these things dip into and out of our physical realm. Just like that they are gone!! Hmm sounds familiar, the Biblical spiritual realm insists that spirits and objects dip into and out of our physical realm. I don't see a need to even argue about things like what was the star of Bethlehem.

 

[pshun2404]

Are you referring to UFO group sightings? The amount of pilots and high ranking officials (in the know) who break their silence continues to mount. Of course it's all bogus for a lot of people until CNN confirms it.

And what is UFO activity?? What it is is these experiences of things that leave physical evidence at times, and these things dip into and out of our physical realm. Just like that they are gone!! Hmm sounds familiar, the Biblical spiritual realm insists that spirits and objects dip into and out of our physical realm. I don't see a need to even argue about things like what was the star of Bethlehem.

Not even close! What I am saying is that actual experience is fact. It is factual whether or not it can be tested and whether or not this or that group have not experienced it.

 

[AV1611VET]

That doesn't make any sense though. It's like saying I want to show classical music's superiority over French cuisine.

Does French cuisine tell classical music it is wrong?

And yet science tells the Bible it is wrong.

So French cuisine and classical music aren't very good examples.

 

[pshun2404]

In addition we must consider that there are three basic approaches to reasoning that lead to belief.

Deductive reasoning is when the data or facts or clues or premises are such that they lead to a definite answer. The conclusion cannot be avoided or denied.

Inductive reasoning is when the data or facts or clues or premises are such that the conclusions different people may reach are probable to a lesser or greater degree. But this does not guarantee they are 100% accurate.

Abductive reasoning is when the data or facts or clues or premises are such that our conclusion is judged to be inferred to be the best explanation (but may be entirely amiss). With form this we find people form conclusions based on the assumption that according to their perspective this best explains the data (but it often has a number of additional beliefs conditioning the conclusion reaching process that are associated with the interpretation they accept).

Is any of what you consider "factual" the result of any of these? Or perhaps a combination? Of course!

 

[Dirk1540]

Not even close! What I am saying is that actual experience is fact. It is factual whether or not it can be tested and whether or not this or that group have not experienced it.

Ok, what exactly were the 2 group experiences that you were referring to?

 

[pshun2404]

Ok, what exactly were the 2 group experiences that you were referring to?

For lack of space and not to divert the thread (since it is largely opinion) I will sharer the final one (not the last one ever) that spurred me on to seek answers.

One evening after closing up a settlement house (all the teens had left) the staff (about 6 of us) were sitting around talking when we heard the shower on the 2nd flr. start up. We thought perhaps one of the kids had hid out until we closed (assuming we were gone) OR perhaps a homeless person was hiding in the building.

We all got up and went upstairs. We knocked on the door and no one answered. We knocked and yelled and no one answered. The door was locked from the inside. The shower was on full.

Knowing there is no way out except passed us we sent Albert down to get the key and the rest of us waited right there at the door. Al returned and we unlocked the door. The shower immediately turned off the room was filled with steam. There was no one in there...the hot water faucet was tightly closed.

Now understand that hallucinations (if you are thinking that) do not take this physical form and NEVER happen to all people in a group the same. Hallucinations ALWAYS have personal elements. It happened and that is a FACT and it cannot be tested but was witnessed by more than one at that time. None of the three typical lines of reasoning can explain it and no natural explanation can account for the phenomena (which did in fact happen).

 

[Aman777]

This is the third time you've trotted out this weak argument against me, and the third time I have called you out on it. Do we really need to go through this again? Because I'm not going to waste my time. You obviously aren't here for any discussion, you are apparently just hear to make the same old refuted claims again and again and again!

False, ole all knowing one. Either produce your proof of your refute of my views or everyone will see you for what you really are. Amen?

 

[Aman777]

So fish are eternal creatures, but cattle are not?

No, since God the Trinity made both. They are Their kinds.

Gen 1:28 And God (Elohim-The Trinity) blessed them, and God (Elohim-The Trinity) said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

The above verse happens AFTER Jesus returns and gives us dominion or rule over all of God's creatures. You seem confused by His and Their kinds? Amen?

 

[Dirk1540]

For lack of space and not to divert the thread (since it is largely opinion) I will sharer the final one (not the last one ever) that spurred me on to seek answers.

One evening after closing up a settlement house (all the teens had left) the staff (about 6 of us) were sitting around talking when we heard the shower on the 2nd flr. start up. We thought perhaps one of the kids had hid out until we closed (assuming we were gone) OR perhaps a homeless person was hiding in the building.

We all got up and went upstairs. We knocked on the door and no one answered. We knocked and yelled and no one answered. The door was locked from the inside. The shower was on full.

Knowing there is no way out except passed us we sent Albert down to get the key and the rest of us waited right there at the door. Al returned and we unlocked the door. The shower immediately turned off the room was filled with steam. There was no one in there...the hot water faucet was tightly closed.

Now understand that hallucinations (if you are thinking that) do not take this physical form and NEVER happen to all people in a group the same. Hallucinations ALWAYS have personal elements. It happened and that is a FACT and it cannot be tested but was witnessed by more than one at that time. None of the three typical lines of reasoning can explain it and no natural explanation can account for the phenomena (which did in fact happen).

Especially the timing is eerie! The moment you opened the door the shower stopped.

While paranormal activity in the case of that 2nd floor bathroom can indeed be real, it doesn't tend to be as provable as UFOs due to the obvious difference of one event being in panoramic view of tons of people (just as far as argumentation for something being factual goes).

UFO sightings on the other hand have better converging lines of data sometimes which can significantly improve its credibility. Like multiple people from multiple towns flooding a police station with calls for instance. Or objects caught on radar, physical evidence applied towards an approaching jet, etc. But then they vanish without a trace. These UFOs dip into and out of our physical realm. Then can actually fluctuate their physical shape.

So it's not really a stretch to claim that this stuff happens 2 miles up in the sky, but can't also happen in that 2nd floor bathroom as well. But i just think it's way harder to present converging evidence for it being 'Factual' then in the UFO case. I have no clue why Christians don't embrace UFO activity. Is it not good proof for the spiritual realm? Apparently the spiritual realm is said to be even more active then our own realm.

 

[pitabread]

And yet science tells the Bible it is wrong.

No it doesn't.

 

[AV1611VET]

No it doesn't.

Yes it does.

 

[pshun2404]

Especially the timing is eerie! The moment you opened the door the shower stopped.

While paranormal activity in the case of that 2nd floor bathroom can indeed be real, it doesn't tend to be as provable as UFOs due to the obvious difference of one event being in panoramic view of tons of people (just as far as argumentation for something being factual goes).

UFO sightings on the other hand have better converging lines of data sometimes which can significantly improve its credibility. Like multiple people from multiple towns flooding a police station with calls for instance. Or objects caught on radar, physical evidence applied towards an approaching jet, etc. But then they vanish without a trace. These UFOs dip into and out of our physical realm. Then can actually fluctuate their physical shape.

So it's not really a stretch to claim that this stuff happens 2 miles up in the sky, but can't also happen in that 2nd floor bathroom as well. But i just think it's way harder to present converging evidence for it being 'Factual' then in the UFO case. I have no clue why Christians don't embrace UFO activity. Is it not good proof for the spiritual realm? Apparently the spiritual realm is said to be even more active then our own realm.

As for UFOs (though I have no solid opinion), UFO’s are a curious topic. If one thinks of space travel in only a mechanical sense, some beings able to travel here is seems unfathomable. With the viewing capabilities of today’s telescopes and computers and satellites wouldn’t we see them entering the atmosphere?

But why should we assume this is the only way they may travel? It is so un-economical! Sci FI has offered some interesting possibilities. And why not? Even many scientists speculate. Maybe they can transverse space dimensionally, or suspend time, or quantum leap like electrons...

Studies done in the 50s and early 60s by the US Air Force (Project Blue Book) were able to explain most claims, but when they were shut down in 1969 they had concluded that about 3% of the 12,618 cases could NOT BE explained. The cases they covered included sightings questioned or observed by groups of people not expecting what they saw, and also the reports of pilots. Some of the “explained” cases were simply referred to as Identified Flying Objects and thus not categorized as UFOs for the study. Perhaps these were experimental in nature.

So we do have many people through history (even before people thought there may be alien space creatures or crafts) in every culture that claim to have seen some unusual objects in the sky and in no time or culture have ALL seen these. We also know many are hoaxes and many people making the claim are fanatics who are making this stuff up but that does not mean they are not real or have not been observed. 3% of 12,617 is about 375 cases that even the US Government declared unexplainable by natural means though this itself does not prove they are other worldly. Finally none of this demonstrates they do not exist or that all people who have seen them are wackos or liars.