The worst thing about Calvinism

[thecolorsblend]

We are creatures. Being created was not our call. It was His. Your autonomy is a myth.

"Autonomy" and "free will" are different concepts. In a lot of cases, confusion over the challenges of free will can usually be resolved by defining what free will and autonomy mean. The doing of such usually dispels the confusion.

So you are quite right to say that any notion of us having personal autonomy is a myth. But the poster to whom you're replying seems to be referring to free will.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

"Autonomy" and "free will" are different concepts. In a lot of cases, confusion over the challenges of free will can usually be resolved by defining what free will and autonomy mean. The doing of such usually dispels the confusion.

So you are quite right to say that any notion of us having personal autonomy is a myth. But the poster to whom you're replying seems to be referring to free will.

Libertarian free will is a myth, as well.

Libertarian free will is the position that the unbeliever’s free will is sufficiently self-contained, self-sufficient, and self-caused (without external coercion) so as to be able to accept or reject Christ as Savior, on his own, apart from God's enabling. It assumes that the sinful will is somehow capable, by virtue of being "free", to be able to choose to believe in God and follow him through Christ.

First of all, this violates scripture which says that man is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20). Therefore, how is it possible that an unbeliever who cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), who does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), and who is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:14-20), simply "chooses" God?

Second, libertarian free will promotes the non-Christian idea of independence from God and suggests that the unbeliever's final decision to receive Christ is dependent on nothing than his own self-contained, self-caused, autonomous free will choice. Furthermore, this position attributes to a created thing (human free will) that which belongs only to the uncreated God: autonomous, self-sustained, self-causation.

And...
It would further mean that God's choice to regenerate a person would be based on the sinner's choice to accept Christ. In other words, God's choice of salvation is contingent on the sovereign, autonomous, free-will decision of any particular sinner. This means that God's choices are contingent on man's and this violates the doctrine of God's non-contingency.

Some would say that God looks into the future to see who would choose him. But this would mean that God was learning and t and this violates 1 John 3:20 that says a God knows all things.

Others say that since God knows all things, he knows what any particular choice will be of any sinner in any circumstance and works the circumstances to accomplish his will. But this defeats the libertarian position since it is God who is then predestining them for salvation based on the circumstances that he sovereignly decrees. It would also mean that God has chosen circumstances by which others would not be saved.

Still others say that God gives prevenient grace (grace that comes before) to people to enable them to freely choose him. But this is problematic because God would know how much grace to give to any individual to bring him into salvation. Furthermore, it still does not answer the question of why one person chooses and another does not after being given this "prevenient grace". If they the response is that it is because of a person's free will, then we go back to the first problem of advocating self-contained, self-sufficient, and self caused free will that is independent of God - and this is idolatrous.

Furthermore, if libertarian free will is true, then we would not have verses in the Bible that say that God grants us belief (Phil. 1:29), or "as many as God appointed to eternal life, believed," (Acts 13:48), or that our believing is the work of God (John 6:29), or that we cannot come to Jesus unless it has been granted to us from the Father (John 6:65).

Let's think...
​

1. 
   
   1. Autonomy - Libertarian Free will violates the autonomous character of God by making God's decisions regarding the salvation of people, conditioned upon sinful man's, sovereign, autonomous free will. God is then not autonomous in all his decisions but who he saves is dependent on peoples' free-will choice. Yet, the Bible says...
2. 1. John 1:12-13, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
   2. Rom. 9:16, "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
   3. Eph. 1:11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will." This demonstrates that God is self-willed and autonomous.

   1. Sovereignty - It m - It means that God is not sovereign over his creation to do as he wishes - including the free will choices of sinners, yet...
3. 1. Isaiah 46:10, “Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.’”
   2. Isaiah 55:8-9, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."
   3. Dan. 4:35, "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’"
   4. Acts 4:27-28, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."
   5. Acts 13:48, "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
   6. Rom. 9:16, "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
   7. Eph. 1:11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."
   • The Error of Libertarian Free Will

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Actually, no. God sets forth laws for man to obey. God gives man the choice to either obey or disobey. God is not at man's mercy because there will be a judgment. If they disobey, they will be punished. If they obey, they will be rewarded. God creates the laws and God administers justice. God is not at man's mercy. God provides mercy if man makes the right decision. God loves us and desires to have a loving relationship with us. True love. That is what it is all about. But one cannot have true love if love is forced upon them.



No. God did not override Paul's free will choice in regards to his personal salvation. God made Himself known to Paul, but this is not the same thing as God forcing His salvation upon him. We do not see Paul (Saul) acting like he was being possessed or taken over or anything.


...

God, the only autonomous being, would cease to be autonomous if your view were true, because He *re*acts, rather than acts. You have men leading and God following.

You can't take away His autonomy and give it to men without doing severe damage to the very nature of the Godhead.

Understand that *He* is the Potter, and *you* are the clay, and you will be in much agreement with Calvinists.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Does sin make God angry?

Romans 5: 13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

If a person is elected to be saved that is, set free from the law as found in Romans 7: 4, 6, sin is not imputed to that person.

 

[Si_monfaith]

That comment is predicated upon T as I've defined it. Removing that and we're left with a rather incoherent doctrine. Speaking of which...

If that's so, here we have another instance of Protestants disagreeing about their very own doctrines.

Notwithstanding, I've seen Protestant commentators aplenty outright say that T means man is fundamentally incapable of choosing God and, more specifically, choosing not sin. That is, sin has removed any possibility of man affirmatively choosing God of his own free human will.

The Catholic perspective is that sin does bend our will... but not absolutely so. Yes, the taint is undeniable. But it isn't comprehensive. We are affected by sin but we still retain some extent of our freedom.

Does sin bend the human will or rule man?

Romans 5:21: "That as sin hath reigned unto death".

Sin rules man.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Does sin bend the human will or rule man?

Romans 5:21: "That as sin hath reigned unto death".

Sin rules man.

It isn't absolute. Our freedom is not destroyed by sin; only compromised.

 

[Si_monfaith]

It isn't absolute. Our freedom is not destroyed by sin; only compromised.

Romans 7

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

 

[Si_monfaith]

This seems off topic but I will address them:

First off: Every knee will bow and “acknowledge” the existence of Christ as Deity, but that will not “save” those that go to hell. For those that go to hell accepting God charity would be like putting a gun to the person’s head and saying Love me or else. A forced Love is not a Godly type Love. They had their opportunity on earth to make a truly free will choice to accept or reject God’s charity and they refused, so that choice has been taken away from them. They will realize what they did and blame only themselves.

In Heaven you still have free will (like the angels, some of whom rebelled against God).

When you say: “Reject Christ”, what are you talking about, Christ is in your presence helping you in the form of the Spirit which you now can see and tough 24/7?

The tree of knowledge or something similar is not there to tempt you, satan is no longer around and you have experience with both sin and satan, so there is no temptation to learn about evil.

Lots of temptations can go back to the conflicts sexuality creates, yet that goes away by no longer being a sexual being.

God has given us everything, so what is there to covet?

To be like God comes with having Godly type Love (unselfish) like God, so do you desire to be even more unselfish (OK, but is that something to covet?)

Sin is needed on earth to help humans initially fulfill their earthly objective, so God does not arrange earth to be a place to avoid sinning, but sin is not needed in heaven, so everything is there to help you avoid sinning.

Romans 5

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The human will is not free. It is either ruled by sin or ruled by His grace.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Romans 7

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Would you care to offer your thoughts on those passages?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Would you care to offer your thoughts on those passages?

Sure. Please confirm that you are not a muslim but believe Jesus is the Son of God.

Just now I noticed the caption under your name.

Thanks.

 

[RisenInJesus]

God sent Jonah. Did the gentiles join by themselves without the Lord-given knowledge of atonement?

Not sure what your point is. I've never said I believe Gentiles joined by themselves without God giving some kind of knowledge or conviction.

 

[Si_monfaith]

The Bible is clear that God's wrath is completely satisfied in Christ, yet those who reject Christ and remain outside of Him do not have the righteousness of Christ applied to their life and therefore are not delivered from God's wrath. There is no contradiction and I find it astonishing that you do not comprehend this basic biblical reality.

Why do they reject Christ?


Saying, "I received salvation by the faith that I produced and so I am saved", or "I accepted Jesus as my Savior and so I am saved", is not faith. Such a witnessing does not glorify Jesus. Rather it glorifies man.

Saying, "Jesus elected me by His will to understand His work of redemption on the cross, gave me the assurance called faith and saved me" is faith. This kind of witnessing glorifies Jesus.

Thus faith glorifies Jesus by witnessing what "He" did rather than glorify the self by witnessing what man did, like the acts of believing and confessing.

 

[ClementofA]

Nobody is forced to be saved. To keep repeating that is disingenuous.

Do you believe salvation is by irresistible grace?

Do you believe the saving force of irresistible grace can be resisted?

Resistance is futile.

 

[Hammster]

Agreeing with your opponent is a tactic used to confuse your oponent.
I do not see how agreeing with your opponent in this case helps you.
You do not believe in free will in regards to a person choosing the Lord.
I have talked with Calvinists before and they freely admit to me there is no free will in choosing the Lord.
Not sure why you are not on the same page with them.

I do believe that we have free will in choosing to repent and obey (we don't "choose Jesus"). We just don't choose whether we are renerate or not (thank the Lord).

 

[Hammster]

So then God is honestly reacting in anger to man's sin. God is being influenced by what man does because man's sin makes Him angry. In other words, it would be like someone cutting you off in traffic and you get mad. Did not the person who cut you off make you mad? Did not their actions control or influence your emotions in some way?

God ordains. He doesn't react.

 

[Hammster]

The Bible is clear that God's wrath is completely satisfied in Christ, yet those who reject Christ and remain outside of Him do not have the righteousness of Christ applied to their life and therefore are not delivered from God's wrath. There is no contradiction and I find it astonishing that you do not comprehend this basic biblical reality.

I find it astonishing that you don't see the contradiction.

 

[Hammster]

The atonement in the OT was not limited. It was for the whole nation of Israel and all the people of Israel and anyone who joined themselves to Israel by faith.

So it was limited to those people.

Thanks. That's the point.

 

[Hammster]

Do you believe salvation is by irresistible grace?

Do you believe the saving force of irresistible grace can be resisted?

Resistance is futile.

I believe regeneration is irresistible.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Do you believe salvation is by irresistible grace?

Do you believe the saving force of irresistible grace can be resisted?

Resistance is futile.

Nebuchadnezzar was forced to know amid humiliation that blessings are given by God's will and not man's will. Heb 12:7,8.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Sure. Please confirm that you are not a muslim but believe Jesus is the Son of God.

Just now I noticed the caption under your name.

Thanks.

???

I'm registered here as a Catholic. Because I am a Catholic.