What does "except there come a falling away first" in 2 Thess. 2:3 mean?

[jgr]

The Greek word APOSTASIA" iin the context of the two epistles of Paul, of 1st and 2nd Thess, mean TO DEPART or DEPARTURE. From another source confirming it.

The true meaning of the Greek word apostasia in II Thessalonians 2:3 cannot be overlooked or ignored any longer by the Christendom faith; we have a spiritual obligation to search the Scriptures as we study it in its context. One must understand that the translators of Scriptures were not the writers neither the ones who received the revelation through the words given them. In other words, they were only translators. The translator cannot accurately interpret the true sentiments of an expression found in a language which is original only to that culture. Language is very much entangled in the culture of the people. An example of it is the idiom style found in every language, which is an accepted phrase construction, or expression contrary to the usual patterns of the

language, or having a meaning different from the literal(Webster Dictionary). The Word of God has come to us with interpretation and choices of certain words that are not always clear to our understanding, and sometimes not agreeing with the context as in II Thessalonians chapter two: But relative to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we beg you, brethren, not to allow our minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some revelation of Spirit or by word or by letter from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has arrived and is here. Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, who is the son of doom. . . Do you not recollect that when I was still with you, I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining him; it is so that he may be manifested in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work in the world,[but it is ] restrained only until he who restrains is taken out of the way, and then the

lawless one will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming (vs. 1-3, 5- 8). This chapter would be very assuring in the hope of our salvation from the tribulation if the word, apostasy was translated in agreement with the context of the chapter. The Greek word apostasy is a compound word, “apo” –from and “istemi”- stand. So we see here that the fundamental meaning is “away from or departure”. Let’s put these verses in perspective in the order of events which Paul mentioned using the word departure in verse three and we will see that the subsequent verses, 6-8 will agree, establishing the same order of events. “The departure Paul previously referred to was ‘our being gathered to Him’ (v.1) and

our being ‘caught up’ with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds “( I Thessalonians 4:17) an insight from Scripture clearly opening our eyes of understanding by Dr. Gordon R. Lewis. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary in a letter to Schuyler English has said the following concerning this matter: I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses 7-8, a little further down. According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the dentical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of

"departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as "falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the man of sin.[11] Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. So we have here in verse three the departure of the church before the Lawlessness one is revealed; and in verses seven and eight Paul repeats the sequence, the removal of the church and the revealing of the wicked one. When the word apostasy is used in the meaning of “falling away” it breaks the connection in its meaning. In the History of the translation of the word apostasia we learn from Dr. Thomas Ice the following: The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun

as either "departure" or "departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means "departure." In fact, Jerome's Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of a.d. 400 renders apostasia with the "word discessio, meaning 'departure.'"[6] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"? Here is the summary of the ways apostasia means rapture in II Thessalonians 2:3 from Online Bible Study: 1. The parallel between verse 3 and 7-8, showing the antichrist is revealed after the rapture. 2. Words With Similar Definitions: methormizô, remove from one anchorage to another 3. Words With Similar Definitions: metex-anistamai, Pass., move from one place to another 4. Apostasia is translated as "Dissecto" in Latin, which has a meaning of a "spacial departure". 5. Apostasia is translated as "departure" in many Bibles. 6. Liddell and Scott Dictionary authors note

Apostasia is translated as "spacial departure" in one case in the 6th century. 7. metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to fall away" 8. metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to depart" 9. metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both signify "change" as the rapture is a change. 10. metathesis, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both (in the word it's derrived from, aphistemi) can both mean "to remove". 11. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo (rapture in 1 Thess 4:17), can both mean "to take" 12. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to seize" 13. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to snatch away" 14. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, also carries the meaning "to marry, take a wife" which is a strong rapture parallel

For the rest of the article:

http://www.lightfromtheword.org/upload/Apostasia or Departure.pdf



Quasar92

Go persuade the Reformers, the Greeks, the NASB translators at the Lockman Foundation, and every other English Bible translator in existence. Then we can talk.

 

[Hal A Peno]

ccc

 

[2Timothy2:15]

The KJV English phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, is the one Greek word "apostasia", and its basic meaning is to "depart from" or "go away".

It does not mean to go away, that is not included in any definition. It means to "depart" from sound doctrine.

apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

 

[Instrument150]

This passage has been the subject of much controversy, as to whether this speaks of a period of great "apostasy", or whether it refers to the "departure", or "Rapture" of the Church.

I believe the KJV phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, refers to the "departure", or "Rapture" of the Church.

The KJV English phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, is the one Greek word "apostasia", and its basic meaning is to "depart from" or "go away".

The Greek word "Apostasia" is a compound of two Greek words: "Apo" = "to move away", "stasis" means "standing or state", or "to stand".

Literally, from its basic definition, "apostasia" means "to go away from", or "depart", or "change state or standing from one state to another".

"Apostasia" was used in extra Biblical Greek literature to describe political revolt, or a "going away from the establishment" and in the Septuagint, or Greek Old Testament, when the Jews would "go away" from God to worship other gods.

"Apostasia" is only used one other time in the New Testament, in Acts 21:21 to describe "forsaking", or "going away from" the teachings of Moses.

"Apostasion", the noun form, appears in Matt 5:31, & 19:7, and Mark 10:4 where it describes a "writing of divorcement", or "papers that separate". (Again, so someone can go away).

"Apostasia" literally then means "to depart, or go away from", and to "go away from what" must be determined from the context.

So, what is the "context" of both the First and Second Epistle to the Church at Thessalonica? The sole subject and context of both epistles is the "Rapture", or "Departure" of the Church, or "the called out ones," and advice to the Church while we await the Return of Christ for the Church. The Second letter to the Church at Thessalonica appears to have been written by Paul to clear up misunderstandings about his First Letter. (2 Thess. 2:1-5)

The Greek word "apostasia" in 2 Thess. 2:3 also has the Greek article "the" in front of it, in the Greek text, which makes it, not a general "going away", or "departure", but "The Departure", a special EVENT, that the reader is expected to already know about.

In other words, the use of the article "the" with "apostasia" in 2 Thess. 2:3 indicates that Paul expects the Thessalonian Christians to already understand that this is the title of an event, and he expects them to already know what it means.

Had the Apostle Paul already taught the Thessalonians about an "EVENT" that could be described as a "departure", or "going away"? Absolutely, yes.

Paul had already taught the Thessalonian Church about the EVENT, of the Catching Away and "Departure" of the Church in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

In 2 Thess 2:5, Paul says don’t you remember? When I was with you I taught you about these things?

I don't see where Paul taught them at all about "a falling away from the truth" in his first letter, but he taught them about the Rapture of the church in at least five passages in 1st Thessalonians:

1. 1 Thess 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,[even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

2. 1 Thess 2:19 "For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?"

3. 1 Thess 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

4. 1 Thess 4:13 - 5:10:

Verse 13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Chapter 5

Verse 1 But of the times and the seasons (dispensations), brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord (Tribulation and Second Advent) so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when THEY shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and THEY shall not escape.

4 But YE, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake YOU as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, (The Tribulation is God's Wrath upon the earth) but to obtain salvation (Greek "sodzo" or "safety") by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
5. 1 Thess 5:23 " And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Also, in Paul's second letter to the Thessalonian Church, in 2 Thess. 2:2, we find that someone had apparently written a letter to the Thessalonian Church saying that the "Day of Christ", the Rapture, was past, in other words, they had missed it, and now they were in the "Day of the Lord", or seven year Tribulation.

In 2 Thess 2:1-5, Paul is proving that they have not missed the Rapture and were now in the Tribulation, but that the Rapture is still future. Paul says:

1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (the Rapture of the Church).

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (Rapture of the Church) is at hand. ("at hand" is a Greek "perfect tense" verb, meaning the Rapture has already happened and is in the past - that would mean they missed the Rapture and are now in the Tribulation).

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come] (this phrase is not in the Greek, but is added by the translators. The Greek "ean may" = "that cannot happen"), except there come a falling away first, (THE Departure of the Church, first) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (and Antichrist revealed).

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

In the above verses, Paul tells them "that cannot happen", TWO things must occur before the "day of the Lord", or 7 year Tribulation, arrives, #1 "THE departure" first, and #2 "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition".

So, I believe Paul proves to the Church at Thessalonica that they are not in the "Tribulation", as someone had written them, because the Seven Year Tribulation cannot begin until the "Rapture" of the Church occurs and the "man of sin", the "Antichrist" is revealed.

If Paul had been referring to a "general falling away from the truth", it would have "proved" nothing to the Church at Thessalonica, because there was "apostasy" at the time, and there have been, and will continue to be great periods of falling away from the truth throughout the Church Age.

Every reference, that I find, to the "catching away" of the living saints, is described as "imminent", and can happen at any moment - there is no prophesy to be fulfilled before the Rapture can occur.

Think about it, if the "falling away" Paul refers to is a distinct period of "apostasy", of "falling away from the truth", and the world has now been through the "Dark Ages", when Christians were persecuted and Bibles were burned, then Paul would mean "THE period of falling from the truth" that is worse and more defined than the Dark Ages - and it would still be in the future, and the Rapture could not occur until it comes! That does not fit God's revealed plan for earth and mankind.

To me, "The Departure" of 2 Thess 2:3 is the exact opposite of "falling away" from God’s truth. This is in a context of the "Rapture of the Church", the "day of Christ", the Day when Jesus will return, in the air, below the highest mountain top, and catch the Church (all the born again Christians in the world) up into the air, and take them to the Third Heaven.

In 2 Thess 2:5, Paul says don’t you remember when I was with you I taught you about these things? - and the subject of Paul's First Letter is "The Departure of the Church", from this earth to our Father in heaven, according to Jesus promises to us in Jn.14:1-4 and 28.

By: Bob Jones


So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.

Translation History

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " [6] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.?

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given.


Quasar92

I feel like it refers to the Dark Ages of history, when the lights went out on the Original conversion of Rome after many conquests, and paganism was introduced as a subtle trick. The greek religions from which they came demanded lavish items that represented artistic expressions of their gods. The people still loved these statues. They were reintroduced and renamed.

It wasn't until those ( 12? ) scholars were sent off to a HIDDEN DUNGEON to protect them from warring pharisees to translate the King James Bible that we have today. That's really why I love it so much, because of the measure that had to be taken to get it done. Today it's easy to just sit down and translate something into a modern dialect and just say, alright here go, let's get some money from'yins

 

[toLiJC]

This passage has been the subject of much controversy, as to whether this speaks of a period of great "apostasy", or whether it refers to the "departure", or "Rapture" of the Church.

I believe the KJV phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, refers to the "departure", or "Rapture" of the Church.

The KJV English phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, is the one Greek word "apostasia", and its basic meaning is to "depart from" or "go away".

The Greek word "Apostasia" is a compound of two Greek words: "Apo" = "to move away", "stasis" means "standing or state", or "to stand".

Literally, from its basic definition, "apostasia" means "to go away from", or "depart", or "change state or standing from one state to another".

"Apostasia" was used in extra Biblical Greek literature to describe political revolt, or a "going away from the establishment" and in the Septuagint, or Greek Old Testament, when the Jews would "go away" from God to worship other gods.

"Apostasia" is only used one other time in the New Testament, in Acts 21:21 to describe "forsaking", or "going away from" the teachings of Moses.

"Apostasion", the noun form, appears in Matt 5:31, & 19:7, and Mark 10:4 where it describes a "writing of divorcement", or "papers that separate". (Again, so someone can go away).

"Apostasia" literally then means "to depart, or go away from", and to "go away from what" must be determined from the context.

So, what is the "context" of both the First and Second Epistle to the Church at Thessalonica? The sole subject and context of both epistles is the "Rapture", or "Departure" of the Church, or "the called out ones," and advice to the Church while we await the Return of Christ for the Church. The Second letter to the Church at Thessalonica appears to have been written by Paul to clear up misunderstandings about his First Letter. (2 Thess. 2:1-5)

The Greek word "apostasia" in 2 Thess. 2:3 also has the Greek article "the" in front of it, in the Greek text, which makes it, not a general "going away", or "departure", but "The Departure", a special EVENT, that the reader is expected to already know about.

In other words, the use of the article "the" with "apostasia" in 2 Thess. 2:3 indicates that Paul expects the Thessalonian Christians to already understand that this is the title of an event, and he expects them to already know what it means.

Had the Apostle Paul already taught the Thessalonians about an "EVENT" that could be described as a "departure", or "going away"? Absolutely, yes.

Paul had already taught the Thessalonian Church about the EVENT, of the Catching Away and "Departure" of the Church in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

In 2 Thess 2:5, Paul says don’t you remember? When I was with you I taught you about these things?

I don't see where Paul taught them at all about "a falling away from the truth" in his first letter, but he taught them about the Rapture of the church in at least five passages in 1st Thessalonians:

1. 1 Thess 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,[even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

2. 1 Thess 2:19 "For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?"

3. 1 Thess 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

4. 1 Thess 4:13 - 5:10:

Verse 13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Chapter 5

Verse 1 But of the times and the seasons (dispensations), brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord (Tribulation and Second Advent) so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when THEY shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and THEY shall not escape.

4 But YE, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake YOU as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, (The Tribulation is God's Wrath upon the earth) but to obtain salvation (Greek "sodzo" or "safety") by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
5. 1 Thess 5:23 " And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Also, in Paul's second letter to the Thessalonian Church, in 2 Thess. 2:2, we find that someone had apparently written a letter to the Thessalonian Church saying that the "Day of Christ", the Rapture, was past, in other words, they had missed it, and now they were in the "Day of the Lord", or seven year Tribulation.

In 2 Thess 2:1-5, Paul is proving that they have not missed the Rapture and were now in the Tribulation, but that the Rapture is still future. Paul says:

1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (the Rapture of the Church).

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (Rapture of the Church) is at hand. ("at hand" is a Greek "perfect tense" verb, meaning the Rapture has already happened and is in the past - that would mean they missed the Rapture and are now in the Tribulation).

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come] (this phrase is not in the Greek, but is added by the translators. The Greek "ean may" = "that cannot happen"), except there come a falling away first, (THE Departure of the Church, first) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (and Antichrist revealed).

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

In the above verses, Paul tells them "that cannot happen", TWO things must occur before the "day of the Lord", or 7 year Tribulation, arrives, #1 "THE departure" first, and #2 "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition".

So, I believe Paul proves to the Church at Thessalonica that they are not in the "Tribulation", as someone had written them, because the Seven Year Tribulation cannot begin until the "Rapture" of the Church occurs and the "man of sin", the "Antichrist" is revealed.

If Paul had been referring to a "general falling away from the truth", it would have "proved" nothing to the Church at Thessalonica, because there was "apostasy" at the time, and there have been, and will continue to be great periods of falling away from the truth throughout the Church Age.

Every reference, that I find, to the "catching away" of the living saints, is described as "imminent", and can happen at any moment - there is no prophesy to be fulfilled before the Rapture can occur.

Think about it, if the "falling away" Paul refers to is a distinct period of "apostasy", of "falling away from the truth", and the world has now been through the "Dark Ages", when Christians were persecuted and Bibles were burned, then Paul would mean "THE period of falling from the truth" that is worse and more defined than the Dark Ages - and it would still be in the future, and the Rapture could not occur until it comes! That does not fit God's revealed plan for earth and mankind.

To me, "The Departure" of 2 Thess 2:3 is the exact opposite of "falling away" from God’s truth. This is in a context of the "Rapture of the Church", the "day of Christ", the Day when Jesus will return, in the air, below the highest mountain top, and catch the Church (all the born again Christians in the world) up into the air, and take them to the Third Heaven.

In 2 Thess 2:5, Paul says don’t you remember when I was with you I taught you about these things? - and the subject of Paul's First Letter is "The Departure of the Church", from this earth to our Father in heaven, according to Jesus promises to us in Jn.14:1-4 and 28.

By: Bob Jones

So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.

Translation History

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " [6] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.?

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given.

Quasar92

there is no difference between "departure" and "falling away", because the matter at hand in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the Fall(original sin) i.e. betrayal of God, to be more precise, replacement of the true God with another (which is the cause of the Fall) - it is spiritual lawlessness/wickedness

Blessings

 

[Alithis]

I believe the KJV phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, refers to the "departure", or "Rapture" of the Church.

I read this and I just cringe...
I mean ....
Ugh.
Good grief .

 

[Quasar92]

Q,

You're so full of copy and paste it's obvious you let others do your thinking for you.

FYI, what I cut and paste comes from the data bank of Christian material I have compiled over the past 20 years at my website. Most of which comes from my own composition. In addition to that, I began my studies of the Bible 80 years ago abd earned my qualifications to teach the Bible in between serving in the USAAF Air Corp during WWII. Two years of which was in the Pacific/Asiatic theater.

And by what authority do you assume the right to be judging and denigrating me with your meaningless opinion. Having been a participant on Christian discussion forums for nearly 20 years, it is a common practice for those who are unable to field Scripturally based support for their views, to start attacking their opponent personally, just as you are doing.

As such, if you are unable to contribute to the subject of the thread, then stay out of the kitchen, where it gets too hot for you to handle.


Quasar92

 

[Douggg]

In addition to that, I began my studies of the Bible 80 years ago

For that reason, I must call you "sir"......... but Q, I don't think you have it right of the falling away as being the rapture. In Hebrews 6:4-6, it has falling away there as well, but it is obviously not referring to the rapture.

imo, the rapture is in 2thessalonians2, but it is not the falling away. It is the he being taken out of the way, before the person commits the transgression of desolation act in 2thessalonians2:4, in verses 2:7 and 2:8

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The body of Christ taken away, as we are not appointed to that time of wrath when the Day of the Lord begins - following the person going into the temple sitting claiming to be God.

Q, the criteria is before the person commits the act, revealing himself as the man of sin, not before the falling away that will precede that act.

However, that does not exclude a pre-trib rapture. The rapture could happen pre-70th week (pre-trib commonly called), but not necessarily. The rapture can take place any time - between now and when it actually happens.
.

 

[Quasar92]

Go persuade the Reformers, the Greeks, the NASB translators at the Lockman Foundation, and every other English Bible translator in existence. Then we can talk.

The Scriptures, the context of that passage of Scripture and the historic translation of it, provided for you many times over - all refute you. I can also prove you to be in error by going to all of those you have invited me to do so. No matter how long and hard you try to alter the meaning of 2 Thess.2:1-8 from Paul's reference to it as a rapture of the Church, to a falling away of it, will never happen. Only to those of you who refuse to admit the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul about the coming pre-trib rapture of the Churc, calling them all liars.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

For that reason, I must call you "sir"......... but Q, I don't think you have it right of the falling away as being the rapture. In Hebrews 6:4-6, it has falling away there as well, but it is obviously not referring to the rapture.

imo, the rapture is in 2thessalonians2, but it is not the falling away. It is the he being taken out of the way, before the person commits the transgression of 2
The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

Q, the criteria is before the person commits the act, revealing himself as the man of sin, not before the falling away that will precede that act.

However, that does not exclude a pre-trib rapture. The rapture could happen pre-70th week (pre-trib commonly called), but not necessarily. The rapture can take place any time - between now and when it actually happens.
.

Doug, you and others are not paying attention to the historic translation record of 2 Thess.2:3. Because very few of you are even aware of it. Paul was teaching the Thrssalonians about the rapture of the Church, in both his epistles; in 1 Thess.4:13-18 and in 2 Thess.2:1-8. None of which has a single thing to do with the Church "falling away." Review the following to see how DEPARTURE in verse three, harmonizes with "TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY," in verse 7 below:

>>>2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.<<<


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

there is no difference between "departure" and "falling away", because the matter at hand in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the Fall(original sin) i.e. betrayal of God, to be more precise, replacement of the true God with another (which is the cause of the Fall) - it is spiritual lawlessness/wickedness

Blessings

Review my post #30.


Quasar92

 

[Douggg]

Doug, you and others are not paying attention to the historic translation record of 2 Thess.2:3. Because very few of you are even aware of it. Paul was teaching the Thrssalonians about the rapture of the Church, in both his epistles; in 1 Thess.4:13-18 and in 2 Thess.2:1-8. None of which has a single thing to do with the Church "falling away." Review the following to see how DEPARTURE in verse three, harmonizes with "TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY," in verse 7 below:

Q, it is not the church falling away, you are mis-packagng it. It will a falling away by many in Christianity Falling away was happening in 1John, when John began talking about already being many "antichrists" - they were once part of us, John said.

 

[Quasar92]

Q, it is not the church falling away, you are mis-packagng it. It will a falling away by many in Christianity Falling away was happening in 1John, when John began talking about already being many "antichrists" - they were once part of us, John said.

Paul is referring to the Church.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

It does not mean to go away, that is not included in any definition. It means to "depart" from sound doctrine.

apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Review my post #30. Paul is referring to the Church.


Quasar92

 

[Douggg]

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The Day of the Lord does not begin at the start of the seventieth week, but somewhere in the middle of it. And there is no 7 year tribulation term in the bible. Reference to the great tribulation is in Matthew 24 and Revelation 7.

Q, the any time rapture view, based on Luke 21:34-36, allows for a pre-trib rapture, but is not locked in to the rapture must happen before the 70th week begins. The problem with the pre-trib, post-trib views is they both say the rapture can't happen except as their view holds.

In 2thessalonias2, Paul was addressing primarily the concern that the Thessalonians had the Day of the Lord had begun. You won't find anything in the text referring to the 70th week. I agree though that in verse 1, Paul was referring to the Rapture. Which to me is in verse 7 and 8, and not the falling away verse 3.

The problem is Q is your trying to weave the 70th week being into the text as being the Day of the Lord to make it pre-trib (pre-70th week), but it is just not there. The Day of the Lord starts in the middle part of the 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

Paul is referring to the Church.


Quasar92

The church is not going to fall away from believing in Jesus. It is persons within Christianity, that will fall away. Both John and the writer of Hebrews addressed there being a falling away of some persons.

The implication is that the falling away will be of such large magnitude, it will be something overwhelmingly observable.... and connected to the person who reveals himself as the man of sin. Something the Thessalonians hadn't observed in their day

 

[Douggg]

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.<<<

Q, when the person confirms the covenant with many in Daniel 9:27, he will not be in the role of the revealed man of sin at that time.... because that act which reveals him is going into the temple and claims to be God.

When the person confirms the covenant for 7 years, he will be thought to be the messiah - not the man of sin -

 

[Erik Nelson]

I currently understand that one should distinguish between the "[Second] Coming of Christ" event (Rev 19) and the "Coming of The LORD" (Rev 20).

Rapture, Resurrection unto Final Judgement at the Opening of the Book of Life before the Great White Throne (Rev 20) only occurs at the LORD's Arrival (Rev 20) after the Millennium (Rev 20:1-6) and End Times (Rev 20:7-9).

According to Scripture, human history is Fated to be "repetitive" with cycles of tribulation - to - triumph which are qualitatively similar. But while the "[Second] Coming of Christ" event (Rev 19) brings about a major political change upon planet earth, the "Coming of The LORD" event (Rev 20) brings about the end of earth time and a "new heaven & new earth". They thusly represent quite different quantitative scales of Heavenly influence in earth history.

 

[Quasar92]

Q, when the person confirms the covenant with many in Daniel 9:27, he will not be in the role of the revealed man of sin at that time.... because that act which reveals him is going into the temple and claims to be God.

When the person confirms the covenant for 7 years, he will be thought to be the messiah - not the man of sin -

The three "he's" in Dan.9:27 is the Antichrist, not Jesus. Jesus never made any seven year covenants. In addition, Dan..9:27 is prophecy, not history.


Quasar92

 

[Douggg]

The three "he's" in Dan.9:27 is the Antichrist, not Jesus. Jesus never made any seven year covenants. In addition, Dan..9:27 is prophecy, not history.


Quasar92

No, not Jesus, but the person is not the revealed man of sin when he (as the Antichrist) confirms the covenant with many for 7 years. In the midst of the week, when he stops the daily sacrifice - that is when he is revealed as the man of sin - right?

The person is only the Antichrist while he is in the role of being the King of Israel (illegitimate).

Q, it is extremely important as to how we refer to the person.

1. starts off as the little horn (not yet the Antichrist)
2. becomes the prince who shall come, who is anointed
3. the king of Israel, making him the Antichrist
4. stops the daily sacrifice, does the 2thessalonians2:4 act, revealed as the man of sin. ends his time as the Antichrist, no longer the King of Israel, thought to be messiah.
5. becomes the beast of Revelation

______________________________________________________________

Q, I am going to annotate when the falling away of 2theesalonians2:3 is going to take place...


1. starts off as the little horn (not yet the Antichrist)
2. becomes the prince who shall come, who is anointed
3. the king of Israel, making him the Antichrist (the falling away takes place at this time, as many in Christianity will think the jews were right all along)
4. Oh no! Thought to be messiah stops the daily sacrifice, does the 2thessalonians2:4 act, revealed as the man of sin. Jews are mortified, ends his time as the Antichrist, no longer the King of Israel, thought to be messiah.
5. becomes the beast of Revelation