Quoting Calvin

[Hammster]

Well, if Christ didn't die for "unbelievers" I guess He didn't die for anyone then.

I didn't say that. But I should be clearer. There's no mention in any evangelism in the NT that Christ died for all. In other words, that's not how the gospel is presented. So trying to pretend that it's how Paul presented it to the Corinthians is just that...pretend.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

It was a simple request. All of this smokescreen doesn't change the fact that nowhere is there any mention to unbelievers that Christ died for them.

Scripture isn't a smokescreen, it's quite clear. Your repeating question, however, is a deflection and doesn't invalidate scripture.

Questions of the type "show me where specific person x does specific thing y to specific group z" have little value in Bible study.

It's like someone asking "show me where Jesus told someone homosexuality was a sin" to deflect from scripture showing homosexuality is a sin. Or like the person asking, "where specifically does the Bible say "Trinity" or "show me where Jesus Himself directly claims to be God" to deflect from verses proving that Jesus is God.

Any study should focus on what the Bible says, not ignore what scripture says unless it fits a specific personal wishlist. If The verse says Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, not just believers, then it is God-breathed and the 'audience' doesn't change the teaching that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just the sins of believers.

Paul speaking of his past preaching of the gospel that Jesus died for our sins to the Corinthians before they had received the gospel is clearly a case of unbelievers in the past having been told that Christ died for their sins. That Paul is speaking to those Corinthians who did receive that gospel, and not at the moment to those who did not receive it, doesn't change the content of the gospel which he had first preached to them.

 

[Truthfrees]

Scripture isn't a smokescreen, it's quite clear. Your repeating question, however, is a deflection and doesn't invalidate scripture.

Questions of the type "show me where specific person x does specific thing y to specific group z" have little value in Bible study.

It's like someone asking "show me where Jesus told someone homosexuality was a sin" to deflect from scripture showing homosexuality is a sin. Or like the person asking, "where specifically does the Bible say "Trinity" or "show me where Jesus Himself directly claims to be God" to deflect from verses proving that Jesus is God.

Any study should focus on what the Bible says, not ignore what scripture says unless it fits a specific personal wishlist. If The verse says Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, not just believers, then it is God-breathed and the 'audience' doesn't change the teaching that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just the sins of believers.

Paul speaking of his past preaching of the gospel that Jesus died for our sins to the Corinthians before they had received the gospel is clearly a case of unbelievers in the past having been told that Christ died for their sins. That Paul is speaking to those Corinthians who did receive that gospel, and not at the moment to those who did not receive it, doesn't change the content of the gospel which he had first preached to them.

amen

thanks for your quality posts

romans 5:7-9 says Christ died for us while we were yet sinners as per what you tried to explain a few times

1 john 2:2 is an excellent quote as well

God Bless you

 

[Hammster]

Scripture isn't a smokescreen, it's quite clear. Your repeating question, however, is a deflection and doesn't invalidate scripture.

Questions of the type "show me where specific person x does specific thing y to specific group z" have little value in Bible study.

It's like someone asking "show me where Jesus told someone homosexuality was a sin" to deflect from scripture showing homosexuality is a sin. Or like the person asking, "where specifically does the Bible say "Trinity" or "show me where Jesus Himself directly claims to be God" to deflect from verses proving that Jesus is God.

Any study should focus on what the Bible says, not ignore what scripture says unless it fits a specific personal wishlist. If The verse says Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, not just believers, then it is God-breathed and the 'audience' doesn't change the teaching that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just the sins of believers.

Paul speaking of his past preaching of the gospel that Jesus died for our sins to the Corinthians before they had received the gospel is clearly a case of unbelievers in the past having been told that Christ died for their sins. That Paul is speaking to those Corinthians who did receive that gospel, and not at the moment to those who did not receive it, doesn't change the content of the gospel which he had first preached to them.

I never said scripture was a smoke screen. What you are doing is, though. Or carpet bombing. You throw out 10 verses, ignore context, give a lengthy explanation, and say "see?". It makes it nearly impossible to respond without having a 10000 word post.

For instance, 1 John 2:2 in no way addresses the issue. You assume because the word world is used, that it does. Then you find other verses that say the same sort of thing, ignoring context, and claim it supports your position. Then out of nowhere, without support, you give an explanation of the atonement which can't be supported with scripture.

So how is someone supposed to reasonably reply to any of that, especially when you've not even addressed the original question?

 

[Hammster]

amen

thanks for your quality posts

romans 5:7-9 says Christ died for us while we were yet sinners as per what you tried to explain a few times

1 john 2:2 is an excellent quote as well

God Bless you

And they are out of context.

 

[Truthfrees]

And they are out of context.

actually my friend the truth is that your interpretation disagrees with my interpretation

nothing more nothing less

that is what theology is all about - arguing over interpretation of scripture

there are so many branches of calvinism and they disagree with each others' interpretation of scripture

every christian group/denomination congregates over their common interpretation of scripture

it is more realistic to simply discuss various interpretations of scripture than to accuse each other of error

 

[Hammster]

actually my friend the truth is that your interpretation disagrees with my interpretation

nothing more nothing less

that is what theology is all about - arguing over interpretation of scripture

there are so many branches of calvinism and they disagree with each others' interpretation of scripture

every christian group/denomination congregates over their common interpretation of scripture

it is more realistic to simply discuss various interpretations of scripture than to accuse each other of error

I don't know what your interpretation is. Just posting verse references don't help. But I can assume that you think that 1 John 2:2 means that Christ is the propitiation for every person who ever lived.

Propitiation means something. It means that God's wrath is saitified. No more anger. If that's the case, then why is there hell?

However, if we correctly conclude that John meant not just Jews, but people from throughout the world, then we can avoid the appearance of universalism.

And the Us in Romans is exactly that. Paul is assessing himself and the Roman audience he's writing to.

Context.

 

[Truthfrees]

You throw out 10 verses, ignore context, give a lengthy explanation, and say "see?". It makes it nearly impossible to respond without having a 10000 word post.

her explanations are very thorough and easy to understand

she very well explains the context

the real issue is disagreeing over interpretation of scripture

it is really a paradigm context

you interpret scripture via your paradigm - which disagrees with the paradigm of other calvinists and other christians

this is the only context issue involved my dear friend

 

[Hammster]

her explanations are very thorough and easy to understand

she very well explains the context

the real issue is disagreeing over interpretation of scripture

it is really a paradigm context

you interpret scripture via your paradigm - which disagrees with the paradigm of other calvinists and other christians

this is the only context issue involved my dear friend

It's a contradiction to appease God's wrath (which means something) and have it remain. Those are mutually exclusive. So while easy to understand, they cannot both be true.

 

[Truthfrees]

I don't know what your interpretation is. Just posting verse references don't help. But I can assume that you think that 1 John 2:2 means that Christ is the propitiation for every person who ever lived.

Propitiation means something. It means that God's wrath is saitified. No more anger. If that's the case, then why is there hell?

However, if we correctly conclude that John meant not just Jews, but people from throughout the world, then we can avoid the appearance of universalism.

And the Us in Romans is exactly that. Paul is assessing himself and the Roman audience he's writing to.

Context.

i agreed with the person you were debating

when i read her post in it's entirety - line upon line - her logic makes scriptural sense to me

i try to understand your logic/reasoning/paradigm and so far i can't grasp it

if you can point me to someone other than calvin who can more clearly explain your reasoning i would be glad to read what they have to say

but so far i have found i can't make sense of calvin's writing or agree with your reasoning in your posts

 

[Truthfrees]

It's a contradiction to appease God's wrath (which means something) and have it remain. Those are mutually exclusive. So while easy to understand, they cannot both be true.

Jesus paid for all sins - it's a free gift to whosoever will

whosoever won't has left the free gift unclaimed/rejected

Jesus did the work in full for everyone - and it's waiting for the person to receive the gift via receiving Jesus

this is how they co-exist/are equally true

 

[Hammster]

i agreed with the personage you were debating

when i read her post in it's entirety - line upon line - her logic makes scriptural sense to me

i try to understand your logic/reasoning/paradigm and so far i can't grasp it

if you can point me to someone other than calvin who can more clearly explain your reasoning i would be glad to read what they have to say

but so far i have found i can't make sense of calvin's writing or your reasoning in your posts

See the straw man Thread. There are other references.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus paid for all sins - it's a free gift to whosoever will

whosoever won't has left the free gift unclaimed/rejected

Jesus did the work in full for everyone - and it's waiting for the person to receive it

this is how they co-exist/are equally true

Sorry, but it doesn't apply. Was Christ the propitiation? Did His death satisfy God's wrath? If so, what does it mean that His wrath was satisfied?

 

[Truthfrees]

See the straw man Thread. There are other references.

i tried the other thread and ended up frustrated

couldn't find what i needed

couldn't get enough help from anyone over there

i am still open to learning but had to find tim calles on my own - which is ot over there

and even then no one told me whether tim was an acceptable source or not

i find the people here want to help clarify the issues

 

[Hammster]

i tried the other thread and ended up frustrated

couldn't find what i needed

couldn't get enough help from anyone over there

i am still open to learning but had to find tim calles on my own - which is ot over there

and even then no one told me whether tim was an acceptable source or not

i find the people here want to help clarify the issues

Tim is a good teacher.

 

[Truthfrees]

Sorry, but it doesn't apply. Was Christ the propitiation? Did His death satisfy God's wrath? If so, what does it mean that His wrath was satisfied?

Jesus said if you do not believe in Me you will die in your sins.

so all sin was dealt with - if one accepts Jesus

iow someone who rejects Jesus naturally rejects what HE did them - return to sender unopened

anyone who accepts Jesus naturally accepts what He did for them - signed for and accepted

 

[Hammster]

Jesus said if you do not believe in Me you will die in your sins.

so all sin was dealt with - if one accepts Jesus

iow someone who rejects Jesus naturally rejects what HE did them - return to sender unopened

anyone who accepts Jesus naturally accepts what He did for them - signed for and accepted

Let me try again, since you avoided my questions completely.

Was Christ the propitiation? Did His death satisfy God's wrath? If so, what does it mean that His wrath was satisfied?

 

[Truthfrees]

Let me try again, since you avoided my questions completely.

Was Christ the propitiation? Did His death satisfy God's wrath? If so, what does it mean that His wrath was satisfied?

give me scripture so i can comment on it

i read scripture rather than theology so am unfamiliar with your terminology

i answered your question directly

if i missed your point it was unintentional

can you drop the assumptions about me and others

i avoided nothing

it makes for an unpleasant conversation to hear a continuous string of accusations

 

[Hammster]

give me scripture so i can comment on it

i read scripture rather than theology so am unfamiliar with your terminology

i answered your question directly

if i missed your point it was unintentional

can you drop the assumptions about me and others

i avoided nothing

it makes for an unpleasant conversation to hear a continuous string of accusations

I don't know what your interpretation is. Just posting verse references don't help. But I can assume that you think that 1 John 2:2 means that Christ is the propitiation for every person who ever lived.

Propitiation means something. It means that God's wrath is saitified. No more anger. If that's the case, then why is there hell?

However, if we correctly conclude that John meant not just Jews, but people from throughout the world, then we can avoid the appearance of universalism.

Was Christ the propitiation? Did His death satisfy God's wrath? If so, what does it mean that His wrath was satisfied?

 

[Truthfrees]

Was Christ the propitiation? Did His death satisfy God's wrath? If so, what does it mean that His wrath was satisfied?

1 John 2:2 says Jesus was the propitiation for the whole world - so Jesus paid for the sin of the whole world - it's paid for and waiting to be received - because it is a free gift - John 3:16, John 8:24

which scripture are you using for wrath