Quoting Calvin

[Jennifer Rothnie]

The problem is when folks make it sound like Paul recounting giving them the message when he was evangelizing. It changes the meaning.

Paul summarizes the gospel he had received and passed onto them in I Cor 15:1-4.

"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."

He is clearly speaking to them of the past, and of the gospel as he first presented it to them before they received it and became believers. He doubles down on this later in the chapter as well in I Cor 15:11: "Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed."

Only after reiterating the gospel which he had preached to them, and which they continue to preach, does he move on in the chapter to the resurrection and other topics.

"Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures" (such as Isaiah 53) is clearly in the part of the gospel he had once preached to them (before they believed) and part of the gospel that is continuously preached.

This is the same principle found in I John 2:2 "He is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

[Note that an atoning sacrifice does not automatically provide atonement unless one applies the blood. Just as the Israelites had to put the blood on the doorposts to have the Angel of Death pass over, so we must 'apply the blood' through faith for God's wrath to be appeased by the atoning sacrifice. Jesus is the sacrifice for the whole world (propitiation), but God only counts the sacrifice towards those who apply the blood in faith.]

 

[amariselle]

None of those verses actually mandate the Calvinist theory of eternal security.

Eph 1:13-14

The seal of the Holy Spirit is God's guarantee to believers - it doesn't force believers to remain in the covenant contract, but rather shows God's ownership, His guarantee of promises to those remaining in the contract, and protection from outside tampering.
What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit as earnest payment (like a down payment or engagement ring) is also not a guarantee that someone who begins in faith will end in faith. Just like a women can reject an engagement she agreed to (but have to return the ring), the earnest payment is God's guarantee that the rest of the payment will be given in future. However, the caveat in the passage is that this future payment is only due to 'God's possession.' If someone exits the contract by rejecting faith, he can't claim the redemption of the rest of the promises in future. It's somewhat similar to how Esau could not reclaim his birthright once he had sold it, or how a woman can't claim the future benefits of marriage if she rejects the engagement she once accepted. The earnest payment is a sign of God's faithfulness to us - not a mandate of our faithfulness to Him.
Can a Christian 'give back' salvation?


24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. - Hebrews 7:24-25

This verse, in context, is about how Christ is able to completely save those who come to Him, unlike an animal sacrifice that could never fully atone for sins or the mortal High priests who had to annually come before God.

"For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever." Heb 7:28

Also, note that this forever salvation is not for those who drew near at one point in the past, but those who draw near as an ongoing action in the present. This fits well with the verb tenses of John 3:16 as well. Those who believe (continuously) are the ones who hold (continuously) salvation. Salvation begins from the first moment of faith, we continue to hold it as we continue in faith, and salvation is finally fulfilled with all the promises of God at the future judgment for those who end in faith. Jesus has no lack of ability to save or raise believers, and He is the perfect High priest.

It is only God's will that Christ raises, in future, those who look (Continuously) and believe (Continuously) in Christ. Jn 6:38-40.

What does it mean that Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith?

I John 1:1-2 is about Jesus as the intercessor for believers who sin, and about how He is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for everyone's sins. Those who reject faith are not just sinning - they are returning to slavery to sin and rejecting Christ as their intercessor. (II Pet 2:20-22, Heb 10:26, etc.)
What does the Hebrews 10:26 mean concerning 'willful sin?'

2 Timothy 2:13 also does not teach eternal security. Indeed II Tim 2:12 shows quite the opposite.

"Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself." II Tim 2:11-13

Verse twelve says that "if we endure, we will also reign", but "if we deny Him He will deny us."

If someone begins in faith, but later repudiates that faith, they will be denied as if Christ 'never knew them' before the Father. It is only those who endure in faith who will reign with Him.

In verse 13, the verse speaks of God's faithfulness. What faithfulness? To His own self and character. God 'can not deny Himself' - even if an unbeliever or former believer has unbelief, that doesn't change God's promises nor who He is. As such, God *cannot* break His own promises and raise an unbeliever, for that would be denying His own promises and character.


"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ..." - Philippians 1:6

Paul is praising the Philippians for their active participation in the gospel, and expressing his own personal confidence that God will continue working in them. The 'good work' in us is the work of the Spirit in renewing our mind and helping us put to death the deeds of the flesh as we walk in Christ, and the equipping of the believer by the Spirit for every good work (II Tim 3:17.)

We get more explanation from Phil 2:13 "Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, or it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

And in Col 1:9-14: "For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives, so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified youf to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

II Tim 2:20-21, II PEt 1:3-11, II Cor 4:7-18, and many other passages speak to this work of God inside us as well.

Etc. These passages are about God equipping us for every good work, His Spirit working in believers until the day of redemption. None of them are about God forcing us to continue in faith, forcing us to submit to Him, etc. That God equips us as we walk with Him and gives us everything we need for life, godliness, growth, endurance, etc. doesn't logically mandate that we continue to walk with Him. It does mean that those who reject faith have no excuse - they can't claim God did not give them what they needed or do enough for them.

None of those passages mandate eternal security, nor do they contradict the many explicit scripture passages that speak of individuals falling away/rejecting faith, the possibility that believers can fail to endure in faith, the warnings that we need to hold fast in faith, etc.

What is the underlying Greek word used for translating "falling away" in the NKJV & "departure" in the WEB?
What is 'perseverance of the saints' and is it biblical?
Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?

Thank you for your response. I am not a Calvinist actually (as it seems you may have misunderstood and think I am). However, I do not believe that once one has been born again one can somehow be unborn, or that one can "outsin" the blood of Christ. He is faithful to His promises and will never leave us or forsake us.

 

[Hammster]

Paul summarizes the gospel he had received and passed onto them in I Cor 15:1-4.

"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."

He is clearly speaking to them of the past, and of the gospel as he first presented it to them before they received it and became believers. He doubles down on this later in the chapter as well in I Cor 15:11: "Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed."

Only after reiterating the gospel which he had preached to them, and which they continue to preach, does he move on in the chapter to the resurrection and other topics.

"Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures" (such as Isaiah 53) is clearly in the part of the gospel he had once preached to them (before they believed) and part of the gospel that is continuously preached.

This is the same principle found in I John 2:2 "He is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

[Note that an atoning sacrifice does not automatically provide atonement unless one applies the blood. Just as the Israelites had to put the blood on the doorposts to have the Angel of Death pass over, so we must 'apply the blood' through faith for God's wrath to be appeased by the atoning sacrifice. Jesus is the sacrifice for the whole world (propitiation), but God only counts the sacrifice towards those who apply the blood in faith.]

I'll ask again.

If I stood in front of a congregation of believers and said that Christ died for our sins, would that be accurate?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

This sort of post bemuses me. You operate under the assumption that there is a "Calvinist theory of eternal security". The doctrine of the eternal security of the believer may seem to be closely related to Calvinism, but it is not in reality. Calvinism clearly teaches the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. This means that the elect will persevere in their faith to the end. This is a clear indication of their election. This doctrine does not teach that any person who claims to be a Christian, but does not persevere in the faith, is actually saved.

To my knowledge, Calvinists generally believe that while one can 'profess' faith and later leave the appearance of faith or empty declaration of faith, anyone who claims but later rejects faith 'never really had it to begin with.' That is, anyone who starts in genuine faith is guaranteed to continue due to the preservation of the doctrine of the saints, hence eternal security. Yet that doesn't fit with the many passages showing that people actually escaped the world through true, relational knowledge of Christ (which only Christians can have) then returned (II Pet 1:20-22); people who were made partakers of the Holy Spirit (only Christians become active sharers with the Spirit and experience change due to this) yet then fell away (Heb 6:4-6); begin in faith but in a time of testing fall away (Lk 8:13), etc.

Should believers be concerned if they are elected?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Thank you for your response. I am not a Calvinist actually (as it seems you may have misunderstood and think I am). However, I do not believe that once one has been born again one can somehow be unborn, or that one can "outsin" the blood of Christ. He is faithful to His promises and will never leave us or forsake us.

I hear the 'you can't be unborn' phrase thrown around a lot - but that's not something anyone actually claims. It's a great example of a strawman argument. Rejecting faith is not becoming unborn - it is spiritual death. You can be physically born, but later physically die. You can be spiritually born, but later spiritually die. The term Scripture uses is "twice dead" for those who once escaped death under sin only to return to it, along with other terms like 'uprooted' (since they have removed themselves from the vine) or without fruit. (Jude 1:12, Jn 15:2-7)

Likewise, rejecting faith is not a matter of 'outsinning' Christ - it's literally returning to a state of willful sin and slavery to the world. A very explicit example is given in II Pet 2:20-22 where individuals are mentioned who once had escaped the corruption of the world through the exact knowledge (Epignosis) of Christ. True knowledge is only something Christians can have, for it is experiential/relational. It is contrasted in scripture with knowledge (gnosis) that is merely intellectual and cannot save. These men are now 'worse off' than if they had remained in their first state of unbelief. They didn't sin too much so as to surpass Christ's ability to intercede, nor did they become unborn. After having true, experiential knowledge (not mere head knowledge) of the way of righteousness, they then returned to their former place.

What does the Hebrews 10:26 mean concerning 'willful sin?'

 

[amariselle]

I hear the 'you can't be unborn' phrase thrown around a lot - but that's not something anyone actually claims. It's a great example of a strawman argument. Rejecting faith is not becoming unborn - it is spiritual death. You can be physically born, but later physically die. You can be spiritually born, but later spiritually die. The term Scripture uses is "twice dead" for those who once escaped death under sin only to return to it, along with other terms like 'uprooted' (since they have removed themselves from the vine) or without fruit. (Jude 1:12, Jn 15:2-7)

Likewise, rejecting faith is not a matter of 'outsinning' Christ - it's literally returning to a state of willful sin and slavery to the world. A very explicit example is given in II Pet 2:20-22 where individuals are mentioned who once had escaped the corruption of the world through the exact knowledge (Epignosis) of Christ. True knowledge is only something Christians can have, for it is experiential/relational. It is contrasted in scripture with knowledge (gnosis) that is merely intellectual and cannot save. These men are now 'worse off' than if they had remained in their first state of unbelief. They didn't sin too much so as to surpass Christ's ability to intercede, nor did they become unborn. After having true, experiential knowledge (not mere head knowledge) of the way of righteousness, they then returned to their former place.

What does the Hebrews 10:26 mean concerning 'willful sin?'

Sure, but nobody who actually trusts God and does not fall into "unbelief" is going to be lost, even when they sin.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

I'll ask again.

If I stood in front of a congregation of believers and said that Christ died for our sins, would that be accurate?

It would be accurate for Paul to day Christ died for our sins whether he was addressing a crowd of unbelievers, a crowd of believers, or a mixed crowd.

In I Cor 15:1-4 Paul is recounting how he once preached the gospel to them, before they were believers, that Christ died for our sins.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Sure, but nobody who actually trusts God and does not fall into "unbelief" is going to be lost, even when they sin.

Agreed! No believer can lose salvation due to any specific sin or sinning too much, etc.

However, that's not the Calvinist TULIP teaching which holds that returning to unbelief is an impossibility.

 

[Hammster]

It would be accurate for Paul to day Christ died for our sins whether he was addressing a crowd of unbelievers, a crowd of believers, or a mixed crowd.

In I Cor 15:1-4 Paul is recounting how he once preached the gospel to them, before they were believers, that Christ died for our sins.

That's not what he says though.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

That's not what he says though.

Please refer back to post #262 where I went through the passage.

Again, briefly:

" I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. And last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."

Paul is clearly 'reminding' them of the gospel he first preached to them - the gospel he had received and passed onto them. This gospel was that 'Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.' In the past they had received that gospel and currently now stand firm in it. And in verse 11 he mentions that the other apostles proclaim this as well.

There is no reason to assume from this passage that his recounting of the gospel is re-worded, or that the apostles preach a different gospel to unbelievers than the one they remind believers of.

 

[Hammster]

Please refer back to post #262 where I went through the passage.

Again, briefly:

" I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. And last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."

Paul is clearly 'reminding' them of the gospel he first preached to them - the gospel he had received and passed onto them. This gospel was that 'Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.' In the past they had received that gospel and currently now stand firm in it. And in verse 11 he mentions that the other apostles proclaim this as well.

There is no reason to assume from this passage that his recounting of the gospel is re-worded, or that the apostles preach a different gospel to unbelievers than the one they remind believers of.

You can repeat it all you want. But he's not saying what you claim. He's saying what he's saying. That's why I asked the question that I did.

If I said to a group of believers that I was blessed to lead to Christ, and I said to them, as encouragement, that I wanted to remind them that Christ died for our sins, you cannot conclude that when I witnessed to them that I told them that Christ died for their sins. And there's not a single instance in scripture where that phrase, or anything similar, was used.

 

[bbbbbbb]

To my knowledge, Calvinists generally believe that while one can 'profess' faith and later leave the appearance of faith or empty declaration of faith, anyone who claims but later rejects faith 'never really had it to begin with.' That is, anyone who starts in genuine faith is guaranteed to continue due to the preservation of the doctrine of the saints, hence eternal security. Yet that doesn't fit with the many passages showing that people actually escaped the world through true, relational knowledge of Christ (which only Christians can have) then returned (II Pet 1:20-22); people who were made partakers of the Holy Spirit (only Christians become active sharers with the Spirit and experience change due to this) yet then fell away (Heb 6:4-6); begin in faith but in a time of testing fall away (Lk 8:13), etc.

Should believers be concerned if they are elected?

In Calvinism there is no absolute human certainty that one is elected or reprobate. God has made that decision and the results of His decision will be verified in the life of the individual. Those who are among the elect will be saved.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

You can repeat it all you want. But he's not saying what you claim. He's saying what he's saying. That's why I asked the question that I did.

If I said to a group of believers that I was blessed to lead to Christ, and I said to them, as encouragement, that I wanted to remind them that Christ died for our sins, you cannot conclude that when I witnessed to them that I told them that Christ died for their sins. And there's not a single instance in scripture where that phrase, or anything similar, was used.

He's not just reminding them as current encouragement that Christ died for their sins. He is specifically reminding them "of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand." He is reminding them of the by which they are saved if they hold firmly to the word he preached to them. He is reminding them of what he himself had received, as the 'least of the apostles,' and then passed onto them in the past: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve....and last of all he appeared to me also"

It is exceedingly clear that this is a recounting of the gospel he preached to them in the past. I Cor 15:1-11. Treating it, instead, as an encouraging phrase only to believers ignores the entire context and what Paul himself describes the statement as part of.

I Jn 2:2 also makes it clear that Jesus as propitiation (death as atoning sacrifice) was not just for the sins of believers, but the sins of the whole world. "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

The CF statement of faith follows along with this basic gospel presentation:

...Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1 Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)

Note that the Christian Forums SOF doesn't restrict Jesus to dying only for believers:

"...This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all." I Tim 2:4-5

Ransom in I Tim 4-5 is antílytron, from antí, "corresponding to, instead of/exchange" and lýtron, "ransom-price."

What specific purchase price Jesus pay to secure the freedom of all in I Tim 4-5?

"God presented Him as an atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus." Rom 3:25-26

"Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." II Cor 5:21

[Note that Paul is decribing the ministry of reconciliation which all believers have: to implore unbelievers to be reconciled to God and preach that God made innocent Christ to be sin on our behalf.]

We see from both these passages that God presents Jesus as the atoning sacrifice to all men, but only through faith in His blood can we receive the imputed righteousness of Christ.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

In Calvinism there is no absolute human certainty that one is elected or reprobate. God has made that decision and the results of His decision will be verified in the life of the individual. Those who are among the elect will be saved.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

That's an interesting explanation of perseverance of the saints. It sounds a bit more like classic Calvinism (aka Spurgeon) than TULIP. Most Calvinists I have read don't just think that the elect cannot be lost, so as to make someone who began in faith but didn't end in faith not among the elect, but that anyone who begins in faith is elect and hence cannot later reject it. S. Michael Houdmann has a write-up of a fairly typical Calvinist presentation on that here: What is 'perseverance of the saints' and is it biblical?. As such, the general argument against passages like Heb 4:4-6 or that otherwise mention apostasy is not that "they weren't elect (which I might agree with)" but rather that those people didn't really have faith or just had mere head knowledge (although some of those passages specifically mention that they had true/relational knowledge, or shared in the spirit, or had faith but then made shipwreck of it or rejected it, etc); or that the passages are merely hypothetical, etc.

Scripture does tell us to make 'our calling and election sure' by continuing to walk in Christ. It isn't an uncertainty based on some unknown criteria of God's selection - but rather, God in His sovereignty chose to make us His children through faith - not works of man or unknowable factors.
How do Christians make their "calling and election" certain?
How can I know if I am one of the elect?
How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's an interesting explanation of perseverance of the saints. It sounds a bit more like classic Calvinism (aka Spurgeon) than TULIP. Most Calvinists I have read don't just think that the elect cannot be lost, so as to make someone who began in faith but didn't end in faith not among the elect, but that anyone who begins in faith is elect and hence cannot later reject it. S. Michael Houdmann has a write-up of a fairly typical Calvinist presentation on that here: What is 'perseverance of the saints' and is it biblical?. As such, the general argument against passages like Heb 4:4-6 or that otherwise mention apostasy is not that "they weren't elect (which I might agree with)" but rather that those people didn't really have faith or just had mere head knowledge (although some of those passages specifically mention that they had true/relational knowledge, or shared in the spirit, or had faith but then made shipwreck of it or rejected it, etc); or that the passages are merely hypothetical, etc.

Scripture does tell us to make 'our calling and election sure' by continuing to walk in Christ. It isn't an uncertainty based on some unknown criteria of God's selection - but rather, God in His sovereignty chose to make us His children through faith - not works of man or unknowable factors.
How do Christians make their "calling and election" certain?
How can I know if I am one of the elect?
How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?

Thank you. I hope that I am representing classic Calvinism accurately. I agree that we ought to make our calling and election sure.

 

[Hammster]

He's not just reminding them as current encouragement that Christ died for their sins. He is specifically reminding them "of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand." He is reminding them of the by which they are saved if they hold firmly to the word he preached to them. He is reminding them of what he himself had received, as the 'least of the apostles,' and then passed onto them in the past: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve....and last of all he appeared to me also"

It is exceedingly clear that this is a recounting of the gospel he preached to them in the past. I Cor 15:1-11. Treating it, instead, as an encouraging phrase only to believers ignores the entire context and what Paul himself describes the statement as part of.

I Jn 2:2 also makes it clear that Jesus as propitiation (death as atoning sacrifice) was not just for the sins of believers, but the sins of the whole world. "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

The CF statement of faith follows along with this basic gospel presentation:

...Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1 Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)

Note that the Christian Forums SOF doesn't restrict Jesus to dying only for believers:

"...This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all." I Tim 2:4-5

Ransom in I Tim 4-5 is antílytron, from antí, "corresponding to, instead of/exchange" and lýtron, "ransom-price."

What specific purchase price Jesus pay to secure the freedom of all in I Tim 4-5?

"God presented Him as an atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus." Rom 3:25-26

"Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." II Cor 5:21

[Note that Paul is decribing the ministry of reconciliation which all believers have: to implore unbelievers to be reconciled to God and preach that God made innocent Christ to be sin on our behalf.]

We see from both these passages that God presents Jesus as the atoning sacrifice to all men, but only through faith in His blood can we receive the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Find one place where any gospel offer states He died for everyone's sins. Not in 1 Corinthians or in Acts will you find it.

I'll wait.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Find one place where any gospel offer states He died for everyone's sins. Not in 1 Corinthians or in Acts will you find it.

I'll wait.

It's already been mentioned several times, but I John 2:2 clearly states "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Propitiation is often translated 'atoning sacrifice' as propitiation is not a common word. Jesus died as an offering to appease God's wrath against the sins of man. Heb 9:26, Rom 3:25, etc.

Since the offering can only be received through faith in Christ's blood (Rom 3:25,) then the wrath of God remains on those who disbelieve (Jn 3:36.) The presentation of Christ as atoning sacrifice (Rom 3:25) was for public view, not merely for future believers (Strong's Greek: 4388. προτίθεμαι (protithémi) -- to set before, i.e. propose.)

John the Baptist makes this point as well in John 1:29: The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." Heb 2:9


And, as mentioned many, many times, Paul is reminding the Corinthians of the past gospel offer he preached that the Corinthians received, and the gospel that the Apostles continue to preach. I Cor 15:1-11 That gospel preached by the Apostles to unbelievers, and by Paul to the Corinthians before they were believers, includes the message 'Christ died for our sins." "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures" I Cor 15:3-4

In II Cor 5:14-21, Paul goes into depth on how believers are to persuade those still in unbelief:

"If we are “out of our mind,” as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

[Note that Paul does not restrict those who Jesus died for merely to those who would one day live in Him, but He does point out that the purpose of Jesus dying for all was that those who live (believers) should not live for themselves but for Christ.]

"So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Here Paul clearly lays out the 'ministry of reconciliation' which believers have to unbelievers. We are to implore unbelievers to be reconciled to God, and of how God was reconciling the world to Him through Christ: that God made Jesus, who had no sin, to be sin on everyone's behalf, so that in Him (if we receive the atoning sacrifice by faith) we might become the righteousness of God.

Also:

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
" I Tim 2:5

"For to this we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." I Tim 4:10 (Not 'only to those who believe' but 'of all men, especially of those who believe.')

Note that Jesus 'bought' (with His blood) even the false teachers in II Pet 1:1-2: "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time." I Tim 2:5-6

 

[Hammster]

It's already been mentioned several times, but I John 2:2 clearly states "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Propitiation is often translated 'atoning sacrifice' as propitiation is not a common word. Jesus died as an offering to appease God's wrath against the sins of man. Heb 9:26, Rom 3:25, etc.

Since the offering can only be received through faith in Christ's blood (Rom 3:25,) then the wrath of God remains on those who disbelieve (Jn 3:36.) The presentation of Christ as atoning sacrifice (Rom 3:25) was for public view, not merely for future believers (Strong's Greek: 4388. προτίθεμαι (protithémi) -- to set before, i.e. propose.)

John the Baptist makes this point as well in John 1:29: The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." Heb 2:9


And, as mentioned many, many times, Paul is reminding the Corinthians of the past gospel offer he preached that the Corinthians received, and the gospel that the Apostles continue to preach. I Cor 15:1-11 That gospel preached by the Apostles to unbelievers, and by Paul to the Corinthians before they were believers, includes the message 'Christ died for our sins." "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures" I Cor 15:3-4

In II Cor 5:14-21, Paul goes into depth on how believers are to persuade those still in unbelief:

"If we are “out of our mind,” as some say, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

[Note that Paul does not restrict those who Jesus died for merely to those who would one day live in Him, but He does point out that the purpose of Jesus dying for all was that those who live (believers) should not live for themselves but for Christ.]

"So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Here Paul clearly lays out the 'ministry of reconciliation' which believers have to unbelievers. We are to implore unbelievers to be reconciled to God, and of how God was reconciling the world to Him through Christ: that God made Jesus, who had no sin, to be sin on everyone's behalf, so that in Him (if we receive the atoning sacrifice by faith) we might become the righteousness of God.

Also:

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
" I Tim 2:5

"For to this we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." I Tim 4:10 (Not 'only to those who believe' but 'of all men, especially of those who believe.')

Note that Jesus 'bought' (with His blood) even the false teachers in II Pet 1:1-2: "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time." I Tim 2:5-6

It was a simple request. All of this smokescreen doesn't change the fact that nowhere is there any mention to unbelievers that Christ died for them.

 

[amariselle]

Agreed! No believer can lose salvation due to any specific sin or sinning too much, etc.

However, that's not the Calvinist TULIP teaching which holds that returning to unbelief is an impossibility.

As I said, I'm not Calvinist (or Arminian).

 

[amariselle]

It was a simple request. All of this smokescreen doesn't change the fact that nowhere is there any mention to unbelievers that Christ died for them.

Well, if Christ didn't die for "unbelievers" I guess He didn't die for anyone then.