Hammster

Psalm 144:1
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amen

does reform theology get into stating the particulars of what happens to someone who is regenerated?

if i asked a reformed what is regeneration? what would the official statement be?
Scripture states that we are either alive, or dead. And as far as I know, being alive equates to being saved. So being regenerated means you are alive.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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I think one of the clearest examples is this:

“And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:1-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

We were dead. God made us alive by grace.

Saved by grace, through faith, as the passage clearly explains. (Eph 2:8) The passage does not say 'alive together with Christ prior to faith' or 'alive together with Christ so you can have faith.'

Where does Christ state that there is a way outside of faith to be alive together with him?

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Rom 7:6

We can only serve in the new way of the spirit if we have died to what once bound us, which only happens through faith, when we die to self and are raised unto Christ.

"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." Rom 6:4
 
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Hammster

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Saved by grace, through faith, as the passage clearly explains. (Eph 2:8) The passage does not say 'alive together with Christ prior to faith' or 'alive together with Christ so you can have faith.'

Where does Christ state that there is a way outside of faith to be alive together with him?

"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Rom 7:6

We can only serve in the new way of the spirit if we have died to what once bound us, which only happens through faith, when we die to self and are raised unto Christ.

"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." Rom 6:4
You seem to be mixing regeneration and justification together as interchangeable ideas.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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You seem to be mixing regeneration and justification together as interchangeable ideas.

Justification and regeneration are not interchangeable - I have claimed no such thing. However, they both follow faith. We are declared just by faith (due to the imputed righteousness of Christ), Gal 2:16, and are made new creations when we die to self and live to Christ, again through faith. The Spirit given to believers then renews our hearts, allowing us to walk in the Spirit and newness of life.

You have stated that you believe regeneration means being made 'alive' and is synonymous with 'saved.' By your stated view that regeneration precedes faith, that would make us alive prior to faith, having already died to self, and together with Christ prior to having faith in Him.
 
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Hammster

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Justification and regeneration are not interchangeable - I have claimed no such thing. However, they both follow faith. We are declared just by faith (due to the imputed righteousness of Christ), Gal 2:16, and are made new creations when we die to self and live to Christ, again through faith. The Spirit given to believers then renews our hearts, allowing us to walk in the Spirit and newness of life.

You have stated that you believe regeneration means being made 'alive' and is synonymous with 'saved.' By your stated view that regeneration precedes faith, that would make us alive prior to faith, having already died to self, and together with Christ prior to having faith in Him.
No, it wouldn't. It would just make us born again. That's not the same thing as justification or sanctification. It just means that we are now free to believe since we are no longer slaves to sin.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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No, it wouldn't. It would just make us born again. That's not the same thing as justification or sanctification. It just means that we are now free to believe since we are no longer slaves to sin.

You have stated regeneration, being made alive, being saved, and being free from sin are synonymous. You have stated that regeneration must precede faith.

Premises:
A=B=C=D
A precedes F
Conclusion: B, C, and D precede F

According to your presented statements, then salvation precedes faith.

If you misrepresented your premises, feel free to clarify.


We aren't born again prior to faith so that we can have faith. No scripture states such a thing. We do need to be born again to enter the kingdom of God, which can only happen if we enter the kingdom via Christ (the only way) and receive the spirit so as to become a new creation. We also cannot enter the kingdom of God without new spiritual bodies to be given us at the Ressurection, where we will literally be born of Spirit and not just in our hearts submitted to Christ.

"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God." I Pet 1:23 (Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.)

"But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe...so in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith." Gal 3:20-26

We don't become the born again children of God -prior- to faith, nor do we receive part of the promises (life, regeneration, etc.) prior to faith.
 
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Hammster

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You have stated regeneration, being made alive, being saved, and being free from sin are synonymous. You have stated that regeneration must precede faith.

Premises:
A=B=C=D
A precedes F
Conclusion: B, C, and D precede F

According to your presented statements, then salvation precedes faith.

If you misrepresented your premises, feel free to clarify.


We aren't born again prior to faith so that we can have faith. No scripture states such a thing. We do need to be born again to enter the kingdom of God, which can only happen if we enter the kingdom via Christ (the only way) and receive the spirit so as to become a new creation. We also cannot enter the kingdom of God without new spiritual bodies to be given us at the Ressurection, where we will literally be born of Spirit and not just in our hearts submitted to Christ.

"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God." I Pet 1:23 (Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.)

"But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe...so in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith." Gal 3:20-26

We don't become the born again children of God -prior- to faith, nor do we receive part of the promises (life, regeneration, etc.) prior to faith.
Wow. Never did I state or imply that salvation precedes faith. The only way you could come to that conclusion is to think that "saved" only has one meaning. But it can be used as regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

So to be made alive is regeneration. Those who are alive are considered saved in scripture. But to be alive, you must be made alive first.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Wow. Never did I state or imply that salvation precedes faith. The only way you could come to that conclusion is to think that "saved" only has one meaning. But it can be used as regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

So to be made alive is regeneration. Those who are alive are considered saved in scripture. But to be alive, you must be made alive first.

You said earlier, "Scripture states that we are either alive, or dead. And as far as I know, being alive equates to being saved. So being regenerated means you are alive."

Saved -does- only have one meaning; delivered, or more properly to rescue out danger and into safety.

It has many aspects (deliverance from sin, the imputed righteousness of Christ which justifies us in the sight of God, death to self, deliverance unto God, life by the Spirit, etc.) It is not synonymous with sub-aspects, for each only shows a part of the deliverance of God. Yet one cannot possess any of those sub-aspects without being saved, so possession of any one aspect would mean one possesses all the others as well.

That is -

Premises:
S {R, J, Sc, G...}
If no F, then no S
If F, then S
Conclusion:
No F, then no R, J, Sc, or G;
If F, then {S: R, J, Sc, G}

No part of our personal salvation precedes faith, for we are saved only through faith (Eph 2:8, Heb 10:39, II Tim 3:15, Mk 16:16, Rom 10:10, etc.) When we place our faith in Christ, we are made alive and hold eternal life.

"And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith...And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins...But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." I Cor 15:14-22

We are made alive through our faith in Christ.

"And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions..." Col 2:12-13

"We, therefore, were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life....For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin...." Rom 6:3-7

We are raised (made alive) with Christ through faith! That is how we have new life!

We aren't regenerated by the Spirit and made alive so we can then crucify our not-bound-to-sin flesh and then rise with faith and be made alive again - Scripture shows no such sequence, and it would be nonsensical. If we were already free from sin, why would we need to die again to have Christ to free us from slavery to sin?
 
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Hammster

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Saved -does- only have one meaning; delivered, or more properly to rescue out danger and into safety.
We are saved (delivered) when born again. We are saved(delivered) when justified. We are saved (delivered) when sacrificed. We are saved (delivered) when glorified.

I really hope we can move on so you can stop splitting hairs to win an argument.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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We are saved (delivered) when born again. We are saved(delivered) when justified. We are saved (delivered) when sacrificed. We are saved (delivered) when glorified.

If you believe that we are saved when born again, and that being born again is regeneration by the spirit (as you stated before) that must happen -prior- to faith, then you are saying that salvation precedes faith.

Yet scripture says we are saved through faith, not prior to faith. (Eph 2:8, John 3:16. etc.)
 
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Hammster

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If you believe that we are saved when born again, and that being born again is regeneration by the spirit (as you stated before) that must happen -prior- to faith, then you are saying that salvation precedes faith.

Yet scripture says we are saved through faith, not prior to faith. (Eph 2:8, John 3:16. etc.)
Do you believe that alive equal saved and dead equals unsaved?

I figured I should ask since you've ignored what I've been saying.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Do you believe that alive equal saved and dead equals unsaved?

I figured I should ask since you've ignored what I've been saying.

No, as someone can be alive and unsaved, or dead and saved.

"Alive in Christ" is a status of the saved [Eph 2:5-8] (not an exact synonym, though they certainly go hand-in-hand) - however, it is a status that only belongs to those 'in Christ.' We can only be in Christ, and hence alive in Christ, through faith.

"Dead in trespasses" is a status of the unsaved. We can only escape this by faith, as Jesus rescues us from our sin, we crucify our flesh, and we rise to Christ no longer under condemnation but justified by His blood.
 
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No, as someone can be alive and unsaved, or dead and saved.

"Alive in Christ" is a status of the saved [Eph 2:5-8] (not an exact synonym, though they certainly go hand-in-hand) - however, it is a status that only belongs to those 'in Christ.' We can only be in Christ, and hence alive in Christ, through faith.

"Dead in trespasses" is a status of the unsaved. We can only escape this by faith, as Jesus rescues us from our sin, we crucify our flesh, and we rise to Christ no longer under condemnation but justified by His blood.
Your explanations seem to contradict your initial statement. How can one be dead and saved?
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Your explanations seem to contradict your initial statement. How can one be dead and saved?

We don't lose our salvation when we die. I Cor 15:6, I Thess 4:13-15, Rev 20:4, Rev 6:11, etc.
Even in physical death, we have the hope of eternal life. So, there are many among the dead who are saved.

Likewise, not all those alive are saved. Only those who believe in Christ hold eternal life (John 3:16) - the rest stand condemned.
 
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We don't lose our salvation when we die. I Cor 15:6, I Thess 4:13-15, Rev 20:4, Rev 6:11, etc.
Even in physical death, we have the hope of eternal life. So, there are many among the dead who are saved.

Likewise, not all those alive are saved. Only those who believe in Christ hold eternal life (John 3:16) - the rest stand condemned.
Well, I wasn't talking about physical life or death. I think that was blatantly obvious. I thought you were serious. Now I'm convinced you are just playing games.
 
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AlexDTX

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Does your theology matter if you still love the world ? I mean what difference does our " theology" make if we be decieved ? For that matter what is the difference in a deceived Methodist , Baptist , Presbyterian/ Reformed , Buddist , Islamic , Judism or atheist ?
I think maybe I "get" election ...meaning "grace" shown through God's goodness ....mercy , not righteousness ..but I also think that mercy and grace has an accountability piece ..it should work humility and thankfulness ..not self righteousness . You know , in the ten virgins parable , they all were espoused to the bridegroom but 5 let their oil go out ..meaning they had it at some point. Does this speak to Calvinism at all ?
You are absolutely right. If we love the world more than Christ, it will not matter which doctrine you espouse. This is also true with rigid legalism and sloppy agape grace. What good is theology then? In my opinion the value of theology is the same value as road signs while traveling. Sound doctrine moves us closer to Christ and helps us get to our journey's end. Five of those virgins stop looking for the road signs and missed the exit.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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You are absolutely right. If we love the world more than Christ, it will not matter which doctrine you espouse. This is also true with rigid legalism and sloppy agape grace. What good is theology then? In my opinion the value of theology is the same value as road signs while traveling. Sound doctrine moves us closer to Christ and helps us get to our journey's end. Five of those virgins stop looking for the road signs and missed the exit.

The ten virgins all fell asleep at the same location (Matt 25:1-13), so I am not sure that metaphor really works or relates to doctrine. The difference between the virgins was in their level of preparedness. The five who didn't bring extra oil had to leave, and it was while they were gone that the bridegroom finally came. It wasn't that they didn't know the way - they did arrive later at the bridegroom's house, but he said, "I never knew you." They didn't plan ahead and be ready for the wait.

A better passage for doctrine might be II Pet 1:3-11. Doctrine and theology are part of the many things we 'add' to our faith as God has given it to us for life and godliness. Doctrine, knowledge we add to faith, helps us grow in relationship with Christ. If we have faith we already have a relationship with Christ - so we cannot get closer in the sense of 'finding Christ' - but we can grow closer in the aspect of relationship.

Doctrine and theology (other than the core doctrine of faith in Christ being the only way to the Father) are good to study; they do not replace the necessity of faith, but they are part of a thriving, growing relationship with Christ.
 
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NeedyFollower

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The ten virgins all fell asleep at the same location (Matt 25:1-13), so I am not sure that metaphor really works or relates to doctrine. The difference between the virgins was in their level of preparedness. The five who didn't bring extra oil had to leave, and it was while they were gone that the bridegroom finally came. It wasn't that they didn't know the way - they did arrive later at the bridegroom's house, but he said, "I never knew you." They didn't plan ahead and be ready for the wait.

A better passage for doctrine might be II Pet 1:3-11. Doctrine and theology are part of the many things we 'add' to our faith as God has given it to us for life and godliness. Doctrine, knowledge we add to faith, helps us grow in relationship with Christ. If we have faith we already have a relationship with Christ - so we cannot get closer in the sense of 'finding Christ' - but we can grow closer in the aspect of relationship.

Doctrine and theology (other than the core doctrine of faith in Christ being the only way to the Father) are good to study; they do not replace the necessity of faith, but they are part of a thriving, growing relationship with Christ.
Yes ...sound doctrine according to Godliness I believe it is referenced ...and what exactly is Godliness ? Well Christ Jesus our Lord showed us what Godliness is ..when He left everything He had with the Father for love's sake to be poured out for those who did not love Him ...and did it with meekness and humility and such patience ..not answering again ...and He the Savior ...How is that ??? Is that not glorious ? Is our God not worthy of all honor and majesty ? We want to defend ourselves , our opinions , our is the problem isn;t it ??? Theology I am a bit wary of as everyone became a theologian at some point ...arguing over things that were too much over their head and were not even necessary for salvation and people were burnt at the stake over it ..doctrine according to godliness I am ok with . ( I realize their were some real heresies that had to be debated but I am quite sure some folks were too busy loving God through Christ and feeding His sheep , both physically and spiritually , to get involved ...I am sure many " heretics" probably died as true martyrs and some folks died with wrong theology but maybe a passion for Christ ....that will be a fearful thing on judgement day ..to have slain one of Christ Lambs who erred in their understanding but were not in sin ...while defending orthodox theology .
 
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I have a friend who used to be an Arminiust. His two daughters rejected Christ and have fallen the way of the world. He was so dejected by this turn of affairs in his life he began reading the Institutes of Calvin and began to believe in the TULIP of Dort. Why do people embrace Calvinism? Because it removes personal responsibility from their shoulders.

You don't know why people embrace different teachings. But the ones who don't believe:

John 10
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

In truth we all have to make our choices and he believed as a father he was responsible for their being trained in the knowledge of God. And they were, but they chose the world and sin over God.

We can hardly judge another person's parenting skills unless we lived under their roof.

People reject Christ because they want to hold onto their own wills, not realizing that their wills are not their wills but Satan's. Coming to Christ and embracing the cross brings us to what God created us for and we find our wills in Him.
[statement erased because it was thoughtless and irresponsible to say] It is a demonic doctrine that abdicates personal responsibility for the growth of the Church.

Do you think Calvinists don't have missionaries?
 
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