Prevenient Grace

[Jwlickliter]

Is everyone saved?

Uh no not from what I understand? He did say on the cross forgive them for they no not what they do. Now I thought this was along the lines of what you were saying.

God will judge by what a person understands and I know that much. I don't think a human can judge us but they can judge us by mans law.

 

[Sola1517]

Reformed Theology sees prevenient grace as regeneration, as it concerns Soteriology.

Non Reformed Theology sees it more as freeing the will to be able to believe, but not necessarily regeneration. As I understand it, it's agreed that we are dead in sin, but God does something to us to enable us to believe, though the choice to believe is still ours to make.

I am more than willing to accept a better definition if someone would like to provide it. This is just my understanding as I've pieced it together through the years.

The question is, is this a biblical concept, and if so, what scripture would be used to support it?

The way I understand prevenient grace is that Jesus died, as a result all of humanity is invited. But, few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)

 

[Jwlickliter]

The way I understand prevenient grace is that Jesus died, as a result all of humanity is invited. But, few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)

What is chosen?

 

[Sola1517]

What is chosen?

The elect.

 

[Jwlickliter]

The elect.

So you mean the Shepard or church officals?

 

[Sola1517]

So you mean the Shepard or church officals?

I mean those sinners graciously chosen by God the Father to inherit eternal life.

 

[Jwlickliter]

I mean those sinners graciously chosen by God the Father to inherit eternal life.

Yes I agree.

 

[Rescued One]

Uh no not from what I understand? He did say on the cross forgive them for they no not what they do. Now I thought this was along the lines of what you were saying.

God will judge by what a person understands and I know that much. I don't think a human can judge us but they can judge us by mans law.

It wasn't that I'm confused, but I wanted to know what A Thinker believes because his post made me wonder:

Jesus' death provided atonement with God for us.

So, no, His death was not superfluous.

 

[Jwlickliter]

It wasn't that I'm confused, but I wanted to know what A Thinker believes because his post made me wonder:

I know but that's one of the toughest for me to answer. One mistake an you can lose friends over it.

 

[Rescued One]

I know but that's one of the toughest for me to answer. One mistake an you can lose friends over it.

That may be true. I won't argue religion with my friends --- I still want them to be friends. I've learned to be very quiet.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Augustinian, Calvin and Arminius don't determine my beliefs. I wasn't raised in a Christian home.

Here is why I don't believe fallen man can choose to follow Christ:

Faith is a gift of God and humans can't manufacture it.

The whole world is wicked (not politically correct!):

1 John 5 KJV
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

It means the world operates on might is right, like jungle animals.

1 John 5 NIV
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

The law of the jungle operates in the world.

The natural man doesn't understand spiritual things and several natural men whom I know not only don't care about the Bible or Christ, but find both the Bible and Christianity distasteful.

1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That is because for those who live by the law of the jungle spiritual things get in the way.

Is everyone spiritual?

Romans 3
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

This is used to argue against Gentiles who thought they had performed better than Jews because God had rejected Israel. Was Israel seeking after good when God chose her? No. Were Gentiles seeking for God when Peter began to turn away from the Jews to preach to them? No.

If they have Prevenient Grace, why don't they understand? Why is everyone under the control of the devil if they have this grace?

When the Bible talks about grace it is discussing God's initiative in reaching out to men. He does this by making them unhappy with life. He gave Joseph a dream which made his family unhappy and finally everyone ended up in Egypt. God's GRACE SENT ISRAEL INTO EGYPT. God's GRACE SENDS A CRISIS INTO YOUR LIFE. God uses a megaphone when the microphone doesn't work!

In Acts 26 Paul is sent to deliver the Gentiles from the power of Satan:

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

2 Timothy 2
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Those are my reasons.

My explanation is seen above.

Prevenient Grace:
For John Wesley, prevenient grace is available to all, such that there is no “natural man” left in a purely fallen state without a measure of God’s restorative grace. Furthermore, prevenient grace is salvific in direction.

This means the Spirit of God works not just to restore certain faculties of humanity or to limit human sin, but ultimately directs people to the work of Christ.
What is Prevenient Grace?

Prevenient grace cures Original Sin. But original sin is a wrong doctrine.

 

[fhansen]

The real question involves whether or not prevenient grace is resistible. And this question has been debated from Augustine or earlier, down through Aquinas, Molina, and the Reformers. And the Church has always come down on the side of grace being resistible. Man's will is truly free, at least to the extent that he can resist and reject God's call to him.

 

[Jwlickliter]

Augustinian, Calvin and Arminius don't determine my beliefs. I wasn't raised in a Christian home.

Here is why I don't believe fallen man can choose to follow Christ:

Faith is a gift of God and humans can't manufacture it.

The whole world is wicked (not politically correct!):

1 John 5 KJV
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.



It means the world operates on might is right, like jungle animals.

1 John 5 NIV
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.


The law of the jungle operates in the world.

The natural man doesn't understand spiritual things and several natural men whom I know not only don't care about the Bible or Christ, but find both the Bible and Christianity distasteful.

1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


That is because for those who live by the law of the jungle spiritual things get in the way.



Is everyone spiritual?

Romans 3
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.



This is used against Gentiles who thought they had performed better than Jews because God had rejected Israel. Was Israel seeking after good when God chose her? No. Were Gentiles seeking for God when Peter began to turn away from the Jews to preach to them? No.

If they have Prevenient Grace, why don't they understand? Why is everyone under the control of the devil if they have this grace?


When the Bible talks about grace it is discussing God's initiative in reaching out to men. He does this by making them unhappy with life. He gave Joseph a dream which made his family unhappy and finally everyone ended up in Egypt. God's GRACE SENT ISRAEL INTO EGYPT. God's GRACE SENDS A CRISIS INTO YOUR LIFE. God uses a megaphone when the microphone doesn't work!

In Acts 26 Paul is sent to deliver the Gentiles from the power of Satan:

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

2 Timothy 2
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Those are my reasons.


Like the above reasons.




Prevenient grace cures Original Sin. But original sin is a wrong doctrine.

We can't choose to follow Christ?

I thought God or Satan can't take away choice? Satan likes to make the selection a lot with technology but can't make us choose anything. Now I agree we might have a hard time doing nothing but we don't choose it?

If your getting at the fact I don't choose every heart beat? There are somethings going on that I didn't choose but not sure if this is the same thing here?

 

[Wordkeeper]

We can't choose to follow Christ?

I thought God or Satan can't take away choice? Satan likes to make the selection a lot with technology but can't make us choose anything. Now I agree we might have a hard time doing nothing but we don't choose it?

If your getting at the fact I don't choose every heart beat? There are somethings going on that I didn't choose but not sure if this is the same thing here?

Those are Phoebe's words.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Augustinian, Calvin and Arminius don't determine my beliefs. I wasn't raised in a Christian home.

Here is why I don't believe fallen man can choose to follow Christ:

Faith is a gift of God and humans can't manufacture it.

The whole world is wicked (not politically correct!):

1 John 5 KJV
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

1 John 5 NIV
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

The natural man doesn't understand spiritual things and several natural men whom I know not only don't care about the Bible or Christ, but find both the Bible and Christianity distasteful.

1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Is everyone spiritual?

Romans 3
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

If they have Prevenient Grace, why don't they understand? Why is everyone under the control of the devil if they have this grace?

In Acts 26 Paul is sent to deliver the Gentiles from the power of Satan:

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

2 Timothy 2
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Those are my reasons.

Augustine, Calvin, and I understand your very biblical position well. Arminius - not so much.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I've never heard it described as a feeling except in Mormonism.

Much of evangelical Christianity has replaced doctrine with feelings. "Asking Jesus into my heart" and "Jesus is my personal Savior" are indications of this, but if you really need convincing, just ask the average Christian in the US why you should believe in Christ, and his answer will sound an awful lot like: "because of the burning in my bosom". Their "testimony" is all about their personal experience, not the historical truths of the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The question is, is this a biblical concept, and if so, what scripture would be used to support it?

Prevenient Grace is not a biblical concept. For starters, its promoters claim that it is universal. They say that every person who has ever lived has been, at least temporarily, freed from the effects of the Fall and given the ability to place faith in Christ, regardless of if they have ever even heard of Christ.

The Bible finds this idea lacking in that faith is not anything in and of itself. One never simply has faith. Faith must always have an object, and be rooted in knowledge. Even those who have heard of Christ can't have faith in Him in an undefined way. We can have faith in Christ's salvific work on the cross, for example.

There are many in the Church who speak of faith in a manner that is disconnected from an object or knowledge; however, they don't get that idea from within the pages of scripture.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I've met a lot of people, so I'm sure that this covers everyone: "For every one that doeth evil. . ."

 

[HatGuy]

Prevenient Grace is not a biblical concept. For starters, its promoters claim that it is universal. They say that every person who has ever lived has been, at least temporarily, freed from the effects of sin and given the ability to place faith in Christ, regardless of if they have ever even heard of Christ.

This is a misrepresentation.

All Christian systems of theology will attest to a kind of prevenient grace. For example, John Piper (whose Calvinist credentials are surely unquestionable), in commenting on Romans 9:16, says: "Faith is indeed a sine qua non [the necessary] condition of salvation; Rom 9:16, therefore, necessary implies that the act of faith is ultimately owing to the prevenient grace of God." (See his Study of Romans.)

'Prevenient grace' in its most basic sense is implied all over the scriptures. For example, he loved us first (1 John 4:19). John 12:32 implies that Jesus' death draws all people unto himself. Titus 2:11 declares that God's grace has appeared to all men. Calvinists who know how to make the right distinctions will agree that there is a kind of prevenient grace, but will not agree with an Arminian that such grace can be resisted.

The argument is whether this grace is resistable or not, and whether election is conditioned on faith or predestination.

While I suppose some Arminians will espouse a sort of universalism, this is not true for all (just as some Calvinists espouse a hard-line fatalism, and some do not). Obviously, Paul made it clear that people must hear the good news to believe (Romans 10) and so there is an onus on us to be going and preaching it to them.

But one must not forget stories like Cornelius, who was specifically told by an angel to find Peter so he could be told. That is surely an example of prevenient grace - God made the first move to get Cornelius looking for the right answers.

The Bible finds this idea lacking in that faith is not anything in and of itself. One never simply has faith. Faith must always have an object, and be rooted in knowledge. Even those who have heard of Christ can't have faith in Him in an undefined way. We can have faith in Christ's salvific work on the cross, for example.

There are many in the Church who speak of faith in a manner that is disconnected from an object or knowledge; however, they don't get that idea from within the pages of scripture.

I agree with you on this aspect of faith (it must have an object otherwise it is nothing - it's not like some kind of magic) but I disagree on how you're applying this truth. I simply say you are given faith IN CHRIST (the object) by the Holy Spirit - you are given the revelation of Christ which sets free your sinful mind to actually believe, surrender, repent, etc. and thus be born again. The real argument lies in asking: can you, at that point (or at several points) actually choose to not believe it? Or is it irresistible?

On the other hand, human beings do possess faith in the sense that faith is a relational thing. It is part of what makes us relational, personal beings. This is because I am able to put my trust in things - make my security something or other. I can put my trust in the world's systems, or in Christ. I can put my trust into an idol, or into Christ. However, thanks to the Holy Spirit, I was freed to put my trust in Jesus - and he continues to give me the freedom to do exactly that.

 

[DeaconDean]

Prevenient Grace:
For John Wesley, prevenient grace is available to all, such that there is no “natural man” left in a purely fallen state without a measure of God’s restorative grace. Furthermore, prevenient grace is salvific in direction.

This means the Spirit of God works not just to restore certain faculties of humanity or to limit human sin, but ultimately directs people to the work of Christ.
What is Prevenient Grace?

Now you said previously:

Augustinian, Calvin and Arminius don't determine my beliefs.

And yet, you end your post saying you believe in _________ .

"Those are my reasons."

There is something wrong here.

"Prevenient Grace", even though you attribute it to John Wesley, is a product of "Arminian/Remonstrant" theology.

Jacobus Arminus wrote:

"Concerning grace and free will, this is what I teach according to the Scriptures and orthodox consent: Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace...This grace goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, and co-operates lest we will in vain."

The Works of James Arminus, Volume II, Grace and Free Will

Arminus' died almost 100 years before John Wesley was even born.

Believe it or not sister, your letting Arminus define your beliefs.

God Bless

Till all are one.