Prevenient Grace

[A_Thinker]

Is everyone saved?

No ... not everyone desires to be saved (i.e. reconciled with God).

But Jesus has made it possible for all men/women to be reconciled to God.

 

[HatGuy]

You do realize that countless millions have died without ever hearing the gospel, right?

Of course.

I didn't say, "Universalism". I said: universal.

That's why I said a 'kind of' universalism. Also, without a capital U.

I'll try again:

For starters, its promoters claim that it is universal. They say that every person who has ever lived has been, at least temporarily, freed from the effects of the Fall and given the ability to place faith in Christ, regardless of if they have ever even heard of Christ.

This is a misrepresentation. It is not true that proponents of prevenient grace say this or believe this. Perhaps some do, but I don't know who they are.

 

[A_Thinker]

We can't choose to follow Christ?

I thought God or Satan can't take away choice? Satan likes to make the selection a lot with technology but can't make us choose anything. Now I agree we might have a hard time doing nothing but we don't choose it?

If your getting at the fact I don't choose every heart beat? There are somethings going on that I didn't choose but not sure if this is the same thing here?

What's being said is that fallen humans cannot choose God ... without being enabled to do so by God.

Most christians agree with this position.

Where disagreement occurs has to do with whethers God gifts ALL people with this enabling, ... or ONLY those whom He has chosen to save (not everyone). This enabling by God (whether to SOME or to ALL) is referred to as Prevenient Grace by some christians.

Many christians take the position that the scriptures teach that God desires the salvation of ALL MEN, ... even while knowing ALL MEN will not choose to be saved, based upon such scriptures as shown below ...

"Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden."

"For God so loved the world ... "

"For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Of course.


That's why I said a 'kind of' universalism. Also, without a capital U.

I'll try again:


This is a misrepresentation. It is not true that proponents of prevenient grace say this or believe this. Perhaps some do, but I don't know who they are.

You: "The real argument lies in asking: can you, at that point (or at several points) actually choose to not believe it?"

Me: Believe what?

You: The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Me: You do realize that couples millions have died never hearing the gospel of Christ, right?

You: of course.

How are you suggesting that people chose with to or to not believe in what they know not?

 

[Jwlickliter]

Where is this church that teaches this idea?

 

[Jwlickliter]

You never know where your at, till your there looking back.

 

[HatGuy]

How are you suggesting that people chose with to or to not believe in what they know not?

I am not saying people choose Christ when they have not heard of Christ, or have not heard the gospel.

I can see where you're going with this though.

Romans 1 & 2 indicate that God has revealed aspects of himself to all people.

Romans 1:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

So God has made aspects of himself clear to all people. Yes, there is a universal grace, I suppose, but this (I am sure) would fit under the term 'common grace'.

Romans 2:
14b (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

This indicates that God has revealed aspects of his law to all people as well.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Romans 1 & 2 indicate that God has revealed aspects of himself to all people.

Yes. I love Romans 1. It does indeed say that there is enough revelation of God t make me guilty, as they all know wrong; however, natural revelation does not contain the gospel. Natural revelation can get you condemned, but not saved.

 

[HatGuy]

Yes. I love Romans 1. It does indeed say that there is enough revelation of God t make me guilty, as they all know wrong; however, natural revelation does not contain the gospel. Natural revelation can get you condemned, but not saved.

So then we are agreed on this.

Where we disagree, I imagine, is exactly who can be saved. I say that ANYONE who hears the Gospel CAN be saved. If you are Calvinist, you would say only those predestined to be saved WILL be saved when they hear the Gospel.

This possibility that ALL who hear the Gospel can be saved is 'prevenient grace'. It is a grace that can be resisted.

"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ." (Romans 10:17)

 

[Hammster]

This possibility that ALL who hear the Gospel can be saved is 'prevenient grace'. It is a grace that can be resisted.

What does this grace actually do?

 

[HatGuy]

What does this grace actually do?

It's a work of the Holy Spirit, enabling a sinner to believe in Christ.

 

[sdowney717]

So then we are agreed on this.

Where we disagree, I imagine, is exactly who can be saved. I say that ANYONE who hears the Gospel CAN be saved. If you are Calvinist, you would say only those predestined to be saved WILL be saved when they hear the Gospel.

This possibility that ALL who hear the Gospel can be saved is 'prevenient grace'. It is a grace that can be resisted.

"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ." (Romans 10:17)

Understanding who can be saved has to do with who God has regenerated-made them born of God.
That is God's choice, not of our will. John 1:13. All those who believe Jesus is the Christ have been born of God.

Because only those God makes born again will be entering into the kingdom of God, and you must be born of God first to then enter the kingdom later. We enter in upon confessing Christ as Lord.
We believe after regeneration as He gives us the new heart, the new spirit. God teaches us about Christ by the Holy Spirit, and then we come to Christ in faith, entrusting ourselves to Him, and then God seals us after we believe as a guarantee of our eternal inheritance of everlasting life.
So it all begins with God. He is the author and finisher of our faith, it is He who began a good work in us, the washing of regeneration, and he will bring it to completion.

 

[Hammster]

It's a work of the Holy Spirit, enabling a sinner to believe in Christ.

At the point of the enabling, are they in the flesh still, or in the spirit?

 

[A_Thinker]

So it all begins with God. He is the author and finisher of our faith, it is He who began a good work in us, the washing of regeneration, and he will bring it to completion.

Yes ... our disagreement is about HOW God does what He does ...

 

[rjs330]

Yes. I love Romans 1. It does indeed say that there is enough revelation of God t make me guilty, as they all know wrong; however, natural revelation does not contain the gospel. Natural revelation can get you condemned, but not saved.

The Bible says that all those who seek him shall find him. If Romans 1 is true then it is also true that if those spoken of in Romans seek the God that is plain to them they will find him. God will make himself known to those who really want to know him.

 

[rjs330]

The Bible does reveal to us that at times God does choose who to save and does choose those who he has made for destruction. He does not do that with every person but there are times he does. Why? Because he is God and has that right. His ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts.

 

[HatGuy]

At the point of the enabling, are they in the flesh still, or in the spirit?

That's a great question. Thank you for making me think.

The Calvinist is in the same predicament, though.

I'm not sure if it can be answered by either camp. But there's nothing wrong with saying that one does not have to have the Spirit indwelling to be enabled to believe. You cannot get born again before you have faith in Christ. Faith first, then indwelt Spirit.

 

[HatGuy]

That is God's choice, not of our will. John 1:13. All those who believe Jesus is the Christ have been born of God.

You'll notice it's faith first, then regeneration / born again. (The Calvinist puts regeneration first, but I can't find a single scripture that says that).

Since it is faith first, the question is how does God supply such faith? Through a predetermined decision? Or through some other means? My answer: through the Gospel which is the power of salvation. Through the Word of Christ, as Romans 10:17 says. Therefore, anyone who hears this Word of Christ can believe. God's grace ensures this. (This is prevenient grace.) But they also may choose not to, and so be condemned.

God chose His Son, in whom we have redemption.

 

[sdowney717]

That's a great question. Thank you for making me think.

The Calvinist is in the same predicament, though.

I'm not sure if it can be answered by either camp. But there's nothing wrong with saying that one does not have to have the Spirit indwelling to be enabled to believe. You cannot get born again before you have faith in Christ. Faith first, then indwelt Spirit.

Not the same predicament, in order for you to be pleasing to God you must be in the Spirit not the flesh, so being born again prior to faith makes perfect sense.
If the carnal natural mind is enmity with God, then how can it have faith in Christ?

I think you just don't like the implications to your POV if you start thinking like a calvinist.

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

If the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, how can it obey God's command to repent and believe the gospel of Christ?

 

[Hammster]

That's a great question. Thank you for making me think.

The Calvinist is in the same predicament, though.

I'm not sure if it can be answered by either camp. But there's nothing wrong with saying that one does not have to have the Spirit indwelling to be enabled to believe. You cannot get born again before you have faith in Christ. Faith first, then indwelt Spirit.

The Calvinist isn't in the same predicament. We believe that regeneration precedes faith, so we aren't in the flesh at the time of belief.