Korean-American Christian
raised Presbyterian. member of the Nazarene Church
- Feb 21, 2017
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Ultimately God's effectual working grace for those He intends to save is irresistible.Strange question, going by the OP. But in any case I do believe in prevenient grace- I just don't believe it's irresistible.
Nothing avails except that we become a New Creation.Arminians say that prevenient grace is available to everyone.
The problem is....there is no explicit Biblical support for prevenient grace
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\Ultimately God's effectual working grace for those He intends to save is irresistible.
Christ's conversion of Paul shows us that it can hurt to kick against the pricks or goads of God's prodding.
God definitely intervenes against the freewill of the creature. Paul had no desire for Christ until Christ revealed Himself as the Lord Jesus Christ. But it seems Paul was also missing the cues before this experience.
Acts 9
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Figurative language, not necessarily meant to build a whole theology around. But yes, we're dead, spiritually-the Church has always recognized that. She's also recognized that, while he must be awakened, man's will is still not beyond preferring sleep/death/sin-and/or returning to it after "tasting of the heavenly gift".So is this person dead in sin, or alive in Christ, if they aren't yet saved?
So he's dead but awakened? Is that your position?Figurative language, not necessarily meant to build a whole theology around. But yes, we're dead, spiritually-the Church has always recognized that. She's also recognized that, while he must be awakened, the will is not beyond preferring sleep/death.
A prevenient grace that accomplishes nothing is worthless, we must be born again.
The effectual working of God's grace leads to salvation, otherwise it would be pointless, does God waste His time giving out patience and grace to those He knows will never repent? But He is patient with 'us' whom He foreknew as His own, not willing that any of us He foreknew perish. There is no other name given out among men under heaven whereby WE (the elect) MUST (not can) be saved. So as Peter wrote, God is not willing that any of YOU perish, which means they won't perish as He will in His effectual working grace grant repentance.
If you are just going to post links, please don't. This makes it not a discussion.What does the term prevenient grace mean?
Prevenient grace is merely persuasive and enabling, but may freely be accepted or rejected by the arbitrary choice of its subjects. This doctrine of resistible, indiscriminate prevenient grace for all men is held today in many Arminian/Wesleyan theologies and denominations throughout Christianity.
However, the doctrine of prevenient grace, as it is explained in Arminian theology, finds no support from scripture. It is true, of course, that the regenerating grace of God must come before faith, and so in that sense it is prevenient; however, this Biblical prevenient grace goes far beyond the Arminian conception; when God grants his quickening grace to unbelievers, it does not merely give them the option to be alive – it makes them alive (Eph. 2:1-5; Ezek. 37:3-6, 11-14; John 1:11-13, 3:3-8; 5:21; Jam. 1:18; 1 Pet, 1:3; 1 John 5:1); it does not merely grant them the ability to come – it irresistibly draws them all without exception (John 6:37-40, 45; Psalm 65:4 Rom. 9:15); it does not merely make them able to choose good if they improve upon it – it causes them to walk in God's statues (Deut. 30:6; Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Jer. 31:33; 32:40).
Against the Arminian doctrine of prevenient grace, the Bible teaches that there are only two classes of people: those whom the Father has chosen and given to the Son, all of whom without exception will come to him (John 6:37-40, 45); and those whom the Father has not given to the Son, who are not of his sheep, and who therefore cannot believe (John 6:65; 10:26; 12:37-41).
In the end the problem with Arminian prevenient grace is that it is guided by unaided human logic and rationality rather than the Scriptures.The Scriptures testify that the man without the Spirit cannot understand the things of God (1 Cor 2:14).
Regeneration comes before our confession by the mouth that Jesus is Lord.\
Man's free choice is always a necessary part of the equation. And we don't even know with 100% certainty who the elect are, who will persevere and who will not.
Yes, the knowledge of and desire for God must be reawakened. He must be born again/born anew, risen from the dead, however we want to characterize it. Imperfect language but the best we have. Even after a clear call from God, however, he may fall back to sleep.So he's dead but awakened? Is that your position?
Sure, and many will believe they're saved-with a self-assessed level of faith: "Lord. Lord..."Regeneration comes before our confession by the mouth that Jesus is Lord.
Because the heart believes unto righteousness, and an evil heart of unbelief, the old man must be replaced by the new creation, the new heart. All those that confess Jesus is Lord, all those who call upon the Lord Jesus to save them, Paul says will be saved. If they are saved, then they were elect and are elect. God takes care of all these pesky details, Jesus tells us not to marvel how, just that the wind of His Spirit blows where He wills and they are born of God.
Romans 10, we must agree this is the word of the Lord to us, God's command is eternal life to the sheep of Christ and He gives them eternal life and they will never perish..Be confident that God who began a good work in you, will bring it to completion on the Day of Jesus Christ, (Day of the Lord)
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Okay. Scripture has a dividing line when it describes people. Lost/saved, alive/dead, sheep/goats.Yes, the knowledge of and desire for God must be reawakened. He must be born again/born anew, risen from the dead, however we want to characterize it. Imperfect language but the best we have. Even after a clear call from God, however, he may fall back to sleep.
There is no ambiguity, uncertainty of salvation. Even those believers who lived poor lives, will be saved, but they may suffer loss of rewards. Jesus said everyone will be salted with fire, if their works burn up they themselves will be saved but as through fire. What remains will always be the foundation of their salvation, their living relationship with God in the Spirit.Sure, and many will believe they're saved-with a self-assessed level of faith: "Lord. Lord..."
The best way to know one is saved, even if it's still not with the absolute knowledge that God, alone, has, is by our fruits, the way we live our lives as a result, what we do, how we've changed. The rest is talk.
Reformed Theology sees prevenient grace as regeneration, as it concerns Soteriology.
Non Reformed Theology sees it more as freeing the will to be able to believe, but not necessarily regeneration. As I understand it, it's agreed that we are dead in sin, but God does something to us to enable us to believe, though the choice to believe is still ours to make.
I am more than willing to accept a better definition if someone would like to provide it. This is just my understanding as I've pieced it together through the years.
The question is, is this a biblical concept, and if so, what scripture would be used to support it?
I don't recall conjuring up a born again dead person-only a person who was spiritually dead, "born dead", separated from his Maker, lost, who needed to be spiritually awoken/reborn/shown the way home. He needs an injection of grace to enliven him but, again, if he doesn't like it he's still free to say no, to remain dead in his sins. God has called man to choose life over death from the beginning. And that's a continuous walk, not a one-time event only.Okay. Scripture has a dividing line when it describes people. Lost/saved, alive/dead, sheep/goats.
How does scripture describe this born again dead person you've conjured up?
What's the difference, biblically, between an alive person and an enlivened person?I don't recall conjuring up a born again dead person-only a person who was spiritually dead, "born dead", separated from his Maker, lost, who needed to be spiritually awoken/reborn/shown the way home. He needs an injection of grace to enliven him but, again, if he doesn't like it he's still free to say no, to remain dead in his sins.
I don't recall conjuring up a born again dead person-only a person who was spiritually dead, "born dead", separated from his Maker, lost, who needed to be spiritually awoken/reborn/shown the way home. He needs an injection of grace to enliven him but, again, if he doesn't like it he's still free to say no, to remain dead in his sins. God has called man to choose life over death from the beginning. And that's a continuous walk, not a one-time event only.
What do you believe the Bible means when it says dead in sin?Does this enlightening change a person in any way? Or are they still dead in sin?
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”