Prevenient Grace

[Korean-American Christian]

Is it said to be available to everyone?
Because that doesn't square and would not be biblical I think.

Arminians say that prevenient grace is available to everyone.

The problem is....there is no explicit Biblical support for prevenient grace

 

[sdowney717]

Strange question, going by the OP. But in any case I do believe in prevenient grace- I just don't believe it's irresistible.

Ultimately God's effectual working grace for those He intends to save is irresistible.
Christ's conversion of Paul shows us that it can hurt to kick against the pricks or goads of God's prodding.
God definitely intervenes against the freewill of the creature. Paul had no desire for Christ until Christ revealed Himself as the Lord Jesus Christ. But it seems Paul was also missing the cues before this experience.

Acts 9
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

 

[sdowney717]

Arminians say that prevenient grace is available to everyone.

The problem is....there is no explicit Biblical support for prevenient grace
View attachment 203126

Nothing avails except that we become a New Creation.
A prevenient grace that accomplishes nothing is worthless, we must be born again.
The effectual working of God's grace leads to salvation, otherwise it would be pointless, does God waste His time giving out patience and grace to those He knows will never repent? But He is patient with 'us' whom He foreknew as His own, not willing that any of us He foreknew perish. There is no other name given out among men under heaven whereby WE (the elect) MUST (not can) be saved. So as Peter wrote, God is not willing that any of YOU perish, which means they won't perish as He will in His effectual working grace grant repentance.

Galatians 6:14-16New King James Version (NKJV)
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy beupon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Galatians 2, effective working means God is saving people by His grace.

7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),

Regarding the vessels of wrath, the tares of the devil who have no grace - mercy from the Lord to be saved, God bears longsufferingly, endures their evil ways until the final time of their destruction, but He wants to destroy then NOW, but that could hurt the wheat, those Christ plants as new creations in Him in God's field the world, refer to Christ's teaching of the wheat and the tares.

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

God's end goal for His people and the world and heaven is clearly read in Revelation the last 2 chapters.

 

[fhansen]

Ultimately God's effectual working grace for those He intends to save is irresistible.
Christ's conversion of Paul shows us that it can hurt to kick against the pricks or goads of God's prodding.
God definitely intervenes against the freewill of the creature. Paul had no desire for Christ until Christ revealed Himself as the Lord Jesus Christ. But it seems Paul was also missing the cues before this experience.

Acts 9
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

\
Man's free choice is always a necessary part of the equation. And we don't even know with 100% certainty who the elect are, who will persevere and who will not.

 

[fhansen]

So is this person dead in sin, or alive in Christ, if they aren't yet saved?

Figurative language, not necessarily meant to build a whole theology around. But yes, we're dead, spiritually-the Church has always recognized that. She's also recognized that, while he must be awakened, man's will is still not beyond preferring sleep/death/sin-and/or returning to it after "tasting of the heavenly gift".

 

[Hammster]

Figurative language, not necessarily meant to build a whole theology around. But yes, we're dead, spiritually-the Church has always recognized that. She's also recognized that, while he must be awakened, the will is not beyond preferring sleep/death.

So he's dead but awakened? Is that your position?

 

[Korean-American Christian]

A prevenient grace that accomplishes nothing is worthless, we must be born again.
The effectual working of God's grace leads to salvation, otherwise it would be pointless, does God waste His time giving out patience and grace to those He knows will never repent? But He is patient with 'us' whom He foreknew as His own, not willing that any of us He foreknew perish. There is no other name given out among men under heaven whereby WE (the elect) MUST (not can) be saved. So as Peter wrote, God is not willing that any of YOU perish, which means they won't perish as He will in His effectual working grace grant repentance.

What does the term prevenient grace mean?

Prevenient grace is merely persuasive and enabling, but may freely be accepted or rejected by the arbitrary choice of its subjects. This doctrine of resistible, indiscriminate prevenient grace for all men is held today in many Arminian/Wesleyan theologies and denominations throughout Christianity.

However, the doctrine of prevenient grace, as it is explained in Arminian theology, finds no support from Scripture. It is true, of course, that the regenerating grace of God must come before faith, and so in that sense it is prevenient; however, this Biblical prevenient grace goes far beyond the Arminian conception; when God grants his quickening grace to unbelievers, it does not merely give them the option to be alive – it makes them alive (Eph. 2:1-5; Ezek. 37:3-6, 11-14; John 1:11-13, 3:3-8; 5:21; Jam. 1:18; 1 Pet, 1:3; 1 John 5:1); it does not merely grant them the ability to come – it irresistibly draws them all without exception (John 6:37-40, 45; Psalm 65:4 Rom. 9:15); it does not merely make them able to choose good if they improve upon it – it causes them to walk in God's statues (Deut. 30:6; Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Jer. 31:33; 32:40).

Against the Arminian doctrine of prevenient grace, the Bible teaches that there are only two classes of people: those whom the Father has chosen and given to the Son, all of whom without exception will come to him (John 6:37-40, 45); and those whom the Father has not given to the Son, who are not of his sheep, and who therefore cannot believe (John 6:65; 10:26; 12:37-41).

In the end the problem with Arminian prevenient grace is that it is guided by unaided human logic and rationality rather than the Scriptures.The Scriptures testify that the man without the Spirit cannot understand the things of God (1 Cor 2:14).

 

[Hammster]

What does the term prevenient grace mean?

Prevenient grace is merely persuasive and enabling, but may freely be accepted or rejected by the arbitrary choice of its subjects. This doctrine of resistible, indiscriminate prevenient grace for all men is held today in many Arminian/Wesleyan theologies and denominations throughout Christianity.

However, the doctrine of prevenient grace, as it is explained in Arminian theology, finds no support from scripture. It is true, of course, that the regenerating grace of God must come before faith, and so in that sense it is prevenient; however, this Biblical prevenient grace goes far beyond the Arminian conception; when God grants his quickening grace to unbelievers, it does not merely give them the option to be alive – it makes them alive (Eph. 2:1-5; Ezek. 37:3-6, 11-14; John 1:11-13, 3:3-8; 5:21; Jam. 1:18; 1 Pet, 1:3; 1 John 5:1); it does not merely grant them the ability to come – it irresistibly draws them all without exception (John 6:37-40, 45; Psalm 65:4 Rom. 9:15); it does not merely make them able to choose good if they improve upon it – it causes them to walk in God's statues (Deut. 30:6; Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Jer. 31:33; 32:40).

Against the Arminian doctrine of prevenient grace, the Bible teaches that there are only two classes of people: those whom the Father has chosen and given to the Son, all of whom without exception will come to him (John 6:37-40, 45); and those whom the Father has not given to the Son, who are not of his sheep, and who therefore cannot believe (John 6:65; 10:26; 12:37-41).

In the end the problem with Arminian prevenient grace is that it is guided by unaided human logic and rationality rather than the Scriptures.The Scriptures testify that the man without the Spirit cannot understand the things of God (1 Cor 2:14).

If you are just going to post links, please don't. This makes it not a discussion.

Thanks.

 

[sdowney717]

\
Man's free choice is always a necessary part of the equation. And we don't even know with 100% certainty who the elect are, who will persevere and who will not.

Regeneration comes before our confession by the mouth that Jesus is Lord.
Because the heart believes unto righteousness, and an evil heart of unbelief, the old man must be replaced by the new creation, the new heart. All those that confess Jesus is Lord, all those who call upon the Lord Jesus to save them, Paul says will be saved. If they are saved, then they were elect and are elect. God takes care of all these pesky details, Jesus tells us not to marvel how, just that the wind of His Spirit blows where He wills and they are born of God.

Romans 10, we must agree this is the word of the Lord to us, God's command is eternal life to the sheep of Christ and He gives them eternal life and they will never perish..Be confident that God who began a good work in you, will bring it to completion on the Day of Jesus Christ, (Day of the Lord)

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.

13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

 

[fhansen]

So he's dead but awakened? Is that your position?

Yes, the knowledge of and desire for God must be reawakened. He must be born again/born anew, risen from the dead, however we want to characterize it. Imperfect language but the best we have. Even after a clear call from God, however, he may fall back to sleep.

 

[fhansen]

Regeneration comes before our confession by the mouth that Jesus is Lord.
Because the heart believes unto righteousness, and an evil heart of unbelief, the old man must be replaced by the new creation, the new heart. All those that confess Jesus is Lord, all those who call upon the Lord Jesus to save them, Paul says will be saved. If they are saved, then they were elect and are elect. God takes care of all these pesky details, Jesus tells us not to marvel how, just that the wind of His Spirit blows where He wills and they are born of God.

Romans 10, we must agree this is the word of the Lord to us, God's command is eternal life to the sheep of Christ and He gives them eternal life and they will never perish..Be confident that God who began a good work in you, will bring it to completion on the Day of Jesus Christ, (Day of the Lord)

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.

13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Sure, and many will believe they're saved-with a self-assessed level of faith: "Lord. Lord..."

The best way to know one is saved, even if it's still not with the absolute knowledge that God, alone, has, is by our fruits, the way we live our lives as a result, what we do, how we've changed. The rest is talk.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, the knowledge of and desire for God must be reawakened. He must be born again/born anew, risen from the dead, however we want to characterize it. Imperfect language but the best we have. Even after a clear call from God, however, he may fall back to sleep.

Okay. Scripture has a dividing line when it describes people. Lost/saved, alive/dead, sheep/goats.

How does scripture describe this born again dead person you've conjured up?

 

[sdowney717]

Sure, and many will believe they're saved-with a self-assessed level of faith: "Lord. Lord..."

The best way to know one is saved, even if it's still not with the absolute knowledge that God, alone, has, is by our fruits, the way we live our lives as a result, what we do, how we've changed. The rest is talk.

There is no ambiguity, uncertainty of salvation. Even those believers who lived poor lives, will be saved, but they may suffer loss of rewards. Jesus said everyone will be salted with fire, if their works burn up they themselves will be saved but as through fire. What remains will always be the foundation of their salvation, their living relationship with God in the Spirit.
Now those who say they have no faith, do not believe anymore, are not born of God, because all those who are born of God overcome the world by their faith. So faithless ones are not ever been born of God, they were pretenders, hypocrites.

Note v16, the certainty of salvation, how is God's promise made sure to all the seed of Abraham?
By grace alone which produces in us faith. Those who persevere in the faith do so because of the grace of God.

Romans 4:15-18 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Reformed Theology sees prevenient grace as regeneration, as it concerns Soteriology.

Non Reformed Theology sees it more as freeing the will to be able to believe, but not necessarily regeneration. As I understand it, it's agreed that we are dead in sin, but God does something to us to enable us to believe, though the choice to believe is still ours to make.

I am more than willing to accept a better definition if someone would like to provide it. This is just my understanding as I've pieced it together through the years.

The question is, is this a biblical concept, and if so, what scripture would be used to support it?

Great OP. Look forward to catching up when I have some time tonight.

My guess is that you won't find a lot of non-Reformed folks who are with the idea of prevenient grace. I've read and posted quite a bit here, and I've seen that Pelagians outnumber Arminians 100 to 1.

 

[fhansen]

Okay. Scripture has a dividing line when it describes people. Lost/saved, alive/dead, sheep/goats.

How does scripture describe this born again dead person you've conjured up?

I don't recall conjuring up a born again dead person-only a person who was spiritually dead, "born dead", separated from his Maker, lost, who needed to be spiritually awoken/reborn/shown the way home. He needs an injection of grace to enliven him but, again, if he doesn't like it he's still free to say no, to remain dead in his sins. God has called man to choose life over death from the beginning. And that's a continuous walk, not a one-time event only.

 

[Hammster]

I don't recall conjuring up a born again dead person-only a person who was spiritually dead, "born dead", separated from his Maker, lost, who needed to be spiritually awoken/reborn/shown the way home. He needs an injection of grace to enliven him but, again, if he doesn't like it he's still free to say no, to remain dead in his sins.

What's the difference, biblically, between an alive person and an enlivened person?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I don't recall conjuring up a born again dead person-only a person who was spiritually dead, "born dead", separated from his Maker, lost, who needed to be spiritually awoken/reborn/shown the way home. He needs an injection of grace to enliven him but, again, if he doesn't like it he's still free to say no, to remain dead in his sins. God has called man to choose life over death from the beginning. And that's a continuous walk, not a one-time event only.

Are we to go with your recollection and experience or biblical texts?

 

[RisenInJesus]

Does this enlightening change a person in any way? Or are they still dead in sin?

What do you believe the Bible means when it says dead in sin?

 

[A_Thinker]

13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Why do the scriptures use such language (in literally scores of places) ... when the more direct truth (according to Calvinists) ... is that "whosoever the Lord predetermines shall be saved."

 

[fhansen]

What's the difference, biblically, between an alive person and an enlivened person?

An enlivened person is one who's made alive, reborn, etc. Once enlivened there is no difference. Of course. What's the point?