Prevenient Grace

[Hammster]

JESUS says ... that they are changed ... such that they COME to the LIGHT.

They didn't come before ... they are coming now. Though He does not explain what change has occurred, there has to be one ...

So you are just speculating?

 

[A_Thinker]

So you are just speculating?

Nope ... just the opposite ... I'm believing Jesus.

He owes me no explanations of how this occurs ...

 

[Rescued One]

Prevenient Grace isn't regeneration because everyone on the planet is said to have it --- that's my understanding of the Arminian view. Calvinists, I believe, teach that only the elect are regenerated.


http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/our-wesleyan-heritage

 

[A_Thinker]

So at what point does God show grace?

From conception ... ???

 

[Friend-of-Jesus]

What was it that Cornelius had ... prior to his meeting with Peter ?

Or the Ethiopian eunuch ... prior to his meeting with Philip ?

Fear of death, interest, some faith etc

 

[Friend-of-Jesus]

Is that previous? Or are you still waiting for Calvary?

In the past for us today.

 

[Hammster]

Nope ... just the opposite ... I'm believing Jesus.

He owes me no explanations of how this occurs ...

You said they are changed so that they come to the light. So the changing seems to be the catalyst for coming to the light. Why do they need to be changed?

 

[Hammster]

In the past for us today.

Which would make it before now, correct?

 

[A_Thinker]

A_Thinker said: ↑

What was it that Cornelius had ... prior to his meeting with Peter ?

Or the Ethiopian eunuch ... prior to his meeting with Philip ?

Friend-of-Jesus said:

Fear of death, interest, some faith etc

Whatever it was ... it DROVE them to the LIGHT.

 

[A_Thinker]

You said they are changed so that they come to the light. So the changing seems to be the catalyst for coming to the light. Why do they need to be changed?

Because natural men, (i.e. unenlightened/untouched by God), ... do not seek the LIGHT.

 

[fhansen]

Reformed Theology sees prevenient grace as regeneration, as it concerns Soteriology.

Non Reformed Theology sees it more as freeing the will to be able to believe, but not necessarily regeneration. As I understand it, it's agreed that we are dead in sin, but God does something to us to enable us to believe, though the choice to believe is still ours to make.

I am more than willing to accept a better definition if someone would like to provide it. This is just my understanding as I've pieced it together through the years.

The question is, is this a biblical concept, and if so, what scripture would be used to support it?

It's not at all complicated; God just calls us and asks us to respond, which He won't force us to do. Our response, our "yes", is a movement towards justice. From there He completes the process; He justifies us.

 

[Petros2015]

In Mark 4:11-12, we can see that Jesus intentionally spoke in parables, instead of plain language, so that many people would *not* understand, repent, and be forgiven. This is clearly the opposite of Arminian prevenient grace.

Maybe I don't fully understand what Arminian prevenient grace is and how this would be the opposite. Is it said to be available to everyone?

i.e.

"all are called and all are chosen"
or "many are called and of those that are called all are chosen"?

Because that doesn't square and would not be biblical I think.

I don't know how to answer other than to say

1) I got the call (which I would describe as prevenient grace based on my *very limited* understanding of it from a wikipedia search)

2) It didn't come from me. It arrived at a level of self-reflection that was beyond my capability. I wasn't even *capable* of praying at the time. I had tried and nothing came out, I was so far lost. I was drunk and in a dive bar at the time.

3) From that point forward, I feel that there is a awakening and salvation process had been initiated. I didn't know it had been initiated but it had. I don't believe in "altar-call saved and done". It just hasn't been the case for me personally, if it is for others, I envy them, I really do. And honestly, I think different people may have different salvation walks. I try not to question someone else's, I just try to continue in mine.

So what does this call do? Are all who hear it still dead in sin, or does this call change them in some way?

It was a point of revelation, awakening and realization of my own standing, "I'm just another drunk a**h*le at the bar" and the start of turning over and surrendering my life and will to God. That's a lifelong process, I really feel. At the end, I'll say "by Grace it was done" and speak truly, for it won't have been me that did it, but Him working in me. Faith says it will be so. But faith is a two-way street. Having received the call, if I am then faithless to God, what shall I expect from Him? I expect He will reward the faithless as well as the faithful, just not in the same way.

 

[Hammster]

Because natural men, (i.e. unenlightened/untouched by God), ... do not seek the LIGHT.

So it does change them. So it's safe to say that those who do not seek the light are unchanged/unenlightened/untouched.

 

[Hammster]

It's not at all complicated; God just calls us and asks us to respond, which He won't force us to do. Our response, our "yes", is a movement towards justice. From there He completes the process; He justifies us.

So you don't hold to prevenient grace. Why are you posting here?

 

[A_Thinker]

So it does change them. So it's safe to say that those who do not seek the light are unchanged/unenlightened/untouched.

No ... because John 1:9 says that ALL MEN are enlightened ... by the LIGHT.

"That was the true LIGHT ... that enlightens every man that comes into the world." John 1:9

 

[A_Thinker]

fhansen said: ↑

It's not at all complicated; God just calls us and asks us to respond, which He won't force us to do. Our response, our "yes", is a movement towards justice. From there He completes the process; He justifies us.

Hammster said: So you don't hold to prevenient grace. Why are you posting here?

I beg to differ ...

He said that God began working/enlightening him in his life ... likely since his birth/conception.

And ... at some point, he responded to God's work/call in His life.

He goes on to say that God is still working in his life ...

 

[Friend-of-Jesus]

Which would make it before now, correct?

Absolutely

 

[HatGuy]

Reformed Theology sees prevenient grace as regeneration, as it concerns Soteriology.

Non Reformed Theology sees it more as freeing the will to be able to believe, but not necessarily regeneration. As I understand it, it's agreed that we are dead in sin, but God does something to us to enable us to believe, though the choice to believe is still ours to make.

I am more than willing to accept a better definition if someone would like to provide it. This is just my understanding as I've pieced it together through the years.

The question is, is this a biblical concept, and if so, what scripture would be used to support it?

It might be helpful to outline the 'ordo salutis' of Reformed vs non-reformed, to help make distinctions clearer.

Calvinist:
Election
Predestination
Calling
Regeneration
Faith
Repentance
Justification
Sanctification
Perseverance
Glorification

Arminian:
Calling
Prevenient Grace
Faith
Repentance
Regeneration
Justification
Perseverance
Glorification

Note, in the Calvinist scheme, regeneration precedes faith and repentance. In the Arminian scheme, it comes after faith and repentance.

Why is this important? Because regeneration means someone is given a new heart - in the Calvinist sense, they are given this new heart before actually coming to faith. Is that how the Bible puts it, though? That's the question.

I mention this because it highlights what prevenient grace is - the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the enablement to faith - the faith that leads to regeneration. In other words, in the Arminian scheme, it is still supernatural (not possible without the Holy Spirit) while conditioned on faith, not on predestination. God creates the right faith in the heart, but the person can still resist that faith.

It would be easy to pull up all the scriptures that condition salvation on faith. My point in all this is to show that if you believe the Holy Spirit prepares a person for salvation in any way, then you actually believe in prevenient grace. Election is a kind-of prevenient grace, it's just that the Calvinists don't call it prevenient grace, because 'prevenient grace' as a technical, theological term has come to mean 'resistable grace'. But in a broad sense, we all believe in prevenient grace of some kind.

This means that the only thing that should really get you to accept either the calvinist or arminian scheme, in this conversation at least, would come down to whether salvation is conditioned on faith, and if so, which of the above two orders of salvation come closer to what we see in the scriptures. I maintain that the Calvinist put regeneration in the wrong spot, and secondly that they are not following the main argument of the gospel as found in the scriptures that salvation is dependent on faith. Instead, they make salvation dependent on God's Hidden Will, his predestination, which not only short-circuits assurance of salvation but makes something of a confusion of faith itself.

 

[Hammster]

No ... because John 1:9 says that ALL MEN are enlightened ... by the LIGHT.

"That was the true LIGHT ... that enlightens every man that comes into the world." John 1:9

Then it's not the light that changed. According to you, the light natural men aren't changed.

 

[Tree of Life]

Reformed Theology sees prevenient grace as regeneration, as it concerns Soteriology.

Non Reformed Theology sees it more as freeing the will to be able to believe, but not necessarily regeneration. As I understand it, it's agreed that we are dead in sin, but God does something to us to enable us to believe, though the choice to believe is still ours to make.

I am more than willing to accept a better definition if someone would like to provide it. This is just my understanding as I've pieced it together through the years.

The question is, is this a biblical concept, and if so, what scripture would be used to support it?

No there is no biblical basis for an idea like prevenient grace.