Is Christianity Bad News for Women?

[hedrick]

This is a tough read, but a really helpful look at dynamics of domestic violence as it relates to Christian faith. I thought others here might appreciate it, too:

'Submit to your husbands': Women told to endure domestic violence in the name of God

I agree. It's tough. Do you have any sense what fraction of churches actually deal reasonably with abuse?

They compare it with the sexual abuse situation. I see the comparison. But churches were forced by the Law to deal with that. I'm not convinced that they would have otherwise. The issue was abuse by clergy or occurring in churches, so the churches had clear responsibility. Although pastors can be abusers, the problem identified in the article is primarily with churches giving bad counsel to members. Legal responsibility there is less clear, so it's not surprising that progress has been slower than in the sexual abuse scandals.

There's reason to be shy of charging pastors for bad sermons or bad advice in counseling. The simplest approach would probably be to create a legal duty to report abuse, as there as in my US states for abuse of children. Most, but not all, US states recognize privileged communications. But that would be if an abuser confessed. I don't see how it could cover reports from the victim or observations that someone seems to have been abused.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I wear a veil full-time. I seek to obey and submit to my husband, even when he's unkind. I know that God is not going to call me to something like pastorship. I know that there is a hierarchy between men and women, in Christian public and domestic life. I know that should I divorce my husband, anyone I wind up with after him is going to be a case of me committing adultery.

A woman truly, literally obeying the New Testament as God's Word and not a text meant in part "for that time" looks almost Amish, in some senses. Or something like a very conservative form of Orthodox Judaism, culturally. For everything my ego does not get, the way I see it is, I am being conformed to the image of Christ, Crucified, in relation to the Father.

It is terrible news for my female ego, pride, will, hopes, and ambitions in life. It is, in contrast, awesome news for my final Salvation.

 

[Paidiske]

The question about "what fraction of churches" is unknowable, hedrick.

My observation - based entirely on my personal experiences and no empirical study - is that on the whole, even good men who abhor violence and abuse and believe in the equality of women, are extraordinarily poorly equipped to respond to these issues. And most women, too, actually.

I would put myself in the category of "aware but not well qualified to deal with these issues." If I had such a situation in my congregation, there is no way I'd be trying to deal with it in-house but refer to external specialists. I think that's one step better than not realising that I'm not qualified, but only just marginally.

We're not trained for this kind of work. And so we fall back on what we are trained for - pastoral advice in relatively normal, healthy circumstances - and either fail to recognise, miss the significance of, or have no idea how to usefully intervene in, situations which are worlds away from that. Short of requiring all our clergy to be qualified domestic violence counsellors, I'm not sure how we fix that.

I have mixed feelings about mandatory reporting, especially when we're talking about adults. We know that the most dangerous time for a woman being abused is when she leaves; bringing that on precipitously, before she's had time to make an exit plan or be ready within herself, might actually be harmful to her, and certainly not the most helpful approach. I'd like to think, though, that we could do more to support women through the process of protecting themselves, discovering their own voice again, etc. I honestly don't know all the answers.

Gracia Singh, welcome! This thread is in the Egalitarian Christians forum. While you are welcome here, of course, and I would never seek to encourage you to live your Christian life against your conscience, you might wish to review the SOP to see the convictions which have shaped this area (and what may and may not be posted here).

 

[Dave-W]

This is a tough read, but a really helpful look at dynamics of domestic violence as it relates to Christian faith.

Yeah - definitely a hard read.

I found this statement rather interesting:

But American research provides one important insight: men who attend church less often are most likely to abuse their wives. (Regular church attenders are less likely to commit acts of intimate partner violence.)

Those who are often on the periphery, in other words, who sometimes float between parishes, or sit in the back pews. For these men, the rate of abuse committed is alarmingly high.

My dad was (before my birth) a pastor in the Wesleyan Methodist denom. (interestingly the first English speaking denom to ordain women to the pastorate) and was very violent with both my mom and myself. After one really bad incident, mom took my baby sister and I, and left. That was 1962.

In the 1990s, I was visiting dad and on Sunday we went to the church he supposedly attended: a Church of the Nazarene. I introduced myself and dad chided me to not do that, no one there was supposed to know his last name. (and he supposedly been in attendance there for over a decade) They did give us a visitors' pack which told me he was not there very often.

Back when I was a kid and they were together, dad seldom attended church with us. That certainly is in keeping with the statement.

But church counsellors and survivors of family violence report that many abusive men, like Sally's husband, rely on twisted — or literalist — interpretation of Bible verses to excuse their abuse.

Baker, whose 2010 book on counselling abused Christian women sprang from years of doctoral research, writes: "biblical principles and scriptures may be used by the perpetrator as a point of authority to condone his actions, or perhaps to 'prove' to the victim that she is not fulfilling her marital obligations."

My dad could quote scripture from memory better than anyone I knew (until I met Dr Derek Prince) and would use scripture to "prove" that women were inferior, and to be the slaves of all men. Part of my drive to learn scripture was to counteract that. Unfortunately, dad and I never had that conversation. By the time I was ready to tackle it, his mental faculties had been severely diminished from a couple of strokes and a serious auto accident.

 

[Dave-W]

It is terrible news for my female ego, pride, will, hopes, and ambitions in life. It is, in contrast, awesome news for my final Salvation.

I would respectfully disagree.

Your "final salvation" is ENTIRELY on the work of our Lord, thru His death and Resurrection. It has nothing to do with how well you submit or what clothes you wear.

 

[hedrick]

This is a tough read, but a really helpful look at dynamics of domestic violence as it relates to Christian faith. I thought others here might appreciate it, too:

'Submit to your husbands': Women told to endure domestic violence in the name of God

One other question: are you aware of anywhere outside the Pastorals where wives are told to submit to their husbands? I checked my Bible search and didn't see it.

 

[Paidiske]

There are similar themes in Ephesians, Colossians and 1 Peter. (NRSV translates it as "be subject" or "accept the authority" which might be why it didn't come up in your search).

 

[Zoii]

I fear violence against women by christian men is enabled notbonly through the often recited verses re the submission of women, but by the act of forgiveness and absolution of sin that wipes the slate clean despite the repeated acts of violence.

 

[Paidiske]

I was talking about this recently in the parish, Zoii, and saying that we have historically been really bad at coupling forgiveness with ongoing accountability. There are things now that I would be very reluctant to pronounce a quick absolution for, without commitment to some system of ongoing accountability, and DV would be one of them.

 

[Zoii]

Violence Against Women and the Role of Religion

 

[Dave-W]

I was talking about this recently in the parish, Zoii, and saying that we have historically been really bad at coupling forgiveness with ongoing accountability.

It is many people's understanding of "forgiveness" that says ongoing accountability is tantamount to not forgiving. "Forgive and Forget" we hear.

IMO that is a distortion of the actual biblical teaching.

 

[Dave-W]

Violence Against Women and the Role of Religion

Interesting and informative article, Zoii. Thanks for posting.

 

[Zoii]

The ABCs story wasnt new news... its been reported for a decade.Its just it wasnt acted on.
Domestic Violence within the Church: The Ugly Truth

 

[Zoii]

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[Runswithdogs]

One thing iv always be glad of is that my parents basicly taught me to "Forgive but make sure they dont do it again* (ie just because I choose to forgive someone dosent mean I alow them the power or oppertunity to repeat the action. ) They never taught me that I was somehow responsible for another persons actions, & I was alowed/encouraged to take steps to protect myself. (Mental & physical)
Shame most of my friends growing up wernt taught the same, some of them got really screwed up as they never learned to set bounderys because aperently Forgive meant "act like it never happened" & then they dident understand why they kept getting hurt the same way/buy the same people over & over again

 

[Dave-W]

...

Zoii - that is HORRIBLE. I am so sorry that happened to you.

 

[Zoii]

Zoii - that is HORRIBLE. I am so sorry that happened to you. That "pastor" does not deserve that title. Part of the job description is to protect the congregants from wolves and thieves; and he turned the blame on you - the prey.

.

 

[Dave-W]

I was angry...just crying angry

Of course you were.

But by saying you need to repent of YOUR Sins, he was blaming you. And that was as wrong as the guy who actually did the deed.

 

[Paidiske]

Agreed. Abuse is never the fault of the person being abused.

Never. Never. Never.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

A public lecture organised by the Centre for Public Christianity. Thought that others might appreciate it also:

Is Christianity Bad News for Women?

If Christianity was bad news for women then there would have only been *male* disciples.
If christianity was bad news for women then they all would have been destroyed after Jesus birth.
Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterwards that I will pour out of my spirit upon *all* flesh and your sons and your *daughters* shall prophesy (proclaim\preach) your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.
29 : And also upon the servants and the *handmaids* in those days will *I* pour out *my* spirit.
So why promise an outpouring of His Holy Spirit to women if Christianity is bad news for them? I think people make their mistakes when they don't fully consider the awesome power of God that can work in *any* person's life regardless of their gender.