When is lying not sinful?

[Dan61861]

So God was in error when He said that the Law is holy?

Can't be both, depending on your situation.

I would say it is a heart matter. If you get angry with another, you have committed murder in your heart. If you covet another, you have committed adultery in your heart. If you are deceitful, you have lied in your heart. The Lord looks upon our hearts, what is the intent of our hearts. God’s desire is for us to love one another to be merciful to one another. This is what makes the Law Holy. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. This is why all the Law rests on just two commandments. 1 John 3:11 “For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.” John, reiterates this 9 times in his letter.

• 1 John 4:7 “Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.”
• 1 John 3:14 “We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.”
• 1 John 3:9 “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

So, is God's Law Holy...of course it is, but the letter of the Law is incomplete without Love, mercy and compassion.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[lastofall]

Never: in the case of Abraham is of none effect on your question, for Abraham was not looking for a way to get away with the sin of bearing false witness (lying), whereas you asking it is of itself sin.

 

[Sabertooth]

You are giving that commandment greater breadth than what is supported in the rest of the Bible.

Another example of the (related) homicide paradox:

Jesus said (in Matthew 26:52),

"Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to [Peter], “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

Does that mean that Jesus wants no one to draw their sword under any circumstances? What about police officers? What about Christian police officers...?

Paul wrote of them (in Romans 13:4),

"For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason..."

You might say that they have to use evil tactics in a fallen world, but Paul finishes the verse with,

"They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

The same God that told Peter to sheathe his sword commissioned others to keep theirs at the ready. (They still run the risk of "dying by the sword," but it certainly isn't to be taken as a curse in their case.)

That is what I mean about interpreting a commandment too broadly.

 

[RDKirk]

I agree that graded absolutism is a valid position, but it can only validate the three offenses that I named earlier, namely:

• Assault/homicide/suicide (defending others/self-sacrifice),
• Theft/sabotage (defunding a bona fide enemy), and
• Lying/deception (misdirecting a bona fide enemy)

I can think of no scenario that could ever validate sexual sin or blasphemy, for example.

I would say the Mosaic Law permission of polygamy would be an example.

In Matthew 19, Jesus states what I would call a Royal Law (or RC Sprouls would call "God's Dispositional Will") when He clearly identifies one man cleaving to one woman as the righteous action.

Yet, the Mosaic Law provides for polygamy. However, if we look at God's explicit actions regarding polygamy prior to the law--specifically the Tamar situation--we see that His permission of polygamy is for the support of widows who would be destitute in their old age if they don't have sons to look after them. The reason for this would be the same as His reason for permitting divorce (which is also against His Dispositional Will): "....because your hearts were hard."

 

[Sabertooth]

I would say the Mosaic Law permission of polygamy would be an example.

Polygamy is still different than serial promiscuity (and other sexual sins). In the New Testament, it didn't even conflict with conversion, it just disqualified one from becoming an elder or a deacon.

Restated, if a man had multiple wives before he was saved, he may retain them after being saved. He is, however, expected to forsake/repent from other sexual sins like promiscuity, adultery, incest, rape, etc.

 

[Dave-W]

I have always found this passage intriguing:

1 Kin 22.20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’

 

[Dave-W]

I would say the Mosaic Law permission of polygamy would be an example.

In certain circumstances - COMMANDED.

 

[Beaker]

Is there ever a time that being dishonest is actually ok to God?

I ask because a few times in scripture we see very godly men being deceitful and it not being recorded as wrong. In fact a couple times God seems to bless them in spite of it.

Abraham when he went before Pharoah and Abimelek. Isaac before Abimelek. Jacob with his brother Esau, several times. Joseph when he acted as if he didn't know his brothers, gave them back their silver and said he hadn't, then set up Benjamin with the Silver Cup. David acting mentally ill in front of Achish

What about making silly noises then blaming them on a friend or family member?

Or for a more serious matter, hiding someone to save their life? Or lying so you don't hurt someone's feelings?

So is there ever a time that being dishonest is ok?

IOW, when is a lie not sin?

Apparently it IS okay at times. Read Joshua 2 where Rahab hid the spies then told the soldiers looking for them to kill them, that they had left the previous night, while all the while being hidden on her rooftop.

 

[RDKirk]

In certain circumstances - COMMANDED.

I think I've already noted this in this thread, but when God explicitly commanded a second marriage, it was when a woman had been widowed without children. It was a Bronze Age system of social security.

 

[Dave-W]

I think I've already noted this in this thread, but when God explicitly commanded a second marriage, it was when a woman had been widowed without children. It was a Bronze Age system of social security.

Correct. Her brother in law was commanded to marry her and raise up children to the deceased. That was regardless if he was already married or not.

 

[Dan61861]

In certain circumstances - COMMANDED.

I tried explainin that to my wife. She said, you may not be under the Law but you are under my law. Your parents brought you into this world, I'm your wife...I can take you out.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I would say it is a heart matter. If you get angry with another, you have committed murder in your heart. If you covet another, you have committed adultery in your heart. If you are deceitful, you have lied in your heart. The Lord looks upon our hearts, what is the intent of our hearts. God’s desire is for us to love one another to be merciful to one another. This is what makes the Law Holy. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. This is why all the Law rests on just two commandments. 1 John 3:11 “For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.” John, reiterates this 9 times in his letter.

• 1 John 4:7 “Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.”
• 1 John 3:14 “We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.”
• 1 John 3:9 “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

So, is God's Law Holy...of course it is, but the letter of the Law is incomplete without Love, mercy and compassion.

In Christ
Daniel

Wasn't your premise that there are times when lying is not sinful?

So how do you support the Law being holy, ie one of the 10 Commandments do not bear false witness, yet say lying can be ok. When is that and how is that Biblical

 

[RDKirk]

Wasn't your premise that there are times when lying is not sinful?

So how do you support the Law being holy, ie one of the 10 Commandments do not bear false witness, yet say lying can be ok. When is that and how is that Biblical

If you want to be strict about the wording:

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

That--taken alone--would not prohibit false witness for your neighbor (although there is another element of the Mosaic law--which is not one of the Ten Commandments--that does cover perjury in favor of a defendant), and it would not prohibit lying in general.

You have to use a comprehensive view of scripture in order to prohibit lying in general...

...except that same comprehensive view will also present circumstances in which God has accepted lies that protect His people or promote His will.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

It would not justify Abraham lying just to avoid potential conflict with Egyptians attracted to Sarah.

In Jewish tradition (not scripture, and they did often skew things to make the patriarchs look better) Abraham had a dream from God where he saw a tree about to be cut down, and a good tree beside it. In the dream, the bad tree was spared from being cut down for the sake of the good tree. He told Sarah that the prophetic interpretation was that God had revealed he should say they were siblings (which itself was true, they were half-siblings) so that his life would be spared.

While that account may or may not be true, it is interesting to note how different Jewish tradition (Abraham's life being spared by God giving a dream) differs from the general reaction among Christians (Abraham was just lying to protect himself.)

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Wasn't your premise that there are times when lying is not sinful?

So how do you support the Law being holy, ie one of the 10 Commandments do not bear false witness, yet say lying can be ok. When is that and how is that Biblical

The law says 'Though shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.' False witness is specifically saying an untruth to get your neighbor in trouble with the court, such as when Jesus was falsely accused of being a blasphemer.

False Witness is only one category of lie. The Biblical idea (and Jewish idea) of lying were somewhat different from the broader modern definition. And even our modern definition of lying tends to exclude jokes, games that require bluffing, or other forms of socially consensual deception for the sake of fun.

I went into this in detail in my main post, #247 in this thread, where I list many of the forms of lies which are condemned in scripture as well as many cases where deception is used in scripture in a seemingly positive light.

 

[Sabertooth]

Mispost

 

[brinny]

The law says 'Though shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.' False witness is specifically saying an untruth to get your neighbor in trouble with the court, such as when Jesus was falsely accused of being a blasphemer.

False Witness is only one category of lie. The Biblical idea (and Jewish idea) of lying were somewhat different from the broader modern definition. And even our modern definition of lying tends to exclude jokes, games that require bluffing, or other forms of socially consensual deception for the sake of fun.

I went into this in detail in my main post, #247 in this thread, where I list many of the forms of lies which are condemned in scripture as well as many cases where deception is used in scripture in a seemingly positive light.

I agree.

 

[YHWH_will_uplift]

Is there ever a time that being dishonest is actually ok to God?

I ask because a few times in scripture we see very godly men being deceitful and it not being recorded as wrong. In fact a couple times God seems to bless them in spite of it.

Abraham when he went before Pharoah and Abimelek. Isaac before Abimelek. Jacob with his brother Esau, several times. Joseph when he acted as if he didn't know his brothers, gave them back their silver and said he hadn't, then set up Benjamin with the Silver Cup. David acting mentally ill in front of Achish

What about making silly noises then blaming them on a friend or family member?

Or for a more serious matter, hiding someone to save their life? Or lying so you don't hurt someone's feelings?

So is there ever a time that being dishonest is ok?

IOW, when is a lie not sin?

You bring up some valid questions and cite very common examples of men and women in the Bible using lies and dishonesty to save themselves and others. It is important to remember to know the Law and why and how God uses it to carry out His judgments upon us.

We should remember the first judgment of God against deception with the intent of lying when the serpent deceived Eve: God made it clear from the beginning that He does not justify liars. And we see this same example with Satan--formerly known as Lucifer--who was cast out of heaven for believing that he could be God and usurp His Throne: God cast him and his host out of heaven for believing and proclaiming such a lie: for how could that which was created ever be the Creator?

In the case of Abraham with Pharaoh we see that Abraham's fear of what could happen caused him to forget that God would bless those who blessed him and curse those who cursed him: this caused Abraham to come up with a scheme to save himself but, his scheme nearly cost him in the end. Had not God intervened Pharaoh would have married and lain with Sarah, thus forefeiting His promise to Abraham of the promised seed to bless all nations would come through him. In the case of Abraham and Abimelech God makes a statement made nowhere else in the Bible:

"And God said into him in a dream, 'Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against Me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.'"
-Genesis 20:6

We see that God knows when a man is about to cross the line and sin. And in the case of Pharaoh and Abimelech God exposed the lie of Abraham, and reproved both he and Sarah for not coming out with the fact that they were no longer half-siblings but, husband and wife. And we see that Abraham made wrong judgments about the leaders of Egypt and Phillistia: for if Abraham would've been honest from the start then Pharaoh and Abimelech would have clearly respected Abraham and Sarah being married, not to mention God would have protected them.

As for Isaac and Abimelech: he followed the same error as Abraham: saying that he and Rebekah were siblings, except, he and Rebekah were never siblings to begin with. And again we see that Isaac made the same false judgments about Abimelech as Abraham his father had done. And we see that Abimelech respected their marriage and protected them.

This pattern of behavior was nothing new as Laban was as deceitful as Rebekah. Laban accepted the servant of Abraham not because he was being a gracious host: but, because he saw the gold Rebekah received from Abraham's servant. Rebekah too tricked her own husband by finding a way to take the blessing from Esau and pass it on to Jacob. Jacob was not innocent either as he went along with the lie: and all because they felt that they had to plot a scheme in order to receive God's promises instead of simply waiting on God to fulfill His promise.

It should be noted that these men and women were not blessed for lying, for Satan was cursed for his lies, and the Serpent was cursed for his lies, and those who believed there lies were cursed as well. Yet why were Abraham and his descendants blessed? It is because God was keeping His promise to Abraham:

"Now the YHWH had said unto Abram, 'Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'"
-Genesis 12:1-3

Here we have three blessings bestowed upon Abraham and his descendants:

1) Blessings from God Himself.
2) Blessings from God through others' blessings.
3) Blessings from God through Abraham.

As for Joseph the Bible never states that he acted as if he didn't know his brothers, on the contrary it makes it clear that he did know his brothers when they came to Egypt:

"And Jospeh knew his brethren, but they knew him not. And Jospeh remembered the dreams which he dreamed of them, and said unto them, 'Ye are spies; to see the nakedness of the land ye are come.'"
-Genesis 42:8-9

And concerning the money and the silver cup of Joseph it is written:

"And he commanded the steward of his house, saying, 'Fill the men's sacks with food, as much as they can carry, and put every man's money in his sack's mouth. And put my cup, the silver cup, in the sack's mouth of the youngest, and his corn money.' And he did according to the word that Joseph had spoken."
-Genesis 44:1-2

Joseph never denied not placing the money or the silver cup in the sack's of his brothers instead he says:

"And Joseph said unto them, 'What deed is this that ye have done? Know ye not that such a man as I can certainly divine?' And Judah said, 'What shall we say unto my lord? What shall we speak? Or how shall we clear ourselves? God hath found out the iniquity of thy servants: behold we are, my lord's servants, both we, and he also with whom the cup is found.' And he said, 'God forbid that I should do so: but the man in whose hand the cup is found, he shall be my servant; and as for you, get you up in peace unto your father.'"
-Genesis 44:15-17

Joseph denied nothing nor lied about anything, instead he used deception to lead his brothers into thinking that he did not know them and, that he knew all about them because he was using his cup to divine: Joseph used his knowledge and the ignorance of his brothers against them in order to test their hearts and see if they had changed their ways.

And concerning David he did not lie to king Achish: he simply used appearances to deceive him.

As for the silly noises and blaming them on someone else: jokes are meant to be jokes but, the Bible does draw a fine line:

"As a mad man who casteth firebrands, arrows, and death, so is the man that deceiveth his neighbor, and saith, 'Am I not in sport?'"
-Proverbs 26:18-19

The man who jokes with the intent to deceive his neighbor is defined as a mad man according to king Solomon: for trying to pass off a harmful act as a joke is clearly a lie.

And concerning hiding someone in order to save their lives, take the example of Rahab when she hid the two spies. She clearly lied to the messengers of the King of Jericho yet, she and her family were spared and blessed: not because of her lie but, because of her simple act of protecting the men of God and, showing her heartfelt submission to God: therefore despite her being a prostitute and, lying to government officials: God accepted her because she accepted him in faith believing that if she helped the men of Israel then her and her house would be saved, and, they were saved (see Joshua 2:1-24 cf. 6:1-27).

And remember that the law blesses those who obey it, but curses those who disobey it (see Leviticus 26:1-46 cf. Deuteronomy 28:1-30:20), and Moses connected life with blessings, but death he connected with curses: and stated that God is the source of both in his song which he recited to the people and Joshua before his death (Deuteronomy 30:19-20 cf. 32:20-27, 34-35, 37-44).

 

[likeminded66]

Or for a more serious matter, hiding someone to save their life? Or lying so you don't hurt someone's feelings?

Very interesting topic. The Spirit has shown me this in scripture too, that there are times when God approves when a person does a good deed and 'lies' to save life.

For instance, in Exodus ch. 1 where the two midwives lied about why they weren't killing the Hebrew boys being born. Also Rahab in Joshua ch. 2 when she lied about taking in the two spies and she was then included in the roster of the faithful in Hebrews 11.

This makes me think further that everything has a good and a bad. Lying was probably never meant to be in existence, but since sin has entered into the world, it can be 'sanctified' for lack of a better word. Just like we were never probably meant to eat the animals but God cleansed them so we now can eat them with thanksgiving.

Hopefully this makes sense and you see where I'm going with these examples.

 

[LoricaLady]

Midwives lied to Pharaoh to save Israelite babies and the Almighty rewarded them.