MORE RAPTURE QUESTIONS

[Biblewriter]

This thread is so full of off topic material. Kinda hard to follow. Did anyone give a good reason why the "last trumpet" isnt really the "last trumpet"?

I pointed out that the scriptures speak of trumpets that will be blown at a time that is clearly after the rapture, regardless of which view on the timing of the rapture turns out to be correct. Because these trumpets will be blown AFTER, not BEFORE, the Lord returns in power and glory to judge the world. So the words "the last trump" cannot mean the last trumpet that will ever be blown. Instead, they clearly mean the last trumpet that will be blown at that time.

 

[WailingWall]

Because these trumpets will be blown AFTER, not BEFORE, the Lord returns in power and glory to judge the world. So the words "the last trump" cannot mean the last trumpet that will ever be blown.

So your saying you know a trumpet will be blown when Christ returns. But you dont tell me why that trumpet could not be the last trumpet blown. Could it be if the Last Trumpet was really the Last Trumpet, the rapture theory could not be true? Scripture please. Will good ole Job be in your rapture?

 

[WailingWall]

Matthew 24:30-31 (KJV)
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we see the return of Jesus. The Great trumpet blown {last one}. And His people gathered {in the twinkling of an eye}

 

[WailingWall]

Isaiah 27:12-13 (KJV)
12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

I believe we discussed Isaiahs "in that day". Great Trumpet blown and gathered to the 1000yr period of rest in Jerusalem. We are not flitting of to heaven

 

[jerry kelso]

Anyways... my next question is will Job be in the rapture of 1Cor.15?

wailingwall,

1. All Old and New Testament saints will be in the rapture of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

2. The 24 elders represent Old and New Testament saints 12 for the Old and 12 for the New Revelation 4:4,10; 5:5,8,11,14.

3. 1 Corinthians 15:23; But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ at his coming 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.
This couldn't be the Second Coming for the Second Coming is the Day of the Lord when the Old and New Testament saints and all the tribulation saints are already in Heaven beforehand so they can come out of Heaven to do war at the battle of Armageddon.

4. Revelation 15:1-2 is the last company in the tribulation to go to Heaven who sing the Song of Moses and the Lamb and before the wrath of God which is reserved for the Beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:1-2. They were martyred for not taking the mark of the beast etc. and part of the blessed dead Revelation 14:13.
Revelation 20:4-6 proves this and shows they are the last group in the First Resurrection of believers.

5. All Old Testament saints were perfected together with New Testament saints at Calvary Hebrews 11:40.
So all are in Christ such as the dead in Christ which are all Old Testament saints and New Testament saints gone before the rapture takes place and they will come with Christ from Heavenand those saints still alive at that time will come from earth to be caught up together with the dead in Christ and the Lord.
The tribulation saints such as the souls under the altar Revelation 6:9-11 under the 5th seal in the first half and those killed throughout the tribulation by the Antichrist Revelation 13:7; 14:13;15:1-2 are resurrected when they die and go to Heaven unless they are resurrected with the blessed dead of those that didn't take the mark of the beast etc.
The first set of martyrs in 5:9-11 want vindication on those who killed them and they have to wait for their fellow servants and brethren to be killed like they will be. Their brethren will be in the 2nd half of the tribulation in the beast kingdom and killed for not taking the mark.
Revelation 20:4 seems to only indicate the second half tribulation saints as actually being resurrected by themselves at the end of the tribulation Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6.
This seems to show that the first half martyrs will automatically be resurrected but will receive vindication when the 2nd half martyrs have been resurrected and then the vials of the Wrath of God is poured out on the earth dwellers who will be the beast kingdom worshippers and the Antichrist and False Prophet Revelation 16 which culminates in the battle of Armageddon and Christ takes over the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15.
Job will be in the rapture of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. Jerry kelso

 

[keras]

Job will be in the rapture of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. Jerry kelso

Which does not happen until the end of the Millennium. Proved by how immortality is only conferred to those whose name is in the Book of Life. Revelation 20:11-15 And only then is there to be no more Death.
Any notion of 'new bodies' or Immortality before then, is false teaching and isn't part of God's plan for His people.

 

[Biblewriter]

So your saying you know a trumpet will be blown when Christ returns. But you dont tell me why that trumpet could not be the last trumpet blown. Could it be if the Last Trumpet was really the Last Trumpet, the rapture theory could not be true? Scripture please. Will good ole Job be in your rapture?

That is not what I said. I pointed out that there are trumpets spoken of in prophecy which will unquestionably be blown AFTER the Lord comes, not WHEN He comes. Since the latest possible timing of the rapture is WHEN the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the world, then any trumpet blown AFTER he comes, will be blown AFTER the rapture, not at the time of the rapture. This is the proof that the words "at the last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 cannot mean at the last trumpet that will ever be blown. Instead, the meaning has to be 'at the last trumpet that will be blown at that time.'


Zec 9:12 Return to the stronghold, You prisoners of hope. Even today I declare That I will restore double to you. 13 For I have bent Judah, My bow, Fitted the bow with Ephraim, And raised up your sons, O Zion, Against your sons, O Greece, And made you like the sword of a mighty man." 14 Then the LORD will be seen over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning. The Lord GOD will blow the trumpet, And go with whirlwinds from the south. 15 The LORD of hosts will defend them; They shall devour and subdue with slingstones. They shall drink and roar as if with wine; They shall be filled with blood like basins, Like the corners of the altar. Zechariah 9:12-15


Here we see a battle which has unquestionably never taken place. It will be between the sons of Zion, that is, Jerusalem, and the sons of Greece. And the Lord God will blow the trumpet.

How do we know that this is AFTER the Lord has returned in power and glory to judge the world? Because Isaiah 66:15-20 clearly shows Israel will be brought back to the land AFTER, not BEFORE Armageddon. Then Ephraim and Judah will be reunited and go together to war, as is explicitly stated in Isaiah 11:13-14. the following wars are described in many scriptures, and the one above is one of these.

 

[WailingWall]

wailingwall,

1. All Old and New Testament saints will be in the rapture of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

Yes Jerry. Job will be part of the 1Cor.15 event. But that creates a problem for the Rapturist.

JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Job says after the heavens be no more, then shall his "change" come {in the twinkling of an eye}

2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Job says his "change" will come when the heavens be no more. Above scripture tells us the heavens be no more at the coming of the Day of the Lord. Which occurs {according to scripture} after the great tribulation. No room for a pretrib or midtrib rapture. Its just not there

 

[Biblewriter]

Yes Jerry. Job will be part of the 1Cor.15 event. But that creates a problem for the Rapturist.

JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Job says after the heavens be no more, then shall his "change" come {in the twinkling f an eye}

2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Job says his "change" will come when the heavens be no more. Above scripture tells us the heavens be no more at the coming of the Day of the Lord. Which occurs {according to scripture} after the great tribulation. No room for a pretrib or midtrib rapture. Its just not there

You are forgetting that. although this is a true and accurate account of what Job and his three friends said, we are explicitly told that much of what they said was not correct.

"Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" Job 38:1-2

 

[WailingWall]

You are forgetting that. although this is a true and accurate account of what Job and his three friends said, we are explicitly told that much of what they said was not correct.

"Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" Job 38:1-2

So whats Job 38 talking about?

Job 34:4-5 (KJV)
4 Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.
5 For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment.

Job was human as you or I. He made the claim that he was righteous. We now know we all are as filthy rags and the only one who will take away our judgement will be Jesus. That does not mean we can take all the scriptures out of Job and claim they are not true. We {including Job} look through a glass darkly. But as far as scripture goes.....

2 Timothy 3:15-16 (KJV)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[jerry kelso]

Which does not happen until the end of the Millennium. Proved by how immortality is only conferred to those whose name is in the Book of Life. Revelation 20:11-15 And only then is there to be no more Death.
Any notion of 'new bodies' or Immortality before then, is false teaching and isn't part of God's plan for His people.

Keras,

1. Your logic is not according to the context.

2. The saints with Christ will be ruling with a rod of Iron Psalm 2:12; Revelation 2:26-27.
This will be the 1000 year millennial reign on earth.
1 Corinthians 15:25; For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Revelation 20:7-13 shows the last rebellion on earth at the end of the 1000 year reign and then death will be done away with at the Great White Throne Judgement forever; verses 13-15.

3. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 proves your logic wrong.
Besides the last company to be in the First Resurrection are those who don't take the mark of the beast, etc. Revelation 15:1-2;20:4-6 and that happens before the 7 vials are even poured out on the Beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:1-2.

4. The pre-trib rapture was a mystery to the Old Testament saints 1Corinthians 15:51-51, but the second coming wasn't a mystery.
Hebrews 6:1-2 tells the NC Jews to not lay again the foundations of Old Testament doctrines such as baptism and resurrection of the dead.
John's day was never the same as the pre-trib rapture of the church.
It had to do with the Jews and the KoH Matthew 11:24. Jesus day was still the Old Testament era and every Jew knew about the last day but not the pre-trib rapture of the church. They didn't even know what at church was after Calvary until the mystery of the church was revealed 8-10 years later Acts 10 and with Paul's ministry in Ephesians 2:14-15; 3:3-6. So I am sorry but you are wrong. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Yes Jerry. Job will be part of the 1Cor.15 event. But that creates a problem for the Rapturist.

JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Job says after the heavens be no more, then shall his "change" come {in the twinkling of an eye}

2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Job says his "change" will come when the heavens be no more. Above scripture tells us the heavens be no more at the coming of the Day of the Lord. Which occurs {according to scripture} after the great tribulation. No room for a pretrib or midtrib rapture. Its just not there

wailing wall,

1. It is not in your lack of knowledge of the scriptures.

2. The Old Testament about the Day of the Lord is the Day of Vengeance to save Israel from their plight of the nations Isaiah 34:8.
Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1 but not verse 2 because he knew the Jews would reject his message and not repent and also Calvary and the church was predestined to happen because of it.

3. The Heavens and the earth are for forever.
The restoration of the land will be by fire and fire doesn't annihilate it purifies. This will be the case at the Day of Christ he Lord after the tribulation of Jacob's trouble which Peter refers to and the Day of God which is a 1000 years later when the New Heaven and the New Earth are created.
The annihilation theory is false in both cases.
The millennial KoH reign is to rid sin and rebellion once and for all 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
After the 1000 years is over Christ will give the Kingdom back to the Father so God will be all in all and there will be the New Heaven and the New Earth.

4. Again Job only knew about the Say of the Lord and the last day resurrection like Martha.
They didn't know the mystery of the rapture and resurrection of the NC Church Paul writes about in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

5. Hebrews 6:1-2 tells the NC Jews not to lay down the Old Testament doctrines such as baptism and yes resurrection of the dead.
You are trying to mix them in and you do not understand the whole context of the First Eesuurrection from Christ the Firstfruits to the tribulation saints who don't take the mark. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

The Heavens and the earth are for forever.
The restoration of the land will be by fire and fire doesn't annihilate it purifies.

Isa 65:17　 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

　
2Pe 3:10　 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.　
2Pe 3:11　 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,　
2Pe 3:12　 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?　


Put a pair of shoes in acid until they are dissolved, and then see how much is left.

.




.

 

[WailingWall]

4. The pre-trib rapture was a mystery to the Old Testament saints

I agree. They knew nothing of a pretrib rapture

AMOS 3 [7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

And youll find nothing about a pretrib rapture in the books of the prophets

 

[WailingWall]

4. The pre-trib rapture was a mystery to the Old Testament saints

JEREMIAH 23 [1] WOE BE UNTO THE PASTORS THAT DESTROY AND SCATTER THE SHEEP of my pasture! saith the Lord. [2] Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord. [3] And I WILL GATHER THE REMNANT OF MY FLOCK OUT OF ALL COUNTRIES whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

So how do you believe the people of God will be gathered? In the twinkling of an eye or public transit?

As i look back at what i wrote above i realize im sounding a little sarcastic. Sorry bout that. But i think its a fair question.

 

[Biblewriter]

So whats Job 38 talking about?

Job 34:4-5 (KJV)
4 Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.
5 For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment.

Job was human as you or I. He made the claim that he was righteous. We now know we all are as filthy rags and the only one who will take away our judgement will be Jesus. That does not mean we can take all the scriptures out of Job and claim they are not true. We {including Job} look through a glass darkly. But as far as scripture goes.....

2 Timothy 3:15-16 (KJV)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

This is true. But in the case of Job, we have explicitly stated scripture that clearly teaches that not everything you read in that book is true. There is no escaping this undeniable fact.

 

[Bobgf]

JEREMIAH 23 [1]

So how do you believe the people of God will be gathered? In the twinkling of an eye or public transit?

Isaiah 66:20
They shall bring all your kindred from all the nations as an offering to the Lord, on horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and on mules, and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, just as the Israelites bring a grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord.

 

[Biblewriter]

So how do you believe the people of God will be gathered? In the twinkling of an eye or public transit?

Isaiah 66:20
They shall bring all your kindred from all the nations as an offering to the Lord, on horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and on mules, and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, just as the Israelites bring a grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord.

Compare the scripture quoted in this answer with:

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

and

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

The stark difference between these scriptures proves, beyond the possibility of rational debate, that the last two scriptures are not speaking of the same event as the first one.

This is simply one more very powerful example of the fact that, although the scriptures never state that the Lord is coming back more than a single time. they indeed show that fact, and show it very clearly.

 

[keras]

Keras,

1. Your logic is not according to the context.

2. The saints with Christ will be ruling with a rod of Iron Psalm 2:12; Revelation 2:26-27.
This will be the 1000 year millennial reign on earth.
1 Corinthians 15:25; For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Revelation 20:7-13 shows the last rebellion on earth at the end of the 1000 year reign and then death will be done away with at the Great White Throne Judgement forever; verses 13-15.

3. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 proves your logic wrong.
Besides the last company to be in the First Resurrection are those who don't take the mark of the beast, etc. Revelation 15:1-2;20:4-6 and that happens before the 7 vials are even poured out on the Beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:1-2.

4. The pre-trib rapture was a mystery to the Old Testament saints 1Corinthians 15:51-51, but the second coming wasn't a mystery.
Hebrews 6:1-2 tells the NC Jews to not lay again the foundations of Old Testament doctrines such as baptism and resurrection of the dead.
John's day was never the same as the pre-trib rapture of the church.
It had to do with the Jews and the KoH Matthew 11:24. Jesus day was still the Old Testament era and every Jew knew about the last day but not the pre-trib rapture of the church. They didn't even know what at church was after Calvary until the mystery of the church was revealed 8-10 years later Acts 10 and with Paul's ministry in Ephesians 2:14-15; 3:3-6. So I am sorry but you are wrong. Jerry kelso

I am sad that you have been deceived by the 'rapture to heaven' false teaching, like so many, often because that is the only end times event they have been taught.
But the Bible never explicitly states that God will do such a thing at all. It is only by inference and assumption that a rapture to heaven for the Church is construed.
1/ My logic is justified; you fail to refute the truth that 1 Corinthians 15, is a prophecy about what happens at the Great White Throne.
2/ The saints who will rule with Christ, are just the ones killed for their faith during the Great Tribulation as Revelation 20:4 makes clear.
3/ This resurrection happens when Jesus Returns.
4/ The pre-trib rapture was and is a mystery in all the Bible, because God never plans that for His people. What He does want, is a people who bear the proper fruit; that is: every Christian, to live in the holy Land, being the people He always wanted there; His witnesses and the Light to the nations. THIS WILL HAPPEN! Great will be the day!

 

[keras]

The stark difference between these scriptures proves, beyond the possibility of rational debate, that the last two scriptures are not speaking of the same event as the first one.

The 3 prophesies you quote BW, are three separate events;
1/ Isaiah 66:18b-21 is the gathering of every faithful Christian into all of the holy Land, soon after the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath has cleansed it. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, +

2/ 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 describes the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. Those Christians who remain alive then, will be transported to where Jesus is; in Jerusalem.

3/ 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 prophesies the fulfilment of our promise to obtain Eternal life. This only happens when the Book of Life is opened at the GWT Judgement. AFTER the Millennium.