Regarding adultery

[ViaCrucis]

So when Jesus said that divorce was permitted for marital infidelity, he wasn't including bigamy?

Jesus never says anything about polygamy.

If adultery, the seventh commandment, isn't definable then it can't be believed in as an assertion from God. To believe in someone and what they stand for, one has to know clearly what that is.

It's pretty easily definable and has been defined multiple times for you: adultery is being unfaithful to one's spouse.

If polygamy isn't the sin of adultery then what sin is it?

If polygamy is sinful then it is sinful for its own reason, not because it's adultery.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[janxharris]

Jesus never says anything about polygamy.


It's pretty easily definable and has been defined multiple times for you: adultery is being unfaithful to one's spouse.


If polygamy is sinful then it is sinful for its own reason, not because it's adultery.

-CryptoLutheran

Your definition of adultery as being unfaithful to one's spouse (where polygamy isn't necessarily adultery) is untenable according Paul:

Romans 7:2-3
For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

That the woman isn't an adulteress if she marries another man only holds if her husband is no longer alive - otherwise she is an adulteress and therefore Paul is explicitly making polygamy adultery.

Jesus didn't have to explicitly use the term 'polygamy' to proscribe it (which he does in Matthew 19:9 and Matthew 5:28).

 

[ViaCrucis]

Your definition of adultery as being unfaithful to one's spouse (where polygamy isn't necessarily adultery) is untenable according Paul:

Romans 7:2-3
For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

That the woman isn't an adulteress if she marries another man only holds if her husband is no longer alive - otherwise she is an adulteress and therefore Paul is explicitly making polygamy adultery.

I must be missing the part where "Paul is explicitly making polygamy adultery". It is saying, however, that if a woman has sex with a man that isn't her husband then it is adultery.

Jesus didn't have to explicitly use the term 'polygamy' to proscribe it (which he does in Matthew 19:9 and Matthew 5:28).

Matthew 19:9 has nothing to do with polygamy, but with divorce.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[janxharris]

I must be missing the part where "Paul is explicitly making polygamy adultery". It is saying, however, that if a woman has sex with a man that isn't her husband then it is adultery.

The last part of verse 3 says, 'and is not an adulteress if she marries another man,' so, naturally, she is an adulteress otherwise - i.e. if her husband is still alive. After all, what would be point here if there was no obverse case? That he states such a case in the first part is telling and also shows that Paul isn't really distinguishing marriage from sexual intercourse; he equates the two in this context.

Matthew 19:9 has nothing to do with polygamy, but with divorce.

I'd say it's clear that the individual is considered by Jesus to still be married if they divorce for anything other than marital infidelity. So marrying again whilst still married (even though seemingly divorced) is, therefore, proscribed. Why else would it be considered adultery? It's not adultery because of divorce per se - that doesn't make sense.

 

[janxharris]

I must be missing the part where "Paul is explicitly making polygamy adultery". It is saying, however, that if a woman has sex with a man that isn't her husband then it is adultery.

What is sinful about marrying more than one wife? Your definition of adultery excludes such a case. You have already said polygamy isn't ideal. Please say why?

 

[ViaCrucis]

What is sinful about marrying more than one wife? Your definition of adultery excludes such a case. You have already said polygamy isn't ideal. Please say why?

Well, for one, I'd say that polygamy generally results in women being treated as little more than chattel, as possessions. There is far more equity in a monogamous relationship.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The last part of verse 3 says, 'and is not an adulteress if she marries another man,' so, naturally, she is an adulteress otherwise - i.e. if her husband is still alive. After all, what would be point here if there was no obverse case? That he states such a case in the first part is telling and also shows that Paul isn't really distinguishing marriage from sexual intercourse; he equates the two in this context.

If a woman has sex with another man while her husband is alive, then yes, she is being unfaithful to her husband and committing adultery. Hence the definition of adultery as being unfaithful to one's spouse.

I'd say it's clear that the individual is considered by Jesus to still be married if they divorce for anything other than marital infidelity. So marrying again whilst still married (even though seemingly divorced) is, therefore, proscribed. Why else would it be considered adultery? It's not adultery because of divorce per se - that doesn't make sense.

Which has nothing to do with polygamy, and everything to do with divorce and remarriage.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[janxharris]

Well, for one, I'd say that polygamy generally results in women being treated as little more than chattel, as possessions. There is far more equity in a monogamous relationship.

-CryptoLutheran

Are you suggesting, though, that a polygamous marriage could be sinless?

 

[janxharris]

If a woman has sex with another man while her husband is alive, then yes, she is being unfaithful to her husband and committing adultery. Hence the definition of adultery as being unfaithful to one's spouse.

And yet if the marriage comes before the sexual intercourse it's suddenly not adultery?

That seems to be the point you have been making regarding a man having multiple wives.

Which has nothing to do with polygamy, and everything to do with divorce and remarriage.
-CryptoLutheran

That didn't address the point I was making. It's only adultery if the union of the first marriage is still considered extant even though the man has divorced her. That makes it bigamy. You aren't giving a clear reason why Jesus is saying it's adultery.

 

[Ron Gurley]

For BELIEVERS ONLY, the sin named "adultery" is FORGIVABLE!...just like any other sin in both the OT and NT.

OT:

Exodus 20:14
“You shall not commit adultery.
adultery...Hebrew 5003...na'aph...
i.to commit adultery
a.usually of a man
•always with the wife of another
b.adultery (of women) (participle)
ii.idolatrous worship (figurative)

NT:.

Matthew 5:27-28; 5:32: 19:9...Jesus on "adultery"
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’;(OT Mosaic Law)
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.(soul?spirit?)...
but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery....
And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife,
except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

commits adultery...Greek 3429...moichaō...I.to have unlawful intercourse with another's wife, to commit adultery with

Seems clear to me!

 

[Ron Gurley]

FOR BELIEVERS ONLY: Try figuring out what the forgivable sin of "FORNICATION" is.!!

Matthew 15: 15-20 (NASB) ....Jesus on: The "sin nature"/Heart of Man
15 Peter said to Him, “Explain the parable to us.”
16 Jesus said,
“Are you still lacking in understanding also?
17 Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?
18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the "heart" (soul? spirit?), and those defile the man.
19 For out of the "heart" come: '
evil thoughts,
murders,
adulteries,
fornications,
thefts,
false witness,
slanders.
(AND THE LIKE!)
20 These are the things which defile the man;
but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”

fornications...GREEK 4202...porneia...
I.illicit sexual intercourse
A.adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. (all but legal marriage)
B.sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
C.sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12

 

[janxharris]

For BELIEVERS ONLY, the sin named "adultery" is FORGIVABLE!...just like any other sin in both the OT and NT.

OT:

Exodus 20:14
“You shall not commit adultery.
adultery...Hebrew 5003...na'aph...
i.to commit adultery
a.usually of a man
•always with the wife of another
b.adultery (of women) (participle)
ii.idolatrous worship (figurative)

NT:.

Matthew 5:27-28; 5:32: 19:9...Jesus on "adultery"
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’;(OT Mosaic Law)
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.(soul?spirit?)...
but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery....
And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife,
except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

commits adultery...Greek 3429...moichaō...I.to have unlawful intercourse with another's wife, to commit adultery with

Seems clear to me!

The punishment for adultery was stoning - and yet this was not enforced against David etc. Instead there are OT laws that permit polygamy - and yet Paul contradicts such permissiveness with Romans 7:1-3.

 

[Ron Gurley]

ADULTERIES and FORNCATIONS for BELIEVERS ONLY are both forgivable sins in the OT and the NT.

Abraham BELIEVED and was a saved believer. He went into TAMAR at the encouragement of Sarah...a sin. OT

The woman caught in sin (adultery?) was a saved believer...after she encountered Jesus the God Man. NT.

Luke 7:47-50 (NASB)
47 For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much;
but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”
48 Then He said to her,
“Your sins have been forgiven.”
49 Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves,
“Who is this man who even forgives sins?”
50 And He said to the woman,
“Your faith (in Me!) has saved you; go in peace.”

 

[Ron Gurley]

Bye the Bye, the NT fulfills/completes the OT..

The "economy" or God's methods of relating to Man changed from Old Testament times to New Testament
due to the historical appearance of Jesus of Nazareth,
The Divine Messiah, The Christ, the God-Man., Son of God, Son of Man, etc.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to FULFILL.

Mark 1:15..(Jesus) and saying,
“The time (prophecy) is FULFILLED,
and the "kingdom of God" (Jesus) is "at hand";(NOW!)
repent (turn toward God) AND believe in the "gospel".”
("gospell"= GOOD NEWS: The Divine Messiah has come down from heaven to save Mankind)

Luke 4:21..And He began to say to them (IN TEMPLE),
“Today this Scripture has been FULFILLED in your hearing.”
17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18-19
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

Luke 24:44...Post-resurrection Jesus to His closest followers...Now He said to them,
“These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be FULFILLED.”

 

[janxharris]

ADULTERIES and FORNCATIONS for BELIEVERS ONLY are both forgivable sins in the OT and the NT.

Abraham BELIEVED and was a saved believer. He went into TAMAR at the encouragement of Sarah...a sin. OT

The woman caught in sin (adultery?) was a saved believer...after she encountered Jesus the God Man. NT.

Luke 7:47-50 (NASB)
47 For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much;
but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”
48 Then He said to her,
“Your sins have been forgiven.”
49 Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves,
“Who is this man who even forgives sins?”
50 And He said to the woman,
“Your faith (in Me!) has saved you; go in peace.”

If your definition of adultery 'is always with the wife of another' then are you saying that polygamy isn't adultery?

Romans 7:1-3 says otherwise but also contradicts the OT laws allowing polygamy.

 

[janxharris]

That a definition of adultery is important is underlined by the fact that the rules for these forums prohibit its encouragement.

• Abortion, adultery, premarital sex, and marijuana use may be discussed, but encouraging participation in these activities is not allowed. Illegal activities may not be encouraged or promoted*.

 

[gadar perets]

Abraham BELIEVED and was a saved believer. He went into TAMAR at the encouragement of Sarah...a sin. OT

Not TAMAR, but HAGAR.

 

[gadar perets]

And yet if the marriage comes before the sexual intercourse it's suddenly not adultery?

Sex before marriage is fornication. Sex after marriage to your wife is lawful. Sex with another who is not your wife is adultery. Sex with a second wife after marriage is tolerated polygamy prior to the New Covenant. Under the NC, polygamy is unacceptable.

 

[janxharris]

Sex before marriage is fornication. Sex after marriage to your wife is lawful. Sex with another who is not your wife is adultery.

I agree.

Sex with a second wife after marriage is tolerated polygamy prior to the New Covenant. Under the NC, polygamy is unacceptable.

I don't agree. Paul is clear in Romans 7 that polygamy is adultery - and is so under the law of the OT.

Paul says (in v.3b) that:

"But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man."

She is not an adulteress if she marries another man in this case - that is, in the case where her husband dies; and we need only refer back to v.3a to know that she is an adulteress if she has sex in the other case - where her husband is still alive:

"So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress."

Paul makes no qualification here - the adultery is for sex with a man other than her husband.

 

[gadar perets]

I don't agree. Paul is clear in Romans 7 that polygamy is adultery - and is so under the law of the OT.

If polygamy was adultery under the law, then you are saying that YHWH 1) allowed such adulterers to live when they both should have been stoned to death 2)that YHWH regulated adultery by commanding adulterers to not diminish the first wife's support and by not favoring the second wife or her illegitimate children and 3) that YHWH gave David more wives causing him to commit adultery.

Paul says (in v.3b) that:

"But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man."

She is not an adulteress if she marries another man in this case - that is, in he case where her husband dies; and we need only refer back to v.3a to know that she is an adulteress if she has sex in the other case - where her husband is still alive:

"So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress."

Paul makes no qualification here - the adultery is for sex with a man other than her husband.

Paul is saying she is not an adulteress if her husband dies and she remarries. The "other case" is if she has sex with another man who is not her husband. You are reading polygamy into the text when 1) Paul does not mention polygamy 2) There are no known cases of a woman having two or more husbands at the same time and 3) YHWH never gave any regulations upon women. Women having multiple husbands simply wasn't done in Israel, so why would Paul even be thinking along those lines?