Regarding adultery

janxharris

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Would appreciate a definition of adultery if anyone would like to have a go. That this is important is highlighted by that it was a stonable offence:

Leviticus 20:10
“‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbour—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."

John 8:3-5
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”

To anyone interested - it is not my intention to disprove scripture (even though this might seem to be the case upon reading my posts); rather, I wish to examine and test to see if what is written is true.

Acts 17:11
 
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But that would permit polygamy which is explicitly outlawed in Romans 7:1-3

The original plan which God refers to as being good, was not polygamy:

Genesis 18:
And Adam said: “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.”
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. (Genesis 2:18–25)

Then we have Jesus' own testimony concerning that God wanted monogamy to be the norm:

Mark 10:1–12
‘God made them gmale and female.’ h‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife,1 ithe two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. jWhat therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”


The marital advice Paul provides mentions only to one wife not wives and quotes God's original monogamous intentions just as Jesus did..

Eph 5: “let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband”
.
He who loves his wife loves himself. We are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

So it appears that God demands monogamy and does not approve of polygamy.
 
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AlexDTX

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So it appears that God demands monogamy and does not approve of polygamy.
Agreed. And yet we see that Jacob marries Leah and Rachel and uses Bilhah and Zilpah as concubines. If Jacob obeyed the plan of God for monogamy and accepted Leah as his wife, the dysfunction may have been mitigated. But he loved Rachel who seemed to have little regard for God, and all kinds of strife occurred. At least the Lord blessed Leah so that she is in the lineage of the Messiah, not Rachel, through her son Judah. While Joseph came from Rachel, his descendants brought all kinds of strife causing division by the northern kingdom separating from Judah and changing the laws of Moses and moving the place of worship to Samaria. Leah may not have had the love of Jacob, but she most certainly had the love of God and is the ultimate winner.
 
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janxharris

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The original plan which God refers to as being good, was not polygamy:



Then we have Jesus' own testimony concerning that God wanted monogamy to be the norm:




The marital advice Paul provides mentions only to one wife not wives and quotes God's original monogamous intentions just as Jesus did..



So it appears that God demands monogamy and does not approve of polygamy.

Then why this:

1 Kings 15:5
For David had done what was right in the eyes of the Lord and had not failed to keep any of the Lord’s commands all the days of his life—except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.

?

David had many wives.
 
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janxharris

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Agreed. And yet we see that Jacob marries Leah and Rachel and uses Bilhah and Zilpah as concubines. If Jacob obeyed the plan of God for monogamy and accepted Leah as his wife, the dysfunction may have been mitigated. But he loved Rachel who seemed to have little regard for God, and all kinds of strife occurred. At least the Lord blessed Leah so that she is in the lineage of the Messiah, not Rachel, through her son Judah. While Joseph came from Rachel, his descendants brought all kinds of strife causing division by the northern kingdom separating from Judah and changing the laws of Moses and moving the place of worship to Samaria. Leah may not have had the love of Jacob, but she most certainly had the love of God and is the ultimate winner.

2 Samuel 12:7-8
Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.
 
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AlexDTX

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2 Samuel 12:7-8
Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.
Which shows the grace that God gave them, even under the law.

I am curious, Janxharris. Simple definitions of adultery have already been given - no married person should have sex with another person - yet you seem to reject the definitions. What are you looking for? Do you want some rationalization to permit you to commit adultery?
 
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janxharris

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Which shows the grace that God gave them, even under the law.

I am curious, Janxharris. Simple definitions of adultery have already been given - no married person should have sex with another person - yet you seem to reject the definitions. What are you looking for? Do you want some rationalization to permit you to commit adultery?

No, I am certainly not looking for an excuse to commit adultery - but I am rather baffled by such assertions as, for example, Romans 7:1-3 which seems to nail the definition - and yet King David does that very thing. He is even told he would have been given more (wives).

And King Solomon - he is never rebuked for marrying multiple wives (though he is condemned for marrying foreign wives).

Which shows the grace that God gave them, even under the law.

So can you explain 1 Kings 15:5? That David committed adultery every time he took his next wife isn't mentioned...only his causing of Uriah's death is considered a sin.
 
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janxharris

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Which shows the grace that God gave them, even under the law.

I am curious, Janxharris. Simple definitions of adultery have already been given - no married person should have sex with another person - yet you seem to reject the definitions. What are you looking for? Do you want some rationalization to permit you to commit adultery?

Apparently, the following is stonable:

2 Samuel 5:13
After he left Hebron, David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem, and more sons and daughters were born to him.

Not only does David take more than one wife, he even has concubines.
 
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AlexDTX

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No, I am certainly not looking for an excuse to commit adultery - but I am rather baffled by such assertions as, for example, Romans 7:1-3 which seems to nail the definition - and yet King David does that very thing. He is even told he would have been given more (wives).

And King Solomon - he is never rebuked for marrying multiple wives (though he is condemned for marrying foreign wives).

I am glad you are seeking to understand what God is doing, and has done. Grace is the essence of love and life. God gave Adam and Eve paradise. It was his intention that we all live in paradise. That gift of paradise was the beginning of His love and grace. However, He knew that by giving mankind a freedom of choice, that the possibility existed to reject Him. That is why Christ was crucified from the foundation of the Earth. The plan of salvation was prepared before salvation was needed.

Romans 5 explains to us that God gave grace to all mankind up until the time of Moses, nevertheless everyone still died. The law of God is his own character and integrity. Love fulfills the law. The love of God for all mankind is the source of his grace. The law of Moses was never meant to be a means of righteousness but a means to magnify sin so mankind would understand their lack of righteousness. Even though the love of God is the source of grace, the holiness of God is his source of righteousness. That span of time before Moses, in the mind of God, was already fulfilled by the Messiah's sacrifice to come which would fulfill his holiness. And for all who believed the promise of the Messiah, they received the blessing above the grace.

So when the Mosaic dispensation was given, those under it never received the blessing of salvation unless they believed in the promise of the Messiah to come, of which both David and Solomon believed. But believing the promise to come did not bring regeneration, only a temporary experience of the Holy Spirit. Thus they remained with hardened hearts. By comparison a fallen man is like a dog. You can not expect a dog to have intelligent discourse like a man. They are dogs. This is kind of like how God views the unregenerate. The polygamy of David and Solomon is the behavior of dogs, so to speak.

Even today in the regeneration, our new birth is limited to our human spirits being transformed. Our souls and bodies are still fallen, so their remains a type of hardness that is easily influenced by demons and the world system. When we are in the fullness of God's glory with the glorified bodies we get after Christ returns, then our total being will be holiness.

So can you explain 1 Kings 15:5? That David committed adultery every time he took his next wife isn't mentioned...only his causing of Uriah's death is considered a sin.

As I understand the story, David did not rely on the grace of God to carry him through his adultery which would have been given him when he repented. Instead he relied on the arm of his own flesh to cover up the adultery.

When David numbered the people of his kingdom his pride was his motivation and another leaning on the arm of his flesh. Knowing how many men could fight for him was a reliance again on the arm of the flesh instead of relying on God. Remember with Gideon, God had to remove all the soldiers down to 300 men so the credit of victory would clearly be God's and not the size of the army. Nonetheless when David was rebuked, He knew the mercy of God and let God decided which of the three punishments he would receive.

Grace is always given to us for repentance, not to continue in sin. But repentance is often a process that needs to be gone through to bring a man to the point where the resolve to repent is strong enough to be maintained. This is why we forgive 70 times 7. This is an acknowledgment of the repentance process. We are living beings that can not be handled like machines. We are the garden of God and we are treated like a garden by God as he works to grow the fruit in us that he desires.
 
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Tree of Life

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Would appreciate a definition of adultery if anyone would like to have a go. That this is important is highlighted by that it was a stonable offence:

Leviticus 20:10
“‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbour—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."

John 8:3-5
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women.Now what do you say?”

Narrowly speaking, adultery is the act of having sex with a married person who is not your spouse.
 
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janxharris

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Narrowly speaking, adultery is the act of having sex with a married person who is not your spouse.

That isn't the definition we find in Romans 7:1-3. Your definition would allow extra-marital sex and polygamy.
 
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janxharris

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I am glad you are seeking to understand what God is doing, and has done. Grace is the essence of love and life. God gave Adam and Eve paradise. It was his intention that we all live in paradise. That gift of paradise was the beginning of His love and grace. However, He knew that by giving mankind a freedom of choice, that the possibility existed to reject Him. That is why Christ was crucified from the foundation of the Earth. The plan of salvation was prepared before salvation was needed.

Romans 5 explains to us that God gave grace to all mankind up until the time of Moses, nevertheless everyone still died. The law of God is his own character and integrity. Love fulfills the law. The love of God for all mankind is the source of his grace. The law of Moses was never meant to be a means of righteousness but a means to magnify sin so mankind would understand their lack of righteousness. Even though the love of God is the source of grace, the holiness of God is his source of righteousness. That span of time before Moses, in the mind of God, was already fulfilled by the Messiah's sacrifice to come which would fulfill his holiness. And for all who believed the promise of the Messiah, they received the blessing above the grace.

So when the Mosaic dispensation was given, those under it never received the blessing of salvation unless they believed in the promise of the Messiah to come, of which both David and Solomon believed. But believing the promise to come did not bring regeneration, only a temporary experience of the Holy Spirit. Thus they remained with hardened hearts. By comparison a fallen man is like a dog. You can not expect a dog to have intelligent discourse like a man. They are dogs. This is kind of like how God views the unregenerate. The polygamy of David and Solomon is the behavior of dogs, so to speak.

Even today in the regeneration, our new birth is limited to our human spirits being transformed. Our souls and bodies are still fallen, so their remains a type of hardness that is easily influenced by demons and the world system. When we are in the fullness of God's glory with the glorified bodies we get after Christ returns, then our total being will be holiness.



As I understand the story, David did not rely on the grace of God to carry him through his adultery which would have been given him when he repented. Instead he relied on the arm of his own flesh to cover up the adultery.

When David numbered the people of his kingdom his pride was his motivation and another leaning on the arm of his flesh. Knowing how many men could fight for him was a reliance again on the arm of the flesh instead of relying on God. Remember with Gideon, God had to remove all the soldiers down to 300 men so the credit of victory would clearly be God's and not the size of the army. Nonetheless when David was rebuked, He knew the mercy of God and let God decided which of the three punishments he would receive.

Grace is always given to us for repentance, not to continue in sin. But repentance is often a process that needs to be gone through to bring a man to the point where the resolve to repent is strong enough to be maintained. This is why we forgive 70 times 7. This is an acknowledgment of the repentance process. We are living beings that can not be handled like machines. We are the garden of God and we are treated like a garden by God as he works to grow the fruit in us that he desires.

Thanks.

Do you not find it rather bizarre that such polygamy was not rebuked? And don't scriptures like Deuterononmy 25:5 on Leverate marriage further muddy the water? The living brother is to marry his dead brothers wife - and no proviso is given in the case that he is already married.

This being so - then polygamy is both lawful and not lawful.

Some even go as far as to say that the rules depend on one's sex - that Romans 7 literally pertains to women and NOT to men (that Paul intentionally made a woman the subject of his example rather than a man or both).
 
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Thanks.

Do you not find it rather bizarre that such polygamy was not rebuked? And don't scriptures like Deuterononmy 25:5 on Leverate marriage further muddy the water? The living brother is to marry his dead brothers wife - and no proviso is given in the case that he is already married.

This being so - then polygamy is both lawful and not lawful.

Some even go as far as to say that the rules depend on one's sex - that Romans 7 literally pertains to women and NOT to men (that Paul intentionally made a woman the subject of his example rather than a man or both).
I understand why it seems bizarre. But God giving grace to people in different periods never change the lawfulness or unlawfulness of a subject matter. This is my take away from Romans 5. No Mosaic law was given until Moses which means sin was not imputed to those people. Nonetheless, sin still existed and everyone still died. The consequence of sin always remains. In all those stories of the people who had polygamous or incestuous relationships, all kinds of trouble and problems occurred.

The OT for Christians is an example for us, not a covenant. We are not under the law but grace. So the OT stories warn us of consequences through those examples if we choose to sin. In Christ sin is not imputed, but the consequences remain. For those who think grace is license to sin, as in the sloppy agape crowd, they misunderstand the purpose of grace. Grace is given for repentance. As we realize those sinful choices we make, grace encourages us to repent. Paul tells us that it is the goodness of the Lord that leads us to repentance. Jesus said that if we love him we will obey his commandments. This does not mean our obedience proves our love, but rather, our motivation for obedience is because of our love for Him.

Much confusion is created when we try to understand God, and what He has done through the ages, with our natural understanding. It takes spiritual understanding which means we have to understand the character of God Himself to understand his motivations and purposes.
 
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