Regarding adultery

[Tree of Life]

That isn't the definition we find in Romans 7:1-3.

Yes it is.

Your definition would allow extra-marital sex and polygamy.

Yes it does.

 

[janxharris]

Yes it is.

Yes it does.

Jesus would seem to disagree with you:

Matthew 5:27-28
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Are you implying that one can be married and have sex with another unmarried person without looking lustfully at them?

Matthew 19:8
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Clearly, Jesus deems the individual as still married unless he divorces for reasons of sexual immorality. So, therefore, the man who divorces for any other reason is committing adultery if he marries again (he is still considered married) - and, thus, Jesus outlaws polygamy (bigamy).

The same would seem to be the case with Romans 7 (though, obviously, with regard to whether her husbands is alive or not).

Did I misunderstand you?

 

[janxharris]

I understand why it seems bizarre. But God giving grace to people in different periods never change the lawfulness or unlawfulness of a subject matter. This is my take away from Romans 5. No Mosaic law was given until Moses which means sin was not imputed to those people. Nonetheless, sin still existed and everyone still died. The consequence of sin always remains. In all those stories of the people who had polygamous or incestuous relationships, all kinds of trouble and problems occurred.

The OT for Christians is an example for us, not a covenant. We are not under the law but grace. So the OT stories warn us of consequences through those examples if we choose to sin. In Christ sin is not imputed, but the consequences remain. For those who think grace is license to sin, as in the sloppy agape crowd, they misunderstand the purpose of grace. Grace is given for repentance. As we realize those sinful choices we make, grace encourages us to repent. Paul tells us that it is the goodness of the Lord that leads us to repentance. Jesus said that if we love him we will obey his commandments. This does not mean our obedience proves our love, but rather, our motivation for obedience is because of our love for Him.

Much confusion is created when we try to understand God, and what He has done through the ages, with our natural understanding. It takes spiritual understanding which means we have to understand the character of God Himself to understand his motivations and purposes.

I understand your point about grace - but you didn't address what I said about Deut. 25.

 

[janxharris]

John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

My response would be - believe what? - the Bible permits polygamy and legislates for it. Jesus, though affirming that not one jot or tittle should pass from the law contracts it by making polygamy adultery.

Paul, also, in Romans 7:1-3 makes polygamy adultery.

As Jesus said himself - 'If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.'

And here on this forum we have a Presbyterian arguing that extra marital sex (with someone who isn't married) and polygamy do not constitute adultery:

#17
"Narrowly speaking, adultery is the act of having sex with a married person who is not your spouse."

 

[janxharris]

No response?

 

[janxharris]

Do we conclude that Christianity has no defence for this issue? That Jesus and Paul's views are at odds with Moses'?

 

[janxharris]

Okay - my last BUMP and I'll leave off.

This didn't quite happen..."Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have."

 

[gadar perets]

As I understand adultery, it is the act of having sexual relations with someone who is NOT your spouse or simply lusting after someone who is not your spouse. When a person marries a second wife, for example, having sex with her is not adultery because she is now his wife. Had they had sex before marriage, it would be adultery.

Polygamy was not unlawful in the Tanakh and it was regulated. It may have been allowed so that the earth could be populated more quickly. Similarly, having relations with one's sister or brother was permissible as well until the time of Moses.

Women did not have two or more husbands.

 

[gadar perets]

Do we conclude that Christianity has no defence for this issue? That Jesus and Paul's views are at odds with Moses'?

It seems to me that Yeshua was setting things right. Divorce for all sorts of reasons was not YHWH's perfect will, so Yeshua was revealing YHWH's perfect will; divorce is only permissible for sexual immorality. Similarly, polygamy was not YHWH's perfect will, so Yeshua set that right as well; a man should be married to one wife.

 

[janxharris]

It seems to me that Yeshua was setting things right. Divorce for all sorts of reasons was not YHWH's perfect will, so Yeshua was revealing YHWH's perfect will; divorce is only permissible for sexual immorality. Similarly, polygamy was not YHWH's perfect will, so Yeshua set that right as well; a man should be married to one wife.

Thanks for your reply.

If your reasoning is correct, why did Jesus say

Matthew 5:17-18
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

?

Apparently, Jesus is saying that laws relating polygamy 'will by no means disappear'.

 

[gadar perets]

Thanks for your reply.

If your reasoning is correct, why did Jesus say

Matthew 5:17-18
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

?

Apparently, Jesus is saying that laws relating polygamy 'will by no means disappear'.

I agree, polygamy laws have not disappeared. If a man chooses to be a polygamist, he must adhere to those laws. However, there are no laws saying a person must be a polygamist. Since Yeshua and other NT writers suggest we should not practice polygamy, then we should obey and not marry two or more women. Actually, since those in Messiah Yeshua are said to be "kings", then we should obey the Torah teaching regarding kings not multiplying wives to themselves (Deuteronomy 17:17).

 

[janxharris]

I agree, polygamy laws have not disappeared. If a man chooses to be a polygamist, he must adhere to those laws. However, there are no laws saying a person must be a polygamist. Since Yeshua and other NT writers suggest we should not practice polygamy, then we should obey and not marry two or more women. Actually, since those in Messiah Yeshua are said to be "kings", then we should obey the Torah teaching regarding kings not multiplying wives to themselves (Deuteronomy 17:17).

Some might argue that this is doublespeak - that, in fact, scripture is contradicting itself.

Why would I, should I, trust such a document? The sceptic has a case doesn't he? I cannot believe that a creator of the universe would leave such an anomaly in his writings and expect that we should put our faith in it. One could use such an argument to reject Darwinism for instance. By all means say that the work of God is to believe in the one who was sent - but not if what we have as a testament to Jesus is seemingly flawed.

 

[janxharris]

I agree, polygamy laws have not disappeared. If a man chooses to be a polygamist, he must adhere to those laws. However, there are no laws saying a person must be a polygamist. Since Yeshua and other NT writers suggest we should not practice polygamy, then we should obey and not marry two or more women. Actually, since those in Messiah Yeshua are said to be "kings", then we should obey the Torah teaching regarding kings not multiplying wives to themselves (Deuteronomy 17:17).

That more than one husband for a woman is explicitly outlawed (Romans 7:1-3) should mean that it's the same for men. Having to defend that it is okay for men makes for an uncomfortable defence and renders the seventh commandment almost meaningless.

 

[gadar perets]

Some might argue that this is doublespeak - that, in fact, scripture is contradicting itself.

Why would I, should I, trust such a document? The sceptic has a case doesn't he? I cannot believe that a creator of the universe would leave such an anomaly in his writings and expect that we should put our faith in it. One could use such an argument to reject Darwinism for instance. By all means say that the work of God is to believe in the one who was sent - but not if what we have as a testament to Jesus is seemingly flawed.

Skeptics will say all manner of things in an attempt to discredit Scripture. That doesn't mean they are correct. Any anomaly that seems to present itself has its foundation in the person who sees it and not in the text itself. When the Word is rightly understood there is harmony. Skeptics create disharmony.

 

[janxharris]

Skeptics will say all manner of things in an attempt to discredit Scripture. That doesn't mean they are correct. Any anomaly that seems to present itself has its foundation in the person who sees it and not in the text itself. When the Word is rightly understood there is harmony. Skeptics create disharmony.

Yet you would have to concede that Jesus was not making a definitive statement when he said that looking lustfully at another woman was adultery.

It's possible to be a polygamist and not look lustfully?

You make an assertion - but you haven't actually refuted what I said. Your position is that polygamy is lawful. Hearing this from a Christian pretty astonishing to me and enough reason to doubt scripture.

 

[gadar perets]

That more than one husband for a woman is explicitly outlawed (Romans 7:1-3) should mean that it's the same for men. Having to defend that it is okay for men makes for an uncomfortable defence and renders the seventh commandment almost meaningless.

I never said it was OK for men. Neither did the Almighty. Under the New Covenant, it is not OK. Under the Old Covenant, it was not OK, but was allowed, probably for the same reason divorce was, because of the hardness of men's hearts. The fact that YHWH forbid it for kings should have given the common man a hint that it was YHWH's perfect will that man have only one wife.

 

[gadar perets]

Yet you would have to concede that Jesus was not making a definitive statement when he said that looking lustfully at another woman was adultery.

Are you saying he did not mean what he said?

It's possible to be a polygamist and not look lustfully?

Yes. A Levirate marriage is one example. Marrying someone to help care for the household or because one has compassion on them as a widow may be other examples.

You make an assertion - but you haven't actually refuted what I said. Your position is that polygamy is lawful. Hearing this from a Christian pretty astonishing to me and enough reason to doubt scripture.

I am not a Christian (and all that entails in modern Christianity), but I am a disciple of Messiah Yeshua and try to walk his ways .

While polygamy was permitted under the Old Covenant, it is not permitted under the New Covenant. It is similar to divorce. YHWH permitted it because of the hardness of their hearts, but it was not His perfect will.

 

[gadar perets]

but you haven't actually refuted what I said.

What, exactly, have I not refuted?

 

[janxharris]

I never said it was OK for men. Neither did the Almighty.

2 Samuel 12:7-8
Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.

The fact that YHWH forbid it for kings should have given the common man a hint that it was YHWH's perfect will that man have only one wife.

In the same breath kings are told not multiply horses - so the context is not having multiples rather than having several.

 

[janxharris]

Are you saying he did not mean what he said?

Since polygamy was permitted, no - not definitively.

Yes. A Levirate marriage is one example. Marrying someone to help care for the household or because one has compassion on them as a widow may be other examples.

Please explain how it possible to marry someone without having lustful thoughts for them.