Regarding adultery

[gadar perets]

2 Samuel 12:7-8
Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.

"These words refer to the fact that, according to the general custom in the East, when a king died, his successor upon the throne also succeeded to his harem, so that David was at liberty to take his predecessor's wives; though we cannot infer from this that he actually did so: in fact this is by no means probable, since, according to 1Sa_14:50, Saul had but one wife, and according to 2Sa_3:7 only one concubine, whom Abner appropriated to himself." (Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the OT)​

In the same breath kings are told not multiply horses - so the context is not having multiples rather than having several.

Possibly, or it can refer to the king having only what was needed to pull his own chariot or ride personally as was understood by several Jewish commentators/commentaries (Jarchi, the Misnah, Maimonides; the Targum of Jonathan restrains it to two).

 

[gadar perets]

Since polygamy was permitted, no - not definitively.

It was only a few sentences later that he nixed polygamy. If we don't isolate his words in verse 28, then I think he was being definitive.

Please explain how it possible to marry someone without having lustful thoughts for them.

Did Jacob lust after Leah before they were married? No. Many marriages were arranged by the parents without even the opportunity to lust for the future spouse. In a Levirate marriage, the man was obligated to marry his brother's widow if she was childless. If she had children, he could avoid marrying her. If she was childless and not pleasing to the eye, he would marry her without lusting for her.

 

[janxharris]

As I understand adultery, it is the act of having sexual relations with someone who is NOT your spouse or simply lusting after someone who is not your spouse. When a person marries a second wife, for example, having sex with her is not adultery because she is now his wife. Had they had sex before marriage, it would be adultery.

Not according to Romans 7:1-3
Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

The emboldened clearly implies that marrying another whilst her husband is still alive would be adultery.

Are you suggesting the definition of adultery depends on whether one is male or female?

 

[janxharris]

"These words refer to the fact that, according to the general custom in the East, when a king died, his successor upon the throne also succeeded to his harem, so that David was at liberty to take his predecessor's wives; though we cannot infer from this that he actually did so: in fact this is by no means probable, since, according to 1Sa_14:50, Saul had but one wife, and according to 2Sa_3:7 only one concubine, whom Abner appropriated to himself." (Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the OT)​

Either way, David was a polygamist (including concubines) and was never rebuked for it.

2 Samuel 5:13
After he left Hebron, David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem, and more sons and daughters were born to him.

1 Kings 15:5
For David had done what was right in the eyes of the Lord and had not failed to keep any of the Lord’s commands all the days of his life—except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.

 

[janxharris]

It was only a few sentences later that he nixed polygamy. If we don't isolate his words in verse 28, then I think he was being definitive.


Did Jacob lust after Leah before they were married? No. Many marriages were arranged by the parents without even the opportunity to lust for the future spouse. In a Levirate marriage, the man was obligated to marry his brother's widow i she was childless. If she had children, he could avoid marrying her. If she was childless and not pleasing to the eye, he would marry her without lusting for her.

Having sex requires lust does it not?

 

[janxharris]

To anyone interested - it is not my intention to disprove scripture (even though this might seem to be the case upon reading my posts); rather, I wish to examine and test to see if what is written is true.

Acts 17:11

 

[gadar perets]

Not according to Romans 7:1-3
Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

The emboldened clearly implies that marrying another whilst her husband is still alive would be adultery.

Are you suggesting the definition of adultery depends on whether one is male or female?

The bold does not imply marrying another while her husband is still alive is adultery. It is talking about her husband being dead which frees her to marry another. Romans 7:3a addresses forbidden sex while her husband is still alive and Romans 7:3b addresses permissible sex after he dies (as long as she marries the second man before having sex).

 

[gadar perets]

Either way, David was a polygamist (including concubines) and was never rebuked for it.

I agree.

 

[gadar perets]

Having sex requires lust does it not?

You first asked, "Please explain how it possible to marry someone without having lustful thoughts for them." I assumed you meant lust prior to marriage, to which I answered accordingly. Are you now asking about sex requiring lust with one's own spouse?

We are discussing Yeshua's statement concerning lust as a result of looking upon a woman, not lust while having sex.

 

[janxharris]

The bold does not imply marrying another while her husband is still alive is adultery.

What is it then?

 

[janxharris]

You first asked, "Please explain how it possible to marry someone without having lustful thoughts for them." I assumed you meant lust prior to marriage, to which I answered accordingly. Are you now asking about sex requiring lust with one's own spouse?

We are discussing Yeshua's statement concerning lust as a result of looking upon a woman, not lust while having sex.

Perhaps I was careless in my wording - but either way, one would be transgressing the standard Jesus sets here since marriages are to be consummated.

 

[gadar perets]

What is it then?

But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.
​

It means exactly what it says. The death of her husband frees her to marry another. If she does so, she won't be guilty of adultery.

 

[gadar perets]

Perhaps I was careless in my wording - but either way, one would be transgressing the standard Jesus sets here since marriages are to be consummated.

As I understand it, there is no guilt for lusting after one's spouse.

 

[janxharris]

But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.
​

It means exactly what it says. The death of her husband frees her to marry another. If she does so, she won't be guilty of adultery.

With the obvious corollary that she is an adulteress in the other case ie - if she commits polyandry.

If a woman marries two or more men (at least two of which are alive at the same time) - is she an adulteress?

 

[janxharris]

As I understand it, there is no guilt for lusting after one's spouse.

But lusting after an additional person (ie in addition to ones wife or husband (whether you are married to this additional person or not) is proscribed.

Do you agree?

 

[janxharris]

I agree.

But you don't agree that it was adultery. Jesus asserts that just looking at another woman is adultery of the heart and yet marrying two women isn't?

I would assume that a omniscient God would want to clarify so that we might not become sceptical - in the same vane as Acts 2:22:

Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Who would have taken Jesus seriously without some demonstration of the miraculous?

 

[gadar perets]

With the obvious corollary that she is an adulteress in the other case ie - if she commits polyandry.

If a woman marries two or more men (at least two of which are alive at the same time) - is she an adulteress?

Yes, she is an adulteress. I do not believe polyandry is permitted for women based on the fact that YHWH did not regulate it as He did with men. I would also appeal to Genesis 3:16 in which the curse upon the woman is that her "husband" (singular) would rule over her. It would cause great turmoil and confusion in a marriage if the wife had two husbands that were giving her conflicting leadership.

 

[gadar perets]

But lusting after an additional person (ie in addition to ones wife or husband (whether you are married to this additional person or not) is proscribed.

Do you agree?

I agree with your statement if you remove "(whether you are married to this additional person or not)". In the case of polygamy, the husband can lust after both wives.

 

[gadar perets]

But you don't agree that it was adultery. Jesus asserts that just looking at another woman is adultery of the heart and yet marrying two women isn't?

David was a polygamist, but it wasn't adultery. If it was adultery, then how does that harmonize with
1 Kings 15:5?

Because David did that which was right in the eyes of YHWH, and turned not aside from any thing that He commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.​

I would assume that a omniscient God would want to clarify so that we might not become sceptical - in the same vane as Acts 2:22:

Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Who would have taken Jesus seriously without some demonstration of the miraculous?

?? I'm not sure what you are getting at. Yeshua was to be taken seriously, especially because of the works YHWH did through him. His words concerning adultery in the heart were also to be taken seriously. I do not believe those words pertain to lusting after one's own spouse.

 

[janxharris]

David was a polygamist, but it wasn't adultery. If it was adultery, then how does that harmonize with
1 Kings 15:5?

Because David did that which was right in the eyes of YHWH, and turned not aside from any thing that He commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.​

?? I'm not sure what you are getting at. Yeshua was to be taken seriously, especially because of the works YHWH did through him. His words concerning adultery in the heart were also to be taken seriously. I do not believe those words pertain to lusting after one's own spouse.

Perhaps these words of Jesus might assist in this debate:

Matthew 19:8-9
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Why, exactly, does this constitute as adultery in your view?