A thread on evolution

[Obliquinaut]

It may be an aside, but I've never understood why evangelicals resort to fear based approaches. Does it really seem an effective technique? Perhaps it is, but resorting to fear to coerce people into a belief system just seems rather repugnant.

While almost no Christian will want to do that it is a very effective technique. Especially for the young. AND it's doubly effective when one runs out of strategies to get people to accept your point.

It's a pretty human feature, though. Coercion.

That's why Ray's evangelical approach strikes me as a person selling insurance. It's reducing a deep belief system with a storied history and turning into an insurance policy. Do evangelicals really think that is good witnessing?

I actually am quite sad today for the state of Christianity. No longer the faith of the Scholastics who valued thought and philosophy and logic. Today's Evangelicals seem to value anything that AVOIDS that. Almost treating theology's deep philosophical/rhetorical roots as if it is anathema.

Evangelicals aren't as much fun to debate theology with because it sometimes seems kind vapid.

It makes me wonder if Ray will did 'win' any converts, how sincere those conversions really are.

By Any Means Necessary.

 

[Obliquinaut]

He always struck me as more of a carnival huckster playing word-games. Especially after the Banana Incident.

I think he prefers simple arguments (possibly a reflection of the depth of his self-examination) and knows that his intended audience will like those as well (for much the same reason). It's kinda sad. ESPECIALLY when he presents his poorly-grasped apprehensions so ROBUSTLY. As if he's just the sharpest tool in the shed and he really wants to help the ignorant masses. Kinda sad.

 

[createdtoworship]

OK first off, you didn't really "discuss" anything, you asked everyone to watch 2 hours of your favorite viewing selections. OTHERS discussed the point.

Secondly the "First Uncause Cause" argument of Aquinas (which is kind of what you are bordering on here) is essentially little more than special pleading. You simply COMMAND that "God has always existed" and from there you get the Universe. When anyone asks where did God come from (because everything needs a precipitating cause) the answer of the faithful is "God has always existed! QED!"

If you find that to be a SATISFYING ANSWER then the more common atheist answer: "we don't really know what came before the universe" must sound very strange. The claim that the universe came from nothing isn't really a robust scientific stance. It's a placeholder. The fact of the matter is we don't know.

Personally I'm more comfortable when I hear people say "I don't know" than someone who claims they know just because they (or someone else) said so and even then the answer is predicated on Special Pleading.

at least two athiests (famous) claim to know what started the universe....nothing.

but common sense dictates that if not God, then what possibley could exist that did not start itself existing? God's definition is that He is self existant and self defininig. A force could not be self existant. So many famous athiests like dawkins and others

plus I am wondering what video's you think I posted because you keep saying 2 hours. I only see half that, an hour and five minutes.

 

[createdtoworship]

Evolution doesn't contain as a fundamental assumption "There is no God". It's a mistake to say that it does.

stellar evolution via lawrence crous, and richard dawkins involves nothing, no God....aka athiesm

 

[createdtoworship]

But you and I know that your first video was a worthless piece of quote mining. Your fear of learning only confirms that you know that to be the case.

can you prove quote mining exists? And you cannot beg the question by using a quote mine to prove a quote mine. No more than I can use God to prove God. It's circular. you must use something from without, a separate reference. And you and I both know that wiki related sources are biased and full of errors, due to being open sourced and non authoritative.

 

[createdtoworship]

I think he prefers simple arguments (possibly a reflection of the depth of his self-examination) and knows that his intended audience will like those as well (for much the same reason). It's kinda sad. ESPECIALLY when he presents his poorly-grasped apprehensions so ROBUSTLY. As if he's just the sharpest tool in the shed and he really wants to help the ignorant masses. Kinda sad.

again if you chose to do technical language, you isolate much of society from your information.

 

[lesliedellow]

stellar evolution via lawrence crous, and richard dawkins involves nothing, no God....aka athiesm

Then why don't you ask John Polkinghorne, or Antony Hewish, or Gorge Coyne, or John D Barrow, or J Richard Gott, or Christopher Isham, or Freeman Dyson instead?

I am sure they could all tell you that the big bang theory in no way excludes God.

 

[createdtoworship]

I did pray a lot when I was still a believer. I have never received an answer though. Maybe your God does not wish to reveal himself to me and prefers to keep hiding in the clouds. Whatever the case, not my problem.

the bible says if we hide sin in our heart he does not hear us. In coming to christ one must humble himself, realize he is imperfect and does not deserve to go to a perfect heaven. Which would be like a log on a fire. Sin in the presence of a perfect God. We humble ourselves, realize we don't deserve grace. and we pray a simple prayer of acceptance. Dear God I (a)dmit I am a sinner, I (b)elieve that you died for me on the cross for my sins, and I (c) commit to you, by repenting of any sin that keeps me from you. Sins of adultery, sins of thievery, or sins of greed. And I accept your free gift of eternal life. Three results happen when this happens. All our sins past present and future are forgiven. Our name is found written in the Book of life. And Jesus says that he will personally live in our heart. When he lives in our heart he will forever be there to answer prayers. But many times our sins are not forgiven and every time God see us praying he just sees a greedy sinner. But after forgiveness we are his child. And just as a father would never give his son a stone when he is hungary, so the heavenly father will never leave us empty. It does not mean the christian life is easy, it is far harder than a life of sin. But in some ways we are safe from the curses of someone living in sex and drugs. I was brought by a girlfriend to church and I got saved at a camp. We wrote our worst sins on a sheet of paper, we crumbled it and threw it in the bon fire. IT is there that I realized God does forgive our past and gives us a future and a hope. After that I stumbled and struggled to live my own ways for awhile. It was when i fealt farthest from God. LAter I was in a car accident where the car flipped three times on the freeway. And i said to God "if you save me I will give you my life as a ministry."

He did and I did. Now I am free from many addictions that i used to be addicted to. I was addicted to porn and have been free for four years now. completely free. I was addicted to materialism, and I have bee free from that for several years. Now I have a wonderful family, and a steady job. And I can't complain about anything. But again it's not a bed of roses, there are many trials that befall even christians, but now we have power to get through the trial.

IF you hear every thing above and you don't commit to Christ. You dont' make it. Do you understand the Gospel?

 

[Obliquinaut]

again if you chose to do technical language, you isolate much of society from your information.

Only those who are too lazy to put work in on it.

 

[createdtoworship]

Only those who are too lazy to put work in on it.

you apparently don't do marketing much. the most wisest of people will make complex methods, simple to understand. This is a value in any great teacher.

 

[createdtoworship]

But you and I know that your first video was a worthless piece of quote mining. Your fear of learning only confirms that you know that to be the case.

again if you feel it's a quote out of context then these should suffice, use the full video, below, and contrast it to the cropped video, and prove that the full sentences are quoted out of context:

 

[createdtoworship]

five minutes into this dawkins links darwin and stellar evolution

 

[Obliquinaut]

at least two athiests (famous) claim to know what started the universe....nothing.

You suggested something about my beliefs. And just being an atheist does not one a cosmologist make.

but common sense dictates that if not God, then what possibley

Time for a little Philosophy 101. When you take a philosophy class and they discuss the various Arguments for God you will hear about "The Prime Mover" "The First Uncaused Cause". This is precisely what you are going for here.

Now, since you are DISALLOWING any conception that anything can exist forever (even going backwards forever) it is a case of SPECIAL PLEADING that God can do this. But...WHY? Because He's God is not really "compelling".

What you have done is merely plug into the gap in our understanding a concept you have simply CLAIMED exists forever. That isn't all that explanatory.

could exist that did not start itself existing? God's definition is that He is self existant and self defininig.

Which is really kinda meaningless.

plus I am wondering what video's you think I posted because you keep saying 2 hours. I only see half that, an hour and five minutes.

Oh sorry I didn't watch the first one. I watched the Atheist Delusion which was an hour. I assumed the other was an hour as well. Didn't look at the time stamp.

 

[lesliedellow]

five minutes into this dawkins links darwin and stellar evolution

It is truly amazing, the way you hang upon Dawkins' every word, as if they came directly from the mouth of God.

No sane theist could care less about his religious views.

 

[Skreeper]

I was brought by a girlfriend to church and I got saved at a camp.

How does that work exactly? How did you "know" you got saved?

LAter I was in a car accident where the car flipped three times on the freeway. And i said to God "if you save me I will give you my life as a ministry."
He did and I did.

So you survived a car accident. And you attribute it to the prayer you spoke? How do you know that prayer saved you from the crash? All sorts of people survive accidents without praying so it seems that prayer isn't required.

I was addicted to porn and have been free for four years now.

I was addicted to materialism, and I have bee free from that for several years.

You should give yourself credit for that. Why do you think a God is required to stop an addiction? Do you think people can't overcome their addictions by themselves?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

So I've read all of this thread, and I really have to say: nothing from gradyll shows that they're interested in having a debate. It really seems that they just want to preach.

 

[Skreeper]

again if you feel it's a quote out of context then these should suffice, use the full video, below, and contrast it to the cropped video, and prove that the full sentences are quoted out of context:

Your obsession with Dawkins and Krauss seems unhealthy. They are not the rulers of atheism and you should stop treating them as such.

Don't presume what atheists believe based on 2 people especially if you don't even manage to understand what these 2 actually believe when they say "a universe from nothing".

 

[majj27]

stellar evolution via lawrence crous, and richard dawkins involves nothing, no God....aka athiesm

2+6=8 does not involve God either, technically. That doesn't make you an atheist if you know how to add.

The lack of a divine force explicitly named in the description of a process does not make the process atheistic, nor theistic. Which is fine. God is not a mathematical variable, nor is God a step in stellar formation. That reduces God to merely a function of natural laws.

 

[Obliquinaut]

IF you hear every thing above and you don't commit to Christ. You dont' make it. Do you understand the Gospel?

I am glad your faith gives you comfort and joy. It certainly sounds like it was moving for you and helped you.

Not everyone has the same "spiritual path". It is always good to see what other people have gone through to arrive at their current position.

I seldom see Christians who are willing to look at what Atheists think or how they might have arrived at a different conclusion than the Christian. So we see repeated generalizations (often quite incorrect) about what an atheist thinks. But thanks for sharing your experiences and what brought you to where you are at.

 

[Subduction Zone]

five minutes into this dawkins links darwin and stellar evolution

Nope, you misunderstood it at best.