A thread on evolution

[Subduction Zone]

again if you feel it's a quote out of context then these should suffice, use the full video, below, and contrast it to the cropped video, and prove that the full sentences are quoted out of context:

No problem. As soon as you follow through with your word.

 

[Obliquinaut]

How does that work exactly? How did you "know" you got saved?

It's just that. A feeling. And for those of us who tried to get that feeling, when the feeling didn't seem real to us it became an empty concept.

But for many people that feeling is something that is very important and very moving. If they take that feeling and move forward with it it can be a path to doing some great things. Of course it can also be leveraged to give the recipient a feeling of superior knowledge.

You should give yourself credit for that. Why do you think a God is required to stop an addiction? Do you think people can't overcome their addictions by themselves?

It is a common feature of 12 step programs to have some "higher power". I think the key is that one suffering from addiction needs to be mindful that they have failed before relying only on their "personal strength" or "intellect". So in a sense there's arguably a value of reminding oneself that one has to be vigilant in dealing with addictions. That in some ways they have to be humble.

But I'm not an addiction specialist. Personally when I went to a 12-step style meeting related to my OCD I really didn't find it all that appealing. But I can certainly understand why it might appeal to some and maybe work for some.

 

[Subduction Zone]

can you prove quote mining exists? And you cannot beg the question by using a quote mine to prove a quote mine. No more than I can use God to prove God. It's circular. you must use something from without, a separate reference. And you and I both know that wiki related sources are biased and full of errors, due to being open sourced and non authoritative.

I already did long ago. I included links and everything. What did you not understand?

And I never used a "quote mine to prove a quote mine". You do not seem to even understand the concept.

And you don't get to set the rules on how a concept is proved. If you can't follow a basic conversation perhaps you should not attempt to debate.
And lastly, no , we do not know that Wiki is "biased and full of errors". That is a claim that you need to support. I can show you that that is not the case. But there is no need to until you prove your claim first.

 

[bhsmte]

Funny thread.

 

[createdtoworship]

Debates don't accomplish much. other than frustration.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Debates don't accomplish much. other than frustration.

Well, debates when conducted between informed individuals who are willing to put the work in on their position can be fruitful. But that isn't really what we have here. Or on most of CF.

 

[pitabread]

Debates don't accomplish much. other than frustration.

This is mostly true. They can be useful for learning about one's own views, but they tend not to work at converting the other person's point of view.

 

[pitabread]

Not everyone has the same "spiritual path". It is always good to see what other people have gone through to arrive at their current position.

One thing I have noticed is that conversion or re-affirmation stories invariably involve some sort of tragedy, personal loss, depression or other trauma. You never seem to find conversion stories where people are happy, successful and content and then suddenly find religion.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Debates don't accomplish much. other than frustration.

Well, they can accomplish more than that, especially for bystanders not directly involved in the debate. However, it's really easy to demonstrate that quote mines exist. Here's a Christian apologetics site filled with them Evolution: Fact or Fallacy
Allow me to use some examples of quote mines from this page:
"No matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of evolution" (Pierre-Paul Grasse, evolutionist)
What this quote fails to mention is that this man was not a supporter of Darwinian evolution at all. Rather, he was a supporter of Lamarckian evolution, the idea that acquired changes in organisms during their life can be passed down to their offspring (such as a giraffe stretching its neck to reach leaves, resulting in offspring with longer necks). This was discarded decades ago.

"My attempts to demonstrate evolution by an experiment carried on for more than 40 years have completely failed" (N. H. Nilson, famous botanist and evolutionist)
Another Lamarckian.

"The evolutionist thesis has become more stringently unthinkable than ever before" (Wolfgang Smith, Ph.D.)
The Ph.D is in Math. Most relevant thing about him to evolution was that he was a "philosopher of science", he never was involved in any experiments relevant to evolution.

The uniform, continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature" (George Simpson, paleontologist and evolutionist)
Out of context, he's referring to the difference between phyletic gradualism (to which he disagrees with) and punctuated equilibrium. These are two different schools of thought related to how quickly evolutionary changes occur, with the former suggesting continuous and slow change, and the latter suggesting periods of relatively fast change intermittent with periods of very minimal change. Most quotes along these lines are quote mines related to punctuated equilibrium.

"Evolution is unprovable. We believe it because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable" (Sir Arthur Keith, evolutionist)
This man is a known fraud, essentially exiled from the scientific community due to his involvement with Piltdown man. Additionally, there are no verified sources for this quote at all, so it is not only out of context, but it's also complete fiction. Not that it would matter much, Keith died in 1955 so his relevance to evolution is over.

 

[lesliedellow]

One thing I have noticed is that conversion or re-affirmation stories invariably involve some sort of tragedy, personal loss, depression or other trauma. You never seem to find conversion stories where people are happy, successful and content and then suddenly find religion.

Then I must be an exception to that rule.

With another exception being the scientist Francis Collins.

 

[bhsmte]

This is mostly true. They can be useful for learning about one's own views, but they tend not to work at converting the other person's point of view.

Agree. Rarely will a person throw up their hands when their argumentbis destroyed with evidence and say; you are right and i was wrong. Most people, tend to double down when their argument is destoyed. I do think, how a person debates, can often reveal quite a bit about a persons character.

 

[createdtoworship]

No problem. As soon as you follow through with your word.

This just goes to show your motive us not really for truth but to win a debate. I care about truth and care less about debate

 

[createdtoworship]

Well, they can accomplish more than that, especially for bystanders not directly involved in the debate. However, it's really easy to demonstrate that quote mines exist. Here's a Christian apologetics site filled with them Evolution: Fact or Fallacy
Allow me to use some examples of quote mines from this page:
"No matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of evolution" (Pierre-Paul Grasse, evolutionist)
What this quote fails to mention is that this man was not a supporter of Darwinian evolution at all. Rather, he was a supporter of Lamarckian evolution, the idea that acquired changes in organisms during their life can be passed down to their offspring (such as a giraffe stretching its neck to reach leaves, resulting in offspring with longer necks). This was discarded decades ago.

"My attempts to demonstrate evolution by an experiment carried on for more than 40 years have completely failed" (N. H. Nilson, famous botanist and evolutionist)
Another Lamarckian.

"The evolutionist thesis has become more stringently unthinkable than ever before" (Wolfgang Smith, Ph.D.)
The Ph.D is in Math. Most relevant thing about him to evolution was that he was a "philosopher of science", he never was involved in any experiments relevant to evolution.

The uniform, continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature" (George Simpson, paleontologist and evolutionist)
Out of context, he's referring to the difference between phyletic gradualism (to which he disagrees with) and punctuated equilibrium. These are two different schools of thought related to how quickly evolutionary changes occur, with the former suggesting continuous and slow change, and the latter suggesting periods of relatively fast change intermittent with periods of very minimal change. Most quotes along these lines are quote mines related to punctuated equilibrium.

"Evolution is unprovable. We believe it because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable" (Sir Arthur Keith, evolutionist)
This man is a known fraud, essentially exiled from the scientific community due to his involvement with Piltdown man. Additionally, there are no verified sources for this quote at all, so it is not only out of context, but it's also complete fiction. Not that it would matter much, Keith died in 1955 so his relevance to evolution is over.

Does not prove quote mines exist at all, quote mine are a fabrication of the evolutionists and doesnt exist in any formal dictionary.

 

[lesliedellow]

Does not prove quote mines exist at all, quote mine are a fabrication of the evolutionists and doesnt exist in any formal dictionary.

How pathetic. Quote mines both exist, and PsychoSarah has just recorded a whole list of them.

 

[pitabread]

Then I must be an exception to that rule.

With another exception being the scientist Francis Collins.

I can't speak for you, but it seems that suffering (at least others' suffering) played a role in Francis Collins' conversion:

He converted from atheism to Christianity in his twenties after seeing how radically his patients' faith transformed their experience of suffering, and after reading several works by C.S. Lewis.

The Question of God . Other Voices . Francis Collins | PBS

 

[pitabread]

Does not prove quote mines exist at all, quote mine are a fabrication of the evolutionists and doesnt exist in any formal dictionary.

Are you seriously denying reality right now?

I mean, I've seen this sort of thing before, but never denying the existence of quote mining. That's just... wow.

 

[Subduction Zone]

This just goes to show your motive us not really for truth but to win a debate. I care about truth and care less about debate

Hardly, in fact it is the other way around. Part of seeking the truth is keeping your word. You can't care too much about the truth. Once again, hold up your end of the bargain and then you can make demands of me.

 

[lesliedellow]

I can't speak for you, but it seems that suffering (at least others' suffering) played a role in Francis Collins' conversion:



The Question of God . Other Voices . Francis Collins | PBS

 

[createdtoworship]

How pathetic. Quote mines both exist, and PsychoSarah has just recorded a whole list of them.

find it in a dictionary, not a cheap online fabricated dictionary but a real one with pages. Quote mines don't exist in any formal dictionary.

 

[createdtoworship]

Hardly, in fact it is the other way around. Part of seeking the truth is keeping your word. You can't care too much about the truth. Once again, hold up your end of the bargain and then you can make demands of me.

it's not that I don't care about the truth, it's just that I am not too impressed with your debate tactic, and have given it little thought. (not about keeping my word or not)