On Free Will

[Anto9us]

Every time (and I mean every time) any discusion where Reformed theogony is brought up, some sort of "but man has free will" argument arises, as if the secular humanistic view of free will is some sort of counter argument.

Well...
If "Reformed theogony" is NEVER BROUGHT UP -- then there's no problem, right?

Does "Reformed theogony" differ in any way from "Reformed theology" ?

 

[Tolworth John]

John, does *comes to him* there necessarily mean *decides to choose God?*

Or does it simply refer to those who DO accept Christ, period?

I understand it to mean come to saving faith in Jesus, simple because anything else is a waste of time.

 

[Hammster]

Well...
If "Reformed theogony" is NEVER BROUGHT UP -- then there' no problem

This is true.

*fixed

 

[Albion]

I understand it to mean come to saving faith in Jesus, simple because anything else is a waste of time.

All right, but the wording doesn't indicate what it is that moves him to God/Christ, right? It only speaks of those who are changed.

 

[Hammster]

I understand it to mean come to saving faith in Jesus, simple because anything else is a waste of time.

Is coming to saving faith a spiritual endeavor? Does it glorify God?

 

[pshun2404]

So my question is this. Can the natural man do anything that's spiritually good? Or to ask another way, can the natural man do anything to glorify God?

The problem comes from two issues.

a) the Roman Catholic judicial interpretation of the fall, and
b) A misinterpretation of man's fallen condition of depravity = absolute incapability (hence Total Depravity)

Now they had a motive, and it was to set themselves up as the sole source of truth and salvation, which was NOT of Christ. To accept that salvation DEPENDS on man's will or choice is not taught if one looks at the whole counsel of God's word but neither is it taught therein that man has no part in the process (salvation is an entirely a "by grace" process, not a single event in temporal time. God owes no man anything because all have sinned).

When God initiates the opportunity with man to do it right (via the Spirit or the word) it is His sovereign plan that man must respond appropriately "through faith" (John 1:12; Acts 2:38; Revelations 3:20).

I will give you one example from Genesis. In the story of Cain God audibly speaks to Cain before he chooses to kill Abel. Even though Cain had not brought the appropriate sacrifice (without blood there nis no remission)...none the less He does not condemn Cain but sincerely offers him a choice (if you go and do it right will it also not go well with thee?). He even forewarns Cain that if he does not then sin lays at the door waiting to rule over him.

Now the Lord foreknew exactly what Cain would choose to do (because after Genesis 3:5 we desire to be our own lord) but the choice had to be his for the judgment to be just. God did NOT make Cain choose, otherwise the promise/warning was a lie, and God is NOT a man that He should lie.

 

[Monna]

Define 'good' and 'glorify God.'

Is being an instrument of God a 'good' thing? and is accomplishing God's will something that 'glorifies God?'

Nebuchadnezer was, according to Jeremiah and Ezra an instrument of God to punish his people after their constant provocation. (Ezra 5; Jeremiah 27.)

At the same time, 1 Corinthians 13 seems to say that if anything is not done in love, it is of no value or consequence in God's eyes, and therefore would seem not to be either good or glorifying to Him. Since there is no love except what God gives us, 'unspiritual, natural' man cannot on his own do anything good or glorifying to God.

Even non-living things can glorify God simply by their being his creations. If that is true then our very existence as human beings is a glory to God.

Confused? I definitely am. Hence my need to find the right definition of 'good' and 'glorify God.'

 

[Tolworth John]

I'm really sorry, but I'm not sure I understand your post as it relates to my question.

You ask is God pleased by people seeking him.
Well the verse say that it does and I expanded on it to say God is waiting, delaying judgement untill every Christian has been saved, so that he get the maximum glory out of his creation.

 

[Anto9us]

Rom 2:14

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Rom 2:16

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

-----------

I don't know if the above passage can relate at all to the question of " can a 'natural man' do any good or whatever -- not sure...

Actually, perhaps all "natural men", "secular humanists", or ANYONE WHO IS NOT OF THE ELECT should not be in this thread...

 

[CodyFaith]

Without freewill there is no justice.

 

[Anto9us]

If God is sovereign, does that mean IT IS GOD'S WILL whenever the

"but man has free will" argument arises,

and that these discussions have been preordained by Him?

I am off to a meeting where God will be talked about -- maybe even by people who might not be OF THE ELECT.

I'll be careful, and watch out for that Secular Humanism if I can.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Saying that God has a divine plan completely negates any concept of free will we might have.

 

[Albion]

Without freewill there is no justice.

If you never sin but still are sent to hell, you could say that. Is this likely?

 

[Hammster]

The problem comes from two issues.

a) the Roman Catholic judicial interpretation of the fall, and
b) A misinterpretation of man's fallen condition of depravity = absolute incapability (hence Total Depravity)

Now they had a motive, and it was to set themselves up as the sole source of truth and salvation, which was NOT of Christ. To accept that salvation DEPENDS on man's will or choice is not taught if one looks at the whole counsel of God's word but neither is it taught therein that man has no part in the process (salvation is an entirely a "by grace" process, not a single event in temporal time. God owes no man anything because all have sinned).

When God initiates the opportunity with man to do it right (via the Spirit or the word) it is His sovereign plan that man must respond appropriately "through faith" (John 1:12; Acts 2:38; Revelations 3:20).

I will give you one example from Genesis. In the story of Cain God audibly speaks to Cain before he chooses to kill Abel. Even though Cain had not brought the appropriate sacrifice (without blood there nis no remission)...none the less He does not condemn Cain but sincerely offers him a choice (if you go and do it right will it also not go well with thee?). He even forewarns Cain that if he does not then sin lays at the door waiting to rule over him.

Now the Lord foreknew exactly what Cain would choose to do (because after Genesis 3:5 we desire to be our own lord) but the choice had to be his for the judgment to be just. God did NOT make Cain choose, otherwise the promise/warning was a lie, and God is NOT a man that He should lie.

Are you going to address the OP at any time in this thread? If not, please start whatever discussion you are trying to have in a different Thread.

Thanks.

 

[Tolworth John]

Is coming to saving faith a spiritual endeavor? Does it glorify God?

Yes.

 

[Hammster]

You ask is God pleased by people seeking him.
Well the verse say that it does and I expanded on it to say God is waiting, delaying judgement untill every Christian has been saved, so that he get the maximum glory out of his creation.

Okay. So seeking God is pleasing. That we can agree on.

Can the natural man please God? I would say no. Just to clarify, are you saying he can?

 

[CodyFaith]

If you never sin but still are sent to hell, you could say that. Is this likely?

We are responsible for our sin. There is no personal responsibility or accountability without free will.

We will be punished or rewarded justly on our moral character.

 

[Hammster]

Without freewill there is no justice.

That's cool. Care to address the OP?

 

[Hammster]

Rom 2:14

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Rom 2:16

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

-----------

I don't know if the above passage can relate at all to the question of " can a 'natural man' do any good or whatever -- not sure...

Actually, perhaps all "natural men", "secular humanists", or ANYONE WHO IS NOT OF THE ELECT should not be in this thread...

I don't see anything in those verses that say that the natural man can please God.

 

[CodyFaith]

That's cool. Care to address the OP?

"Thats cool" - language very suited for an administrator on the site.