The Double Message of Eternal Security.

[1stcenturylady]

You see, grace states:
For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law( of righteousness) but under grace.
Rom6:14

Now if Paul teaches victory over sin by dying to a law of righteousness, why in the world would any true Christian object to that? Victory over sin is being preached. So why does this message offend?
Only one reason I can think of:

Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law.........

Phil3:9

Stu, Romans 6 actually says we die to sin, not to the law. We are not under the law BECAUSE we died to the sin that the law revealed. That is why we are not under the law. But, if we go back and sin, then it becomes our master again. And sin produces death. See, these verses.

Romans 6:2 "How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?"

Romans 6:14-15 "14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

The reason we have died to sin is because that is what the Holy Spirit does. He gives us power over sin. All of a sudden we hate sin, and love righteousness through obedience to Christ's words. We love those we couldn't love before.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Stu, Romans 6 actually says we die to sin, not to the law. We are not under the law BECAUSE we died to the sin that the law revealed. That is why we are not under the law. But, if we go back and sin, then it becomes our master again. And sin produces death. See, these verses.

Romans 6:2 "How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?"

Romans 6:14-15 "14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

The reason we have died to sin is because that is what the Holy Spirit does. He gives us power over sin. All of a sudden we hate sin, and love righteousness through obedience to Christ's words. We love those we couldn't love before.

So in order not to be under the law we must first perfectly obey the law/ not commit sin?
Doesn't sound right to me.
You can be dead to the desire to happily and wilfully commit sin. You are not dead to actually committing sin. Only on the internet do I hear people claiming to be sinless.
If you say a person can only be in grace providing they obey the law, they must live their life under a law of righteousness. That opposes Pauls core message

 

[stuart lawrence]

So why do so many struggle to accept the grace Paul preached?

Well some genuinely cannot understand a message that states you have no righteousness of observing the law. All they can see is, God hates sin and the Christian cannot live a casual sinfull lifestyle, happy sinning as much as they want. And if you remove a law of righteousness that gives the believer a licence to sin.
But others wilfully resist grace, for they want a righteousness of their own under the law, they want credit for attaining heaven. The sin of pride.

Of course, no truly born again Christian can view the removal of a law of righteousness as a licence to sin. They have chosen their master, Christ. For the true convert, the removal of a law of righteousness brings such gratitude and love for God that is not otherwise possible. They obey out of love and gratitude for a free salvation. That is what God wants of course, not attempted obedience driven by the fear of hell of you dont. No love in that I'm afraid

 

[stuart lawrence]

Paul wrote:

To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy
1cor1:2

That's clear enough.

Brothers I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly, mere infants in Christ
1cor3:1

That's clear too.

You are still worldly. For since there is still jealousy and quarrelling among you, are you not worldly?
1cor3:3

That's clear too.

It seems, reading some comments in this debate people believe Paul was wrong to refer to the people in Corinth as the church of God and brothers. As clearly they still committed sin, they should have been referred to as the un saved. They were not dead to sin in respect of not committing any sin

 

[stuart lawrence]

In certain denominations, much more than others, they take selective verses of scripture and build doctrines on them whilst negating many others. The true message is then not understood. The heart of the message is not known. The Bible needs to be read as a cohesive whole. Many of the churches most guilty of this, are those who passionately believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today.
Sadly, Christian counsellors have to spend much time with many who have been to these churches and ended up consumed by sin. For they never understood the true message.
One Christian counsellor told me these people suffer spiritual abuse.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A person who minimizes sin and who thinks God's grace is a license to sin on some level shows where their heart truly lies. Their allegiance is not to the Lord but to themselves and what they desire. For God never wants us to sin or do evil because He is holy and righteous. Also, God is more powerful than any man's sin nature. God can help any person overcome their sin in this life.

For to justify sin is true spiritual abuse.



...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ex OSAS proponents have testified in being set free from sin after they stopped believing in Eternal Security.

But what about those people who did not overcome their sin and were frustrated and or in fear of God and believe in Conditional Salvation? Well, they are not employing God's promises within His Word to put sin out of their life. They are either trying to do things their own way or they are destroyed for lack of knowledge. For the Scriptures say God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

Some want to take the easy way out.
So they then get off the narrow road and take the wide gate path.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

The one who minimises sin is the one who says they only commit little sins so they will be ok under a law of righteousness.
The humble person with their heart in the correct place knows they cannot be justified by observing a law of righteousness with any sin. They cling to Christ and praise him for the righteousness he gave them

 

[stuart lawrence]

It is worth remembering, that more than once Jason has stated if he believed no law of righteousness existed he would feel free to sin as much as he wanted.
As the law God desires you to keep is in the Christians heart, one wonders how he could make such a statement. For what is in your heart you in your heart want to follow.
Also, if he only wants to obey God out of fear of hell if he doesn't, where is the love for God in that? No one seeks to wilfully offend the one they love.

 

[stuart lawrence]

If people refuse to accept a message as to how sin is overcome by the person who wrote half the books of the NT, they won't accept anything anyone else says.
All they will do is ramble on, oblivious to anything anyone tells them

 

[stuart lawrence]

Blind guides leading the blind, both will fall into a ditch

 

[Rajni]

It is worth remembering, that more than once Jason has stated if he believed no law of righteousness existed he would feel free to sin as much as he wanted.

Maybe that’s the silver lining in the ECT doctrine. Since there are those for whom this belief is the only thing keeping them from inflicting chaos on the people around them, and public safety is the more immediate concern given that salvation was already taken care of through Christ, I say let 'em believe in it if it keeps them in line. Like a metaphorical straitjacket.


-

 

[1stcenturylady]

So in order not to be under the law we must first perfectly obey the law/ not commit sin?
Doesn't sound right to me.
You can be dead to the desire to happily and wilfully commit sin. You are not dead to actually committing sin. Only on the internet do I hear people claiming to be sinless.
If you say a person can only be in grace providing they obey the law, they must live their life under a law of righteousness. That opposes Pauls core message

For what reason did Christ give us His Spirit to walk in? To be carnal, or to be righteous?

 

[stuart lawrence]

For what reason did Christ give us His Spirit to walk in? To be carnal, or to be righteous?

As i have previously told you. Paul states, overcoming sin hinges on not living under a righteousness if observing the law. You don't understand Pauls message, for you say righteousness hinges on perfectly obeying the law. For:
Sin is the transgression of the law.

And as I have also previously told you, the Holy Spirit cannot help you if you refuse the truth of the message repeatedly stated by the person who wrote half the books of the NT.
Proof of this is in the fact the vast majority of people who end up seeking help from Christian counsellors due to the state they get in, had been to churches that preach the Holy Spirit much, and the gifts of the Spirit for today. Evangelical/ pentecostal/ holiness churches

 

[1stcenturylady]

As i have previously told you. Paul states, overcoming sin hinges on not living under a righteousness if observing the law. You don't understand Pauls message, for you say righteousness hinges on perfectly obeying the law. For:
Sin is the transgression of the law.

And as I have also previously told you, the Holy Spirit cannot help you if you refuse the truth of the message repeatedly stated by the person who wrote half the books of the NT.
Proof of this is in the fact the vast majority of people who end up seeking help from Christian counsellors due to the state they get in, had been to churches that preach the Holy Spirit much, and the gifts of the Spirit for today. Evangelical/ pentecostal/ holiness churches

Don't be concerned about me. I'm perfectly happy not having a desire to sin.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Don't be concerned about me. I'm perfectly happy not having a desire to sin.

All Christians in their hearts want to obey God, for that is where his laws have been placed

 

[1stcenturylady]

All Christians in their hearts want to obey God, for that is where his laws have been placed

Of course. By whom? The Holy Spirit. Therefore, if we walk in the Spirit we are not yielding to the flesh, for Romans 8:9 says we are not in the flesh if we have Christ's Spirit. I think we agree on that don't we?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Of course. By whom? The Holy Spirit. Therefore, if we walk in the Spirit we are not yielding to the flesh, for Romans 8:9 says we are not in the flesh if we have Christ's Spirit. I think we agree on that don't we?

No Christian perfectly follows after the holy spirit every minute of their lives. That's the reality. I deal in reality

 

[1stcenturylady]

No Christian perfectly follows after the holy spirit every minute of their lives. That's the reality. I deal in reality

1 Corinthians 15:31, Paul said "I die daily. That's on us to do.

James 4:7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

It takes practice.

 

[stuart lawrence]

1 Corinthians 15:31, Paul said "I die daily. That's on us to do.

James 4:7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

It takes practice.

As i said. The reality is, no Christian perfectly follows after the holy spirit every minute of their life