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Featured The Double Message of Eternal Security.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jun 23, 2017.

  1. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I hope Jason keeps plugging along, preaching the same thing the apostles did for a long, long time.

    Your post here seems to put Jesus as your scapegoat, so you can live with an invisibility cloak over sewage. That is NOT the gospel. Jesus died to cleanse us from not only our sin, but the DESIRE to sin. We are dead to sin because we have been given Christ's Spirit to walk in. We have the power of God working in us.
     
  2. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law
    Rom3:20

    Jason says:

    Righteousness for the Christian is observing the law/ Commandments. 1,050 of them
     
  3. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Right. I agree. It is only by the Holy Spirit we receive AFTER becoming Christ's do we receive power over sin. Roman 3:20 is talking Old Covenant. The Spirit is New Covenant.
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But you do not truly believe you have to love God to be saved, though.
    You either believe serious sin does not separate a believer from God or you believe no believer has any free will anymore after accepting Christ and they will be mindless love slaves that sin on occasion. Both of these views in Eternal Security is a doctrine of immorality or hate towards God. No real change has been made between the former old man and the new man.
    It says we WERE sometimes foolish and disobedient. WERE. I bolded and highlighted it for you. It means something that is in the past. Fight with the word all you like. It is there in your Bible.

    So you do not believe Jesus was sent in the past at one point in time? Verse 4 says "after the kindness of the love of God our Savior toward man APPEARED." This is a one time event. That is what it means when it says "appeared." Let me give you an example. The cat appeared in the room and started to cry for milk. Is the cat still appearing? No. It is a one time past event when I use the word "appeared." Verse 5 says "he saved us." This is past tense. His loving kindness appeared and "He saved us." Putting these two verses together it is saying (a) His loving kindness appeared and (b) He saved us. This is a one time event in the past. So it is talking about Initial Salvation.

    Before you said this is not initial salvation and now you are saying it is a one time event. Please make up your mind. Is not this one time event an entrance of salvation?

    Yes, a one time event of His mercy of forgiving of us when we accept Him (Initial Salvation).
    Afer the Sanctification of the Spirit (Initial Salvation) it then leads to obedience (Continued Salvation).

    For Peter tells us that the sanctification of the Spirit is for obedience.
    For 1 Peter 1:2 ABPE says,
    "by sanctification of The Spirit, for obedience."

    Being MADE heirs. Again, one time event. I MADE cookies. It is not, I MAKING cookies. Also, when you read Titus 3:7, you also have to read these little gems, too.

    "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

    Now, you can either ignore this verse or you can seek to change what it says plainly.

    Yes, Christ is our Initial and Ultimate salvation. We continue to trust and believe in Him as our Savior. If we stumble, we get clean through Jesus Christ by repenting or confessing our sin and not by doing a work. But if we are in Christ (Who is the source of our salvation) then good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in our lives because He lives inside of us.

    Nowhere is Paul saying that we can be saved in this life by being unfruitful and unholy.
    Paul says that you can deny God by a lack of works (See Titus 1:16).
    Paul says that those who do certain sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, and drunkenness, etc. will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21), (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) (Ephesians 5:3-5) (Colossians 3:5-7).

    When Paul is saying we are not saved by works of righteousness that we have done, He is talking about Initial Salvation and Ultimate Salvation. We did not have to do a work to first initially get saved and we do not have to rely strictly on works alone to save us as we continue in the faith. This does not mean works does not play a part in the salvation process as we walk with God. For the works being done in the believer's life are the works of the Lord. God does not just save us from our past sins by doing a one time prayer and by us having a belief alone. God also saves us from our life of sin, too. God transforms our lives for the better and not for the worse. This is what the washing and renewing of the Holy Ghost part is for. If a believer is truly washed and regenerated they will be a new creature in Christ.

    When you read John 3:16 you also have to read the "Condemnation" in John 3:19-21 that says,

    19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

    Did you catch what it said?

    All who do evil hate the light unless their deeds should be reproved.
    If a believer is doing evil or sin they are actually hating the light (Who is Jesus) and they are not loving Him. Unless of course they are reproved of their evil deeds and they repent before their advocate Jesus Christ (Also see 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9).

    Now, your just wearing OSAS glasses and ignoring the context.

    Looking back at Titus 2, it says this about good works.

    6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
    7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
    8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you." (Titus 2:6-8).

    Verse 7 says we are to have a pattern of good works and then it describes what these good works are.

    He that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4).
    All who do evil hate the light (John 3:20).
    He that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8).

    It is true James was not talking about the Old Law in James chapter 2. James was talking about the "Royal Law" (James 2:8). This is the law of love. John says, "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." (1 John 4:8). So if you break God's law of love in one point, you are guilty of breaking all of them. For James was talking about the condemnation of respect of persons in the beginning of James 2. He was saying it was not loving to respect the man with the rich looking clothing and yet not respect the poor man in their fellowship. He said that if they were to do this, it would be as if they were breaking all of God's laws on love (i.e. the Royal Law or the Law of Love).

    Anyways, please be well.
    And may God bless you, Daniel.

    With loving kindness to you in Christ,

    Sincerely,

    ~ Jason.


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    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  5. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Rom3:20 is speaking of the law.
    In rom ch7 Paul explains that, includes: thou shalt not covet, one of the TC.
    Jason states we are under a law of righteousness concerning: Thou shalt not covet
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Please. Let's try not to act like your version of Soteriology is superior when it is clearly flawed both biblically and morally. You cannot convince me to believe in a doctrine that condones sin and evil. You can plead to your blue in the face. It will not change anything. If there is one thing I hate more in this world, it is the belief of Eternal Security. Why? Because Eternal Security was a tactic that was used by the devil himself in the very beginning. The Devil said to Eve, "yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

    I did not know you are God to know my life so well.
    With man, obeying the righteous ways of the Lord on their own power is impossible, but with God, all things are possible (See Matthew 19:16-30).

    Actually, no. The Bible testifies against your belief in Eternal Security.

    In Romans 7:24,
    Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee and not as a Christian.
    This is evident by the fact that he says he is sold under sin in Romans 7:14 and yet he says in Romans 8:2 that he is free from sin.

    Romans 6 says, shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul says God forbid.
    (Romans 6:1-2).

    In Revelation 3:17,
    God calls a particular church "wretched." This is serious because Christ says if they are lukewarm, He will spew them out of his mouth. Christ tells them to repent.

    Please read this article here:
    Our righteousness is like filthy rags due to our INIQUITIES – Isaiah 64:6

    Verse please.

    Not really. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 says in the last days perilous times will come and men will have a form of Godliness and deny the power thereof. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. If you lived in Noah's day and you heard Noah's preach on righteousness, you could say the same thing to him and yet be wrong because only 8 people were saved on the Ark and the rest of the world was destroyed because they were wicked. So you cannot walk by sight, but you have to walk by faith.

    We get a clearer picture of Christ's imputation of righteousness in 1 John 1:7. It says,

    "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

    But I do not see how the statement of "cleaving to the Lord" in Acts of the Apostles 11:23 works in the Eternal Security belief. It preaches another message that says that a believer can sin and still be saved (on some level), too. This would not be "cleaving to the Lord."


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  7. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Um no. Rom 8:2 doesn't say Paul was free from sin. Twisting scripture to such a degree is- not good!

    Because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
    (Romans 8:2).

    Paul says he is free from the law of sin and death.
    The law brought sin and death to him.
    He is free from this sin that the Law brought to him.

    "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14).



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    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  9. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Then people try to defend twisting scripture. That compounds the error!
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Why is it called the Law of sin and death?
    Did not this Law bring sin and death to him?
    Why call it a a law of sin and death if it did not bring sin and death upon him?



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  11. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    It is easier for some to keep trying to defend twisting scripture than Admitting to error
     
  12. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    This is the problem of course. In my experience, in more than forty years of attending various churches, those who are most adamant you must obey the law to be righteous, least reflect what Christ termed the higher points of the law in their lives.
    It is driven by pride, hence they seldom, if ever admit to error
     
  13. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    The law of sin and death is righteousness of observing the law. Condemnation for failing to observe the law/sin. Hence the law of sin and death.

    And as paul repeatedly states. The Christian is not under the law of sin and death, for:
    Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth
    Rom10:4
     
  14. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    The law of the Spirit of life is the fruits of the Spirit. Against this fruit there is no law( gal5:23)
     
  15. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    The more the fruits of the Spirit grow in you, the more you live as God desires you to. For they are the embodiment of how God wants you to live. And they bring you into no conflict with God's good and holy laws.
    This is very different from the law of sin and death which states:
    Look to the letter of the law, obey it, or death results.
    That is the law of sin and death
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Anyone who believes in Jesus is free from the Law of Moses.

    "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:" (Romans 8:3).

    Which law could not do? The New Covenant Law or the Old Covenant Law?
    Obviously this would be the Old Covenant Law seeing the New Testament Scriptures were still being formed at the time of this letter by Paul.

    This law also was weak and God sent his only Son to condemn sin in the flesh.
    Does it say that Jesus was sent to condemn just the Law?
    No. It says that the Son was sent to condemn sin in the flesh.
    Jesus was sent to condemn sin.



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  17. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Which law could not do???

    The OC law of Torah not applicable under NC law could be FAULTLESSLY OBEYED. It was the moral law that could not do!!

    If people claim the moral law is not part of NC law they must be Antinomian.

    Still no Admitting to error I see.
    It's just too hard for those who earnestly seek a law of righteousness
     
  18. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    .
     
  19. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Why oh why did Paul give one of the TC/ moral law as the example of why he had to die to the law of righteousness
    He said:

    Concerning legalistic righteousness ( I was)faultless
    Phil3:6

    I know you will never admit to error here Jason. But do you really want to go through life refusing to accept such plain facts from Pauls words?
    Earnestly preaching error is a hard cross to bear. You ultimately suffer
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So you believe in Antinomianism?

    Anyways, I have already been over this dead horse with you and we have beat it many times already. I keep pointing you to Ephesians 5:5 and you just ignore it.

    Paul's struggle with the good part (or the righteous aspect of the Old Law that has carried on over into the New Covenant). This good part or righteous aspect of the Old law is mentioned in Romans 8:3-4. We see a similar description of this righteous aspect of the Old Law wrapped in the New in Romans 13:8-10.

    This is why you are confused.
    You are trying to label the Law in Romans 7:14-24 as being a part of the Old Law still when that is not the case.
    Yes, it is true, the Law in Romans 7:14-24 is both an OT Law and NT Law when looking at the whole course of human history.
    Yet, Paul is not saying he is not under the NT law of not coveting (See Ephesians 5:5).
    Coveting is an NT Law now.
    It is not an exclusive OT Law anymore.
    For the Old Law has passed away.
    Not all Law.
    For if all Law passed away, then nobody could technically sin or break God's laws.


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    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
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