Salvation?

[ladodgers6]

Only in Adam. and only Adam's one sin, which we do NOT inherit...
Our death IS the result of THAT ONE sin...
We inherit Adam's death...
Our sin is our own...
With or without Adam's sin, we inherit death...
From Adam to Moses, death ruled WITHOUT Adam's sin... Rom 5:14
And all died.
For all inherited Adam's death...
But Adam's sin they did NOT inherit...

Arsenios

I beg to differ as you already know. You limit only one evil that we inherit; death. We inherit both evils, sin & death. I am curious to ask you this. Why do you limit only death to us? Why not Adam's sin? The reason why I ask is that you acknowledge that death IS the result of that One Act of Sin. So why do the rest of rest get death, when we did not SIN? For the wages of sin is Death.

Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death...

Why is our death the result of that ONE SIN? We did not sin. You said our personal sins are separate from Adam's. But yet we receive the death sentence from Adam's personal sin? This does not make any sense. Then you said with or without Adam's sin, we inherit death? Which is it? This is getting more confusing.

 

[ladodgers6]

That's all society - lawless, pernicious, death dealing, fatal, separate from God.

I beg to differ. The Civil Law for example is enforced to keep order. The Moral Law is to keep sin in check.

 

[ladodgers6]

So do you agree that men are born dead in Adam and upon this death all have sinned?

Arsenios

I believe that in Adam we all sinned and died. Adam like the Last Adam are federal heads that represent their people. Like how believers are in Union with Christ. Non-believers are in Union with the Old Man Adam. That's why Paul makes the contrast between them. One caused condemnation for all of us through sin. And the other caused justification through righteousness.

 

[Wordkeeper]

It is much better to deal with the facts presented in the Bible then to start making analogies that confuse the subject. But you keep inserting other analogies that have nothing to do with Adam.

So what am I to do?

Adam was told not to become mentally competent, have the ability to tell good from evil, because he had not finished the process of subduing his body through fellowship with God.

Now, because of Christ work of reconciliation, we can finish the process of putting to death the deeds of the body through the Spirit.

What's so difficult to understand about that?

 

[Arsenios]

You limit only one evil that we inherit; death.

Death encompasses all sin... All sin results in death...

We inherit both evils, sin & death.

I can show you death in a new-born...
Can YOU show me his or her SIN???

I am curious to ask you this. Why do you limit only death to us? Why not Adam's sin? The reason why I ask is that you acknowledge that death IS the result of that One Act of Sin. So why do the rest of rest get death, when we did not SIN? For the wages of sin is Death.

We get death from Adam because he died when he sinned and only AFTER that sin did he conceive by his seed...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death...

We 'earn' the death we have inherited by sinning,
for "upon this death all have sinned..."

Why is our death the result of that ONE SIN? We did not sin.

Read the following very S-L-O-W-L-Y...

5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of him that was to come.

You said our personal sins are separate from Adam's.

Indeed so!

But yet we receive the death sentence from Adam's personal sin?

Adam is the Old Man...
He is dead...
He was born dead...
Save his life and you will lose YOUR life...
Lose his life so as to find YOUR life in Christ...

We did not receive the death sentence...
We received the opportunity for repentance!

Arsenios

This does not make any sense. Then you said with or without Adam's sin, we inherit death? Which is it? This is getting more confusing.

Re-read the following very S-L-O-W-L-Y...

5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of him that was to come.

Your confusion is with Scripture, not with me.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Adam was told not to become mentally competent, have the ability to tell good from evil, because he had not finished the process of subduing his body through fellowship with God.

Now, because of Christ work of reconciliation, we can finish the process of putting to death the deeds of the body through the Spirit.

What's so difficult to understand about that?

Please include scripture. Adam did not know evil until after the fall.

Your mental competence stuff is not even Biblical so let's stick to Biblical concepts about Adam.

Try getting through one concept before many others. It only confuses the issue.

Now your scripture that Adam know good from evil before the fall and could distinguish evil? Because Adam did not know evil.

 

[ladodgers6]

Please include scripture. Adam did not know evil until after the fall.

Your mental competence stuff is not even Biblical so let's stick to Biblical concepts about Adam.

Try getting through one concept before many others. It only confuses the issue.

Now your scripture that Adam know good from evil before the fall and could distinguish evil? Because Adam did not know evil.

Okay then, how was Adam created? Did Adam have a free will to choose either way or not? Let's see if you answer these questions or avoid them as usual.

 

[Arsenios]

Okay then, how was Adam created? Did Adam have a free will to choose either way or not? Let's see if you answer these questions or avoid them as usual.

My brother, this is a heartless reply!

Try encouragement and Joy in the Lord!!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Okay then, how was Adam created?

God made us behemothic males out of DIRT!

Eve, on the other had, He made out of living flesh,
which explains, btw, the natural superiority of women over men!

Did Adam have a free will to choose either way or not?

No choice in how he was made at all - He is God's creation... He is not his OWN creation...

You may now say: AMEN!!

Let's see if you answer these questions or avoid them as usual.

This remark demonstrates how it is that men were made out of dirt!

I mean, c'mon, Los Angeles!

Arsenios

 

[Wordkeeper]

Please include scripture. Adam did not know evil until after the fall.

Your mental competence stuff is not even Biblical so let's stick to Biblical concepts about Adam.

Try getting through one concept before many others. It only confuses the issue.

Now your scripture that Adam know good from evil before the fall and could distinguish evil? Because Adam did not know evil.

What is the fall?


It is the change in the state of humanity.


Man could be with God, could progress from being unsubdued to subdued through the holy spirit.


This was because he was not culpable. To be culpable a person must know what he is doing. Simple common sense.


God intended for man to know right from wrong but after he subdued his body.


However Adam jumped the gun.


As a result he knew right from wrong but he was stuck with his unsubdued body.


As soon as he knew right from wrong he became culpable and transgressed. The wages of sin is death and Adam died, was separated from God who is the source of spiritual life. Because no impure person can see God.


God removed Adam from His presence for his own safety. If Adam had remained in God's presence he would have died.


However, God continued to complete His plan of having a human family who would become what He had originally had in mind, who would all become like Jesus.

 

[ladodgers6]

My brother, this is a heartless reply!

Try encouragement and Joy in the Lord!!

Arsenios

Thanks, your right. I am sorry.

 

[ladodgers6]

God made us behemothic males out of DIRT!

Eve, on the other had, He made out of living flesh,
which explains, btw, the natural superiority of women over men!

If you do not want to discuss it further, I will understand. I feel you are just toying with me. Because Adam was more than just dirt, he was given position over God's creation to rule over. He was a High Priest in charge of protecting the Garden temple against evil. He was given authority to multiply and spread God's glory throughout the earth. But if I am wasting your time, please do not hesitate to tell me. I will not be offended, I like you. And learned a lot from you. Thanks again dear friend.

No choice in how he was made at all - He is God's creation... He is not his OWN creation...

You may now say: AMEN!!

This presents a problem. If Adam did not possess a will of contrary choice. Then that makes God the author of evil. Now if you do not want to get into the details of it. I understand. No problem. I thank you for the discussion and the information you have provided.

This remark demonstrates how it is that men were made out of dirt!

I mean, c'mon, Los Angeles!

Arsenios

I am dirt Arsenios, I am a wretched sinner justified in Christ. I am sorry for offending you or anyone. This is a forum of debate. Why other people get nasty and avoid questions is beyond me. I believe I did not insult anyone. Just pointing out the obvious, that's all. I hope that you have understood that about me. I want to thank you again because I have learned more in our conversations on the EOC position. Hope we can remain friends and continue our talks on it.

 

[ladodgers6]

My brother, this is a heartless reply!

Try encouragement and Joy in the Lord!!

Arsenios

Dear Friend Arsenios, hope you will forgive me. I see that it bother you. Hope you understand that I did not intend to offend anyone. Though I am not naïve that people will get offended because I am a Classical Reformed Calvinist. Just wanted to clear that up.

 

[Arsenios]

This presents a problem. If Adam did not possess a "will of contrary choice". Then that makes God the author of evil. Now if you do not want to get into the details of it. I understand. No problem. I thank you for the discussion and the information you have provided.

The issue does not begin here, with whatever a "will of contrary choice" might be...
Nor does it begin in the Garden...
It began with the fall of Lucifer into pride...
This prior to the creation of man...
The creation of man in the Garden...
Is a consequence of Lucifer's Fall...
Man created in God's Icon/Image...
Created in Freedom...

Arsenios

 

[ladodgers6]

The issue does not begin here, with whatever a "will of contrary choice" might be...
Nor does it begin in the Garden...
It began with the fall of Lucifer into pride...
This prior to the creation of man...
The creation of man in the Garden...
Is a consequence of Lucifer's Fall...
Man created in God's Icon/Image...
Created in Freedom...

Arsenios

But Scripture gives very little of Lucifer's account. But we have Adam & Eve's account. Where Adam is placed in the Garden Temple to Rule over it. He is a High Priest to guard this Temple against evil. God gives His commandments as constitution for His people. Adam was also to multiply the earth with God's people to spread His glory through out the planet.

 

[Arsenios]

But Scripture gives very little of Lucifer's account. But we have Adam & Eve's account. Where Adam is placed in the Garden Temple to Rule over it. He is a High Priest to guard this Temple against evil. God gives His commandments as constitution for His people. Adam was also to multiply the earth with God's people to spread His glory through out the planet.

The point of the Luciferean defection as the beginning is that God created Adam as a reply to the "Great Satan"... He created a deceivable Adam and Eve, especially through Eve... But remember, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good AND evil was planted in the CENTER of the Garden, with the Tree of Life... Without the Fall of Lucifer, there would have been no need for that Tree to even BE in the Garden, and the need for the Garden of Paradaise is even called into question.

Similarly, had Adam not sinned, there would be no need for Christ to suffer and die on the Cross for us, because we would be without sin. The Church teaches that Christ would STILL have incarnated so as to raise us up to the Glory of God by our becoming one with Him in His human nature... That was the plan, you see... To elevate man to God-ness - This is the Marriage of the Lamb... The Love of the Bridegroom for the Bride is the Love of Christ for man who had fallen... First, through Baptism, he needed to be cleansed of all the sins he had ever committed... Then he needed to be Sealed in the Anointing of the Holy Spirit, the Christing of Man with Holy Chrism, which follows upon the purity found after emerging from the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration...

THEN come the trials - Christ emerged, the Dove abode upon Him, and he went straightway into the Desert for 40 days of prayer and fasting, and then temptations... We follow Christ - As Paul writes, we run the Race set before us... The big trials come AFTER we cross the Jordan into the Promised Land by Baptism into Christ...

Salvation for the mature in the Faith of Christ is ontological union with Christ, and the workings of the Saints are miraculous indeed. To claim maturity without the works that are Christ's is to claim without possession that which one does not have... That great Grace is total oneness with God walking the earth here and now... We have such in the Orthodox Faith in every generation - not many... The discipling of such as these is known only in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ on this earth...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Dear Friend Arsenios, hope you will forgive me.

My brother, I forgave you before you wrote those harsh words...

I see that it bothers you.

My care is only for the welfare of your soul -
Such words wound the soul that utters them...
I did not say them for ANY other reason...

Hope you understand that I did not intend to offend anyone.

I know - They just came out while you were typing...
People here are praying for you...

Though I am not naïve that people will get offended because I am a Classical Reformed Calvinist.

Some, perhaps...

Just wanted to clear that up.

The waters [tears] of repentance are easily muddied...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I feel you are just toying with me.

I do tend to be playful and joyful in my words...

Because Adam was more than just dirt,

Do you not know WHY Adam was formed from the dirt? Do you not know why moistened dirt, HUMus, is the basis of the very term and understanding of HUMility...

Psalm 103:14
For he knoweth whereof we are made;
He hath remembered that we are dust.

Without tears of repentance, we are but dust
with no rich and loamy earth in our souls...
And the Sower will find no joy in us...
Demons do not weep...

He was given position over God's creation to rule over.
He was a High Priest in charge of protecting the Garden temple against evil.
He was given authority to multiply and spread God's glory throughout the earth.

So tell me then, what is the God-intended place for man in the Cosmos after he grows up in the
Garden and begins his God-intended labors for the Kosmos?

I like you. And learned a lot from you. Thanks again dear friend.

I would like to be able to call you by some name other than ladodgers...
There is something unholy about that name...
Dodging bullets as you change lanes on the LA Freeway!

My name is Arsenios - I would like to meet you here!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

But Scripture gives very little of Lucifer's account. But we have Adam & Eve's account. Where Adam is placed in the Garden Temple to Rule over it. He is a High Priest to guard this Temple against evil. God gives His commandments as constitution for His people. Adam was also to multiply the earth with God's people to spread His glory through out the planet.

Scripture gives us little - We know that Adam was NOT mature in the Garden - Which is why he was IN the Garden, and not outside it... He was to keep vigil there, and tend the Garden... We really do not know exactly what that means - He did name the animals, which is a big deal... Children are good with animals... Usually, at least... I suppose one might say that his falling for the lie of the Serpent was his failure in keeping vigil... But what he wanted was to be AS God IS... And in this desire, he believed a lie...

Arsenios

 

[ladodgers6]

The point of the Luciferean defection as the beginning is that God created Adam as a reply to the "Great Satan"... He created a deceivable Adam and Eve, especially through Eve... But remember, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good AND evil was planted in the CENTER of the Garden, with the Tree of Life... Without the Fall of Lucifer, there would have been no need for that Tree to even BE in the Garden, and the need for the Garden of Paradaise is even called into question.

Similarly, had Adam not sinned, there would be no need for Christ to suffer and die on the Cross for us, because we would be without sin. The Church teaches that Christ would STILL have incarnated so as to raise us up to the Glory of God by our becoming one with Him in His human nature... That was the plan, you see... To elevate man to God-ness - This is the Marriage of the Lamb... The Love of the Bridegroom for the Bride is the Love of Christ for man who had fallen... First, through Baptism, he needed to be cleansed of all the sins he had ever committed... Then he needed to be Sealed in the Anointing of the Holy Spirit, the Christing of Man with Holy Chrism, which follows upon the purity found after emerging from the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration...

THEN come the trials - Christ emerged, the Dove abode upon Him, and he went straightway into the Desert for 40 days of prayer and fasting, and then temptations... We follow Christ - As Paul writes, we run the Race set before us... The big trials come AFTER we cross the Jordan into the Promised Land by Baptism into Christ...

Salvation for the mature in the Faith of Christ is ontological union with Christ, and the workings of the Saints are miraculous indeed. To claim maturity without the works that are Christ's is to claim without possession that which one does not have... That great Grace is total oneness with God walking the earth here and now... We have such in the Orthodox Faith in every generation - not many... The discipling of such as these is known only in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ on this earth...

Arsenios

Thanks Arsenios for your comments. I am cautious about certain topics, where Scripture reveals little or none. I am speaking for myself here. I do not like speculating about certain or wandering further into certain subjects Like Lucifer's Fall & Predestination. I do believe that Satan fell due to pride, and I also believe in predestination; that God is omnipotent. But I agree with Calvin that we need to be cautious or we will get lost in that great labyrinth.

Sorry I am not trying to make accuses or avoid your questions. I just do not fell comfortable discussing them. Hope you understand. But thanks your presenting your position. I really appreciate it.