Can you be saved without Christ?

[Waggles]

A man once asked the Prophet what he could do to obtain salvation, as he found fasting and praying difficult.

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
Mark 12:28-34

 

[Waggles]

@Muslim-UK
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mark 12:31
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren.
He that loves not his brother abides in death.
15 Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life
abiding in him.
1 John 3:14-15

So where does that leave all those so-called Islamic radicals and extremists who have been promised
72 virgins in paradise because they have committed Jihad against infidels (usually their neighbours)?

 

[Rajni]

And in a rather odd twist, at least in Christianity, if that in which we put our faith were to appear as an indisputable fact, then we would no longer be believing on faith, which evidently disqualifies it as faith per se. I've encountered this rationale in past discussions about the prospect of post-mortem conversion, where it's argued that if a perrson's belief in God only comes after seeing Him face-to-face, then it doesn't count towards salvation, because it was supposed to be faith that saves, and at that point it's just fact.

Aaaaaaand bam! Here's an example of what I'm talking about that was posted just today in another thread:

This is not correct. The Bible says that every knee shall bow. It's just that for many, it will be too late.

Of course all souls will be knowledgeable and accepting of God's worthy rule of the universe and unmatched righteousness.

The deal is..........it's by faith. Satan doesn't need faith to believe all the abilities and attributes of God..... but I do.

A person, seconds after death, will know all they need to know to be unable to be saved by faith.

You don't get to choose the lottery ticket numbers after they are drawn.

This life is where you make your choice, so, choose wisely.

 

[dcalling]

What Jesus pbuh was given superseded the Torah, what Muhammad pbuh received superseded all previous Scriptures. We are told the Jews and Christians are people of the book and to believe in what was originally given to them. This is because despite alterations, God's word is still to be found within the pages.

The core message of Moses and Jesus pbut is found in the Qur'an; worship God alone, do good works and obey the commandments. Islam is nothing new, it doesn't claim to be, it's merely a continuation of previous Scripture with the only differences being, the previous messages were for a certain people for a certain time, whereas Islam is for all people until the end of days and God will stop the message from being corrupted:

15:9 Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).

Qur'an means The Recitation. It was recited out aloud, and the Companions memorised it, passing it onto hundreds of more people, which is why all Muslims recite the same Qur'an no matter where in the World they're from.

I hope this helps.

I am interested in learning how you stand on Torah and Gospel.
For example, if Islam is nothing new, then does Torah/Gospel contain all of Quran? If Islam is nothing new, then why is Torah and Gospel for a certain time and certain people? Do you believe that the world of God is incorruptible all the time or just certain times? Also, the Gospel confirms Torah (most Christians claim Torah is authentic), do you think Quran confirms Torah and Gospel in the current form?

 

[dcalling]

Hi,
The core message of Islam is nothing new, that is correct. As the final revelation from God it is a complete way of life prescribed for believers, covering everything from worship of God to building communities and Nations. Every aspect of life is covered.

This is where it differentiates from the previous Scriptures as they were for a certain period of time in History. Matthew 15:24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

If God chooses to preserve His word, then none can change it. The Qur'an explains who was responsible for preserving previous Scriptures see the buildup and relevant verse (5:48) below;

And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, "I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakah and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allah a goodly loan, I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way." Qur'an 5:12

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good. Qur'an 5:13

And of the Injeel, (partly found amongst the pages of the NT)..

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do. Qur'an 5:14

How can the people of the previous Scriptures redeem themselves?....

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book. Qur'an 5:15

Those trusted with preserving the Scriptures:

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers. Qur'an 5:44

The Qur'an nor the teachings of the Prophet pbuh confirm what you have today in the form of the Bible as being from Allah swt in it's original unaltered form. The Qu'ran is the guardian over previous Scriptures:

And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ. Qur'an 5:48

And finally:

Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith. Qur'an 5:68

Surah Al-Ma'idah [5]

Non Muslim Scholars over the past 200+ years have written extensively on the evolution of the Bible, and the majority consensus is, the original texts are lost.

Well, to people who really want to follow the teachings of God, it is not the word of scholars that you should listen but the scripture, I think you would agree on that.

And from the several quoted text from Quran, none said the original text are lost, which seems to be an invention from the scholars over Quran.

What it says from your quote of the Quran are, that the Jews forget some, and they distorted from the propoer usage. So they have the original just they distort the teaching. Same as Christians, and they only forgot part... None of which said the original are lost.

The question now will be, are you going to trust the Quran or the scholars? Do you think the Quran is unreadable without those scholars? Is it more important to you the Quran or the explanations of the scholars? Remember in Quran it says Allah is the best deceiver, so all of us should strive to learn the world of God, to try to understand it, and not to trust scholars/rabbies/pastors/imams and instead trust God and his word.

 

[habibii zahra]

Christians claim everlasting life is ONLY granted to those who accept Jesus pbuh as Lord and Saviour, but is this doctrine the result of the early Church splitting in the First Century and later theological doctrines that emerged over Hundreds of years?

Judaism teaches;

"All your nation is righteous, they will inherit the earth eternally; the shoot that I have planted, the work of My hands, something to be proud of" (Isaiah 60:21).

One has to be righteous, not sinless, for no man that has ever been created was sinless. We all stumble and the righteous get back up and keep going:

Proverbs 24:16: "The righteous fall even seven times and still get up, but the wicked stumble in evil."

There is no person on earth so righteous that he does only good and never sins" (Eccl. 7:20)

"Open the gates, so that the righteous nation that keeps the faith may enter" (Isaiah 26:2).

Jews become righteous by following the Torah to the best of their abilities and getting back up when they stumble;

Those who lead a life of sin can also find salvation for the wicked who repent are no longer called wicked:

Even when I have told the wicked that he will die, but then he repents, and he does justice and righteousness; he returns the collateral when he is supposed to, he repays what he stole, he begins to live by the Laws of Life, and does not do evil, he will live, and he will not die. All the sins that he committed will not be held against him, for he has begun to do judgment and righteousness; he shall surely live.
-- Ezekiel 33:14-16

No Prophet ever came to the Jews and rebuked them for not accepting Jesus pbuh as saviour.

Now Christians try to evangelise Jews and Jews strongly resist these attempts. The Qur'an says on this matter;

The Jews say "The Christians have nothing [true] to stand on," and the Christians say, "The Jews have nothing to stand on," although they [both] recite the Scripture. Thus the polytheists speak the same as their words. But Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ. Qur'an 2:113

Muslims obtain salvation by following the Qur'an and authentic traditions of the final Prophet of Allah swt. We have 6 articles of faith:

To believe God and his Oneness
To believe in all the Prophets found in the Tawrat, Injeel, Zabur, (Psalms) and Qur'an
To believe in all the previous Scriptures in their original forms
To believe in the Angels and the unseen
To believe in the Afterlife including Hell, Paradise and the Day of Judgement
To believe in Predestination

From Adam to John the Baptist pbut people did not require belief in Jesus pbuh as saviour.
The family of Jesus pbuh and early the Christians who initially remained in Jerusalem acted on his teachings, by following them they had a chance to obtain salvation.

Later teachers taught salvation was gained by making Jesus pbuh the focus of worship. This later group won the hearts and minds of the powerful Roman rulers. Much of the focus of Pagan worship was rebranded over time and Christianity became the dominant religion of the vast Empire.

Islam like its sister religion Judaism makes it clear worship is for God alone, and one must repent and turn back to God for salvation. Nobody is without sin and the Devil ever ready to pounce and mislead, so cling to the rope of God by regular prayers, fasting, giving charity and doing good deeds. A man once asked the Prophet what he could do to obtain salvation, as he found fasting and praying difficult. The Prophet told him to guard that which was between his legs and that which was between his jaws.

Ultimately it is for God to pardon his righteous servants; as a minimum to stand any chance of avoiding the hell fire, we should acknowledge Him alone, do good and be kind to one another.

“Those who remember God (always, and in prayers) standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and think deeply about the creation of the heavens and the earth, (saying), "Our Lord! You have not created (all) this without purpose, glory to You! (Exalted are You above all that they associate with You as partners). Give us salvation from the torment of the Fire.” (Quran 3:191)

For Salvation, our trust should be placed in the Creator, not the created:

Qur'an 9:30-31
"...the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?"

"They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him."

for us there is two things to reach salvation: to believe in god and to do good deeds

 

[Chesterton]

You haven't understood the context:

starting at verse 56:
And if only they upheld [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to them from their Lord, they would have consumed [provision] from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them are a moderate community, but many of them - evil is that which they do.

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.

The Jews and Christians were exhorted to hold fast to the Torah, Bible AND THE QUR'AN.

The Qur'an states that it is also meant for the children of Israel...

Qur'an 27:76-77 Verily, this Qur'an explains to the Children of Israel most of that concerning which they differ. And verily it is a guidance and a mercy for the believers.

Elsewhere the Qur'an explains the previous Scriptures have been corrupted.

But for the Torah and Gospel there are only two choices for which to observe - those that exist today, or those which were impossible to observe because they didn't exist at the time.

Yes they would have long been dead, but these Christian and Jews of Arabia would have been able to confirm God indeed speaks to a chosen Prophet from amongst the people. The verses leading up to 10:94 explain who Moses pbuh was, how he escaped Pharaoh and went on to receive revelation from Allah swt.

10:95 removes any doubt;

"And never be of those who deny the signs of Allah and [thus] be among the losers."

Angel Gabriel pbuh appearing to anyone is a clear sign, God is trying to convey his message.

You're saying that God speaking to a prophet is the only thing meant to be confirmed? Well that does make sense, but it seems like it's talking about confirming other parts of revelation when it says "If you are in doubt about what We revealed to you".

Abrogation is well recorded in our traditions. We know the first Muslims were told not to pray whilst intoxicated, thereafter as their faith increased, they were completely banned from drinking alcohol. Goats are welcome to what's been abrogated, whether it's a saying of the Prophet pbuh or a verse of the Qur'an, this is because these incidents happened whilst the Prophet pbuh was still alive, and in his final year the Angel Gabriel went through the complete Qur'an including the order of verses twice.

But there are many abrogated parts which are still in the Koran. If goats are welcome to them, does that mean you could remove them and the Koran would still be complete and perfect?

And how do we know what the goat ate was abrogated? Do we know what those verses said? And were those verses abrogated that were lost at that one battle (I forget the name).

 

[dcalling]

You follow Scholars and this is easy to prove. Do you understand Jesus pbuh to be equal to Allah swt?

They are not equal. They are different (yet the same on their accord)

This is a new question and is answered:

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it… Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. Quran 2:75,79

Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few. Qur'an 4:46

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased. Qur'an 3:187

Surah 10:94

And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.

So the Quran itself said if in doubt, even Muhammad can ask the Jews/Christians to confirm. There are people who willingly distort the message, but God's message is undistortable, not in the time of Torah, not in the time of Gospel. Jesus never said anything about Torah is corrupted.

And recall what the Final Messenger of Allah swt said,

Narrated Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!" Bukhari Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461

Same as above, if the Quran itself asked Muhammad to confirm with people of the book, and yet you are claiming the Gospel/Torah are mostly lost, are you willingly going against Quran or are you claiming Quran is in conflict?

Produce the originals Scriptures if you are truthful.

I trust my scriptures, I trust the printed scriptures are in the best conditions God want them to be, that its message is not corrupted for thousands of years as the word of God is incorruptable, at any given time if you want to learn the word of God you will be able to.

The explanation from Allah swt and his Apostle pbuh is clear.

It is very clean in Quran but I am not sure why you keep claiming Gospel/Torah is mostly corrupt, Jesus didn't say that, Muhammad didn't say that, Quran confirms Gospel/Torah.

Verse reference please so I can check the context.

Here are the verses of reference that Allah deceives from Quran. Read the word of God carefully, don't be deceived by the scholars.
Qur'an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers.

Qur'an 7:99—Are they then safe from Allah's deception? No one feels safe from Allah's deception except those that shall perish.

Qur'an 8:30—And (remember) when the unbelievers plotted deception against you (O Muhammad), to imprison you, or kill you, or expel you. They plotted deception, but Allah also plotted deception; and Allah is the best of deceivers.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Can you be saved without Christ?

No.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Where is this prophesied in the OT? or were the chosen people not told about it?

That's like saying Nehemiah never existed because he's not mentioned in Genesis.

 

[Phil 1:21]

You gave a emphatic 'No' to can you be saved without Jesus [CHRIST]. Show me where the Jews are explained this.

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"

 

[Waggles]

Nobody can personally verify or prove any of their stories or dogmas, and it seems futile to me to debate whether one set of dogmas is more or less true than another set of dogmas.

Jesus said that true believers would receive the indwelling Spirit of truth who would teach every
disciple the things of God.
Jesus went on also to state:
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mark 16:15-18

And these signs are still happening when people believe and obey the full gospel of salvation as
written in their New Testaments.
It is called the Pentecostal experience and gospel. Signs, miracles and wonders verify the truth
of Jesus and our faith in him as Lord and Saviour.

 

[Chesterton]

So at the time of the Prophet pbuh, Allah swt is telling the Jews and Christians to come to truth for the reasons given. They weren't following the truth, they were just blindly following the religion of their forefathers. Now that you are reading the verses and having them explained, so too it becomes a choice for you, because Allah swt is just and never punishes those who knew no better.

I don't see what that has to do with what I said.

The context starts by briefly explaining what happened to the Israelites when they left slavery and entered freedom, then received revelation from a string of Prophets. Thus Muhammad pbuh if you are in doubt ask them, and we know after his first Revelation, he was comforted by his wife Khadijah, (may God be pleased with her). She then took him to her cousin Waraqah the Christian Monk, who confirmed the entity being described was the Angel Gabriel pbuh.

Full Hadith as narrated years later by Aisha
Hadith - Book of Revelation - Sahih al-Bukhari - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

See my response above at post number 162 to dcalling to dispel any notion the Jews were to teach or confirm everything being revealed.

That seems like a yes and a no at the same time.

List the abrogated parts and bring evidence showing they're not meant to be there.

You seem very knowledgeable so I think you know the answer, but just in case you don't, I'm reluctant to point it out. If you're under the impression that certain earlier verses are still in effect, that's a good thing and I'd rather we leave it that way.

Because Angel Gabriel pbuh recited the complete Qur'an with the Prophet pbuh in his final year, not once but twice. The Prophet would always then go to the Mosque and explain the Qur'an and it's recitation to his Companions:

Narrated Abu-Huraira:

Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet (ﷺ) once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he died. The Prophet (ﷺ) used to stay in I`tikaf for ten days every year (in the month of Ramadan), but in the year of his death, he stayed in *I`tikaf for twenty days.

*I'tikaf is when some Muslims usually spend the last 10 days of Ramadan devoted to worship at the Mosque.

Hadith - Book of Virtues of the Qur'an - Sahih al-Bukhari - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Issue of the goat eating verses is a weak Hadith. Aisha ra was a Qur'an memoriser, she lived for decades after the Prophet's death and would have known if anything was missing from the Qur'an along with the many other memorisers:

Myth of Qur'anic verses eaten by a goat

From the link immediately above, there is a part which says: "But other narrations prove that a commandment was revealed about stoning but the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did not allow it to be written as a part of the Qur’an implying that it was not meant to be Qur’an integral part." It sounds like Muhammad had authority to pick and choose from divine revelations. How could that be?

The battle you refer to is that of Yamama where heavy casualties were suffered by Qur'an memorisers. To prevent any of the Qur'an being lost Abu Bakr ra the Khalifa was strongly advised to have the written material collected from the various companions and the Qur'an be compiled into a single book or risk it being lost.

"Abu Bakr who said, `Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it."
Hadith - Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)) - Sahih al-Bukhari - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Oh, okay. I thought I'd read somewhere that some qurra' had been lost there.

 

[ananda]

Jesus said that true believers would receive the indwelling Spirit of truth who would teach every
disciple the things of God.
Jesus went on also to state:
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mark 16:15-18

And these signs are still happening when people believe and obey the full gospel of salvation as
written in their New Testaments.
It is called the Pentecostal experience and gospel. Signs, miracles and wonders verify the truth
of Jesus and our faith in him as Lord and Saviour.

I would question:

1. Do these allegedly genuine disciples also "drink any deadly thing" and aren't hurt?
2. If such signs, miracles, and wonders do exist, how do they verify that Jesus is Almighty/Eternal, and not simply an extremely powerful, but nonetheless limited heavenly being?

 

[dcalling]

This is not a mainstream Christian view. You will have to explain who you worship and who you understand Jesus pbuh and the Holy Spirit pbuh to be.

It does not matter what mainstream this and that think, as Jesus said the road to heaven is tiny and the road to hell is wide. I only trust scripture, John 14:9 "Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

Those are the word of God, or what God want to let us know.

The context starts by briefly explaining what happened to the Israelites when they left slavery and entered freedom, then received revelation from a string of Prophets. Thus Muhammad pbuh if you are in doubt ask them, and we know after his first Revelation, he was comforted by his wife Khadijah, (may God be pleased with her). She then took him to her cousin Waraqah the Christian Monk, who confirmed the entity being described was the Angel Gabriel pbuh.

Fine let's put this in context of Quran. Nothing about Waraqahj is mentioned in Quran, here are the full text from 93 to 94
And We had certainty settled the Children of Israel in an agreeable settlement and provided them with good things. And they did not differ until [after] knowledge had come to them. Indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ
So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

Here it is very clear, Quran said Isreal got good things and the next verse Quran asked Muhammad if in doubt go ask. Does this sound like the Torah/Gospel is corrupted at all?

Full Hadith as narrated years later by Aisha
Hadith - Book of Revelation - Sahih al-Bukhari - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Misunderstanding on your part. I gave you the evidence in post 162 and have now explained the context of verse 10:94

Which version of the Bible do you use? And could you please post Mark 1:1 for me. It's the earliest of the Synoptic Gospels.

Version of Bible does not matter, the word of God will not corrupt. God will over see that, who can defeat God? Mark 1:1 basically says there are good new about Jesus, son of God.

I posted the references from the Qur'an and Hadiths.

again, this is what Muhammad pbuh said;

Narrated Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!" Bukhari Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461

Jesus pbuh utterly condemned the Scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 23 - King James Version

First, that is ahaidth, less secure than Quran, and it is word of Muhammad and not Quran. You don't held the (possible) word of Muhammad above Quran. Quran asks Muhammad to confirm his doubt with people of the book, Quran said Jews should be judeged by Torah and Christians by Gospel.

What did Moses pbuh predict would happen after his death?

"27 For I know your rebellion and your stubbornness; behold, while I am still alive with you today, you have been rebellious against the Lord; how much more, then, after my death? 28 Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth to witness against them. 29 For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands.” Deuteronomy 31:27-29

What did the Scribes them say:

"How can you say, 'We [The Jews] are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

Scholars for the past 200+ years have told us the originals are lost and no one can be sure what we have today has been preserved. There are anonymous, fabricated and disputed books and letters in the NT. Church History shows this and there are many many books available on the subject and youtube debates between Scholars.

Again, you are putting the word of scholars above God.

If you wanted to prove your truthfulness, you would have posted the verse in Arabic rather than use a translation of the meaning of the verse.

I looked at 53 different translations of the meaning of the Qur'an, not one uses the word 'deceiver'.

وَمَڪَرُواْ وَمَڪَرَ ٱللَّهُ‌ۖ وَٱللَّهُ خَيۡرُ ٱلۡمَـٰكِرِينَ

Transliteration: Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena

Can you see the negative and positive connotations above? Does this perhaps explain why the majority of translators have used:

"for God is above all schemers." "and Allah is the best of schemers." "and the best of planners is Allah."

Others use the word plotter, schemer, divisor.

Yet you manage to come up with deceiver. Could you please show me what translation you're using?


Again look at the Arabic, post the translation you're using, then I'll give you the context and correct translation, insha'Allah

That is fine, Allah is the best of schemers/plotter, same meaning, there are verse in Quran says Allah will leads non-believers astray. So if you read Quran which confirms the Torah and Gospel overwhelmingly, and yet you choose not to believe, you became a non-believer and got lead astray by either Allah or those scholars (whos word you value over scriptures)

Think about it, God keeps his word straight, even when Jews invented their own book (oral Torah, or some other non-canon books), they were easily picked off, and Jesus never said anything about Torah been corrupt.

Here you are claiming (against all scriptures) that God can't keep his word uncorrupted, that between the 600 years between Jesus and Muhammad God's word are corrupt, that the Torah/Gospel God askes Muhamad to confirm his doubts are corrupt (which was finalized 300 years before Muhammad), that Quran said Jews/Christians are judged under are mostly corrupt.

There is nothing like aborgation in Christianity or Judaism, Jesus said "Heaven and earth will pass away but never the word of God" Matt 24:35. Youself said Islam is nothing new (good instinct, Christianity has nothing new over Judism either), yet you quote something about "been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest", Do you trust the scholars or your own scripture?

 

[Chesterton]

Ok let me explain, you said, "But for the Torah and Gospel there are only two choices for which to observe - those that exist today, or those which were impossible to observe because they didn't exist at the time." They have existed in written form over 1,000 years from when they were initially revealed, as was certainly the case with the Torah. The Gospel from revelation to being recorded in written separate Gospels took 150+ years, with a complete NT appearing 320+ years from revelation to Jesus pbuh. You have to study Church History and read about disputed texts. Read the material left out of the Bible and assess the truthfulness of all the different authors of the NT.

You're wrong about the dates and texts. Anyway that's irrevelant to the discussion. You're avoiding the question about how Christians in the 7th century were supposed to observe scriptures which did not exist in the 7th century (even if I pretend they ever existed at all).

If that's what you think, then you should study what Biblical Scholarship has been saying for the past 200 years on the matter.

I don't think biblical scholars discuss the Koran much if they're biblical scholars.

It was a saying of the Prophet pbuh and never intended to be part of the Qur'an. It forms part of the Hadith literature. The proof is the following Hadith;

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said to them: 'Who is the most learned of the Law among you?'. They replied, 'so and so Al-A'war (i.e. Abdullah bin Souriya)'. He was called upon and he came. So the Prophet (pbuh) said: 'Are you the most learned of the Law among them?' He said, 'Jews think so.' So the Prophet (pbuh) said to him; 'By Allah and by the Law that He gave Moses on the day at Sinai, (tell me) what you find in the Law regarding adulterers?' He said: 'O Abul Qasim (i.e. Prophet), they stone the despicable (adulterer), and make the rich (if he does it) sit on the camel, blacken his face and make him face camel's back and stone the despicable if he commits adultery with a rich woman and they do the same to her.' So (again) the Prophet (pbuh) said to him: 'By Allah and by the Law that He gave Moses on the day at Sinai, (tell me) what you find in the Law?' He started to beat around the bush and the Prophet (pbuh) urged him by Allah and by the Law that He gave Moses on the day at Sinai till he said: 'O Abul Qasim, 'When a married man or woman commit adultery stone them.' So the Prophet (pbuh) said: 'It is like that, take them (the Jews who committed adultery) and stone them.' (Tafsir Ibn Jarir Al-Tabari 10/328 Narration 11976)

Okay, it's just that when it says "narrations prove that a commandment was revealed" it sounds like it was revealed, and not just a saying of Muhammad.

 

[Chesterton]

I explained the context from the verse you posted in 153:Can you be saved without Christ?

Sura 5:68 (Al-Maida) - "Say: 'People of the Book (Christians and Jews), you stand for nothing until you observe the Torah and the Injil and that which is revealed to you from your Lord."

So the Jews and Christians hearing this and other verses understand perfectly well, Torah and Injeel were a light and guidance, but now the Prophet you were expecting has come, follow him and the Qur'an or stand on nothing and be amongst the losers.

In responding to another poster, you said blind faith has no place in Islam. Doesn't it require a lot of blind faith in these lost writings for which there's no evidence whatsoever they ever existed?

I was talking about Biblical Scholars who study the NT Manuscripts and confirm there have been many problems with the originals lost to history. What you have today can not be shown be true to the First Century revelation.

What historians confirm is that the Gospels are among the best evidenced accounts for anything in all of ancient history.

 

[dcalling]

This is following blindly.

Who is this man recording the words of the Prophet pbuh?
What's his name?
What's known about him?
Was he trustworthy?
What do his peers say about him?

The one I quoted are from John/Mark/Matt, and yes they are trust worthy. Do you know Christians in the first 3 centuries died for their cause willingly? They survived under the fierst persucations, most of the 12 dicispals died for their cause, and yet the triumphed, because of God. I read the NT and OT, and NT confirms OT, and NT/OT are on the same accord. Their message does not conflict, and it show the nature of God, loving, just, all mighty.

The word of God triumphed over Roman empires, and it is confirmed.
Look at Quran 3:55,
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

Do you deny that that those who follow Jesus were made superior and their word lasted?

Is this narration trustworthy? How many other people report the same saying of the Prophet pbuh?

Why do you need so many people when Quran confirms?

The KJV says, 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The NIV says, 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

The NSRV says 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

Isn't they all the same?

Which version?
If it's Begotten as per the KJV, then who's the Heavenly Queen?
Is Jesus pbuh a son of God or His Only Son?

Does God needs a Queen to have a son?
Even Muhammad knows that if God wants a son God can certainly get it. Just Muhammad denies God needs a son. In Christianity we are all children of God and we are all brothers in that sense.

What was he to ask them? Consider the following when you respond:

O you who were given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [to Muhammad], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the sabbath-breakers. And ever is the decree of Allah accomplished. Qur'an 4:47

And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away - then know that upon Our Messenger is only [the responsibility for] clear notification. Qur'an 5:92

Narrated Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!" (Bukhari Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)

The Quran verse you have clearly said what sent to Muhammad confirming to what is with us. What Ubaidullah said conflicts with the verses.

Also what's a Sabbath in Islam? Do you know what a Sabbath is in OT?

The 4th Century NT just says Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | Mark |

Looks like men entrusted to look after the Scriptures are able to defeat God.

Why do you declare God is defeated? there are good reasons to have son of God added consider it appears in the text else where, and there were multiple versions, see Does Mark 1:1 Call Jesus 'God’s Son’? A Brief Text-Critical Note

It's a sound Hadith and not the only one, taken with the verses in the Qur'an and what studies on the NT tell us, I reject the NT as anything more than a selection of weak and fabricated hadiths. I accept only that which enjoins good, and that which conforms with the Qur'an. It's for you to convince me otherwise by providing evidence, as blind following is forbidden.

So we examine the context and see who Allah swt is planning against.

In the Bible we read;

Jeremiah 4:10
Then I said, "Ah, Sovereign LORD, how completely you have deceived (nasha) this people and Jerusalem by saying, 'You will have peace,' when the sword is at our throats."

The word for deceived here is nasha, which means...
1) to beguile, deceive

a) (Niphal) to be beguiled

b) (Hiphil) to beguile, deceive

c) (Qal) utterly (infinitive)

Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/5/1144094423-2544.html

We have to examine the context to see who God is deceiving in the Bible in this and other verses.

You're free will is what leads you astray. Choosing to ignore the evidence and following what your forefathers followed leads you astray. This is why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the West especially amongst educated women.

Man's free will will lead them astray, that is why we have scripture. Now if you insist on follow your forefathers, trust in their interpretation blindly without thinking (according to you that is forbidden), you will stay astray. Why trust those so called shoolars when Quan verses clearly shows differ.

Was Jesus pbuh ever in a position to challenge or change things? Did he condemn the Scribes? Yes absolutely in the whole chapter 23 of Matthew.

Yes Jesus did condemn the Scribes, they did the same thing as many of your trusted scholars did, they choose to follow the scripture in they way they feel is comfortable, distort certain verses, ignore the original meaning God applied. Instead of loving people as God intended, they choose to follow the law in very strict ways to show that they are obedient to God. For example they will not carry trash on Sabbath but don't help the widows and orphan.

The evidence shows it's been changed. The early Christians followed Jesus pbuh not Pauline Christianity. Were they following a different Gospel?

The earliest Christians just study OT and word of mouth on Jesus' teachings. Did Muhammad or Quran every mention one single word that Paul is not to be trusted? If they did you will have a much stronger case. Instead, Quran/Muahmmad give very detailed things about what not to do, including not to worship Jesus/Mary/God as 3 God, but no mention of Paul at all, instead it says let Christians be judged by Gospel, which is formed 300 years before Quran, which include Paul's letters, that neither Quran/Muhammad said one word on. Do you think Muhammad don't know Paul? If you truely believe in him you will believe that he knows all about Paul, and your claims are inventions.

The core message of Islam is nothing new, affirm GOD is One, worship Him alone, do good works and keep the commandments. If you do this, then success is guaranteed, God willing.

According to Christianity, the above is not enough, no one can keep the commandments. You must acknowledge you are a sinner, repent your sins, because none is worthy of God, and without grace of God no matter how many good works you do you can't be saved, and the only way to God is to follow God (which God set up Jesus Christ as the only worthy example), to love God, love others just like yourself, and invite God to save you.

 

[GeorgeTwo]

Christians claim everlasting life is ONLY granted to those who accept Jesus pbuh as Lord and Saviour, but is this doctrine the result of the early Church splitting in the First Century and later theological doctrines that emerged over Hundreds of years?

Judaism teaches;

"All your nation is righteous, they will inherit the earth eternally; the shoot that I have planted, the work of My hands, something to be proud of" (Isaiah 60:21).

One has to be righteous, not sinless, for no man that has ever been created was sinless. We all stumble and the righteous get back up and keep going:

Proverbs 24:16: "The righteous fall even seven times and still get up, but the wicked stumble in evil."

There is no person on earth so righteous that he does only good and never sins" (Eccl. 7:20)

"Open the gates, so that the righteous nation that keeps the faith may enter" (Isaiah 26:2).

Jews become righteous by following the Torah to the best of their abilities and getting back up when they stumble;

Those who lead a life of sin can also find salvation for the wicked who repent are no longer called wicked:

Even when I have told the wicked that he will die, but then he repents, and he does justice and righteousness; he returns the collateral when he is supposed to, he repays what he stole, he begins to live by the Laws of Life, and does not do evil, he will live, and he will not die. All the sins that he committed will not be held against him, for he has begun to do judgment and righteousness; he shall surely live.
-- Ezekiel 33:14-16

No Prophet ever came to the Jews and rebuked them for not accepting Jesus pbuh as saviour.

Now Christians try to evangelise Jews and Jews strongly resist these attempts. The Qur'an says on this matter;

The Jews say "The Christians have nothing [true] to stand on," and the Christians say, "The Jews have nothing to stand on," although they [both] recite the Scripture. Thus the polytheists speak the same as their words. But Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ. Qur'an 2:113

Muslims obtain salvation by following the Qur'an and authentic traditions of the final Prophet of Allah swt. We have 6 articles of faith:

To believe God and his Oneness
To believe in all the Prophets found in the Tawrat, Injeel, Zabur, (Psalms) and Qur'an
To believe in all the previous Scriptures in their original forms
To believe in the Angels and the unseen
To believe in the Afterlife including Hell, Paradise and the Day of Judgement
To believe in Predestination

From Adam to John the Baptist pbut people did not require belief in Jesus pbuh as saviour.
The family of Jesus pbuh and early the Christians who initially remained in Jerusalem acted on his teachings, by following them they had a chance to obtain salvation.

Later teachers taught salvation was gained by making Jesus pbuh the focus of worship. This later group won the hearts and minds of the powerful Roman rulers. Much of the focus of Pagan worship was rebranded over time and Christianity became the dominant religion of the vast Empire.

Islam like its sister religion Judaism makes it clear worship is for God alone, and one must repent and turn back to God for salvation. Nobody is without sin and the Devil ever ready to pounce and mislead, so cling to the rope of God by regular prayers, fasting, giving charity and doing good deeds. A man once asked the Prophet what he could do to obtain salvation, as he found fasting and praying difficult. The Prophet told him to guard that which was between his legs and that which was between his jaws.

Ultimately it is for God to pardon his righteous servants; as a minimum to stand any chance of avoiding the hell fire, we should acknowledge Him alone, do good and be kind to one another.

“Those who remember God (always, and in prayers) standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and think deeply about the creation of the heavens and the earth, (saying), "Our Lord! You have not created (all) this without purpose, glory to You! (Exalted are You above all that they associate with You as partners). Give us salvation from the torment of the Fire.” (Quran 3:191)

For Salvation, our trust should be placed in the Creator, not the created:

Qur'an 9:30-31
"...the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?"

"They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him."

John 3:16; For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

Acts 4: 12There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.”

You don't believe Jesus was sinless?

"I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'There is none born among the off-spring of Adam, but Satan touches it. A child therefore, cries loudly at the time of birth because of the touch of Satan, EXCEPT MARY AND HER CHILD."

We worship one God and one God only.

 

[GeorgeTwo]

Ok John who? Mark who, Matthew who? Why is it these Gospels were written by anonymous authors, several in the case of John? Can you give me a verse from each proving the authorship?

So people belonging to any Religion being killed makes it true?


Their families and peers wrote about their deaths? Where can I read these for myself?

Complete opposites which is why Jews reject the NT. Loving, just and mighty are obvious characteristics of God, and the same in any religion.

The Romans were polytheists and happy to worship legends of old. The Sun God worshippers of the Roman Empire, replaced Mithras with a man called Jesus pbuh. The Sun God Mithras slayed a bull in whose blood people were made new. He was born Dec 25 and 3 wise men visited him. Mithraism was the religion practised by the Elite and high ranking people of the Roman Empire it also included many soldiers who were initiated into the cult. Temples existed under Churches for his followers, and we know to honour him Constantine changed the Day of the Sabbath with the blessings of Binitarian Eusebius.

First Sunday Law enacted by Emperor Constantine - March, 321 A.D.
“On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed.

The Roman Empire replaced the names of their idols with Saints associated with Christianity. The new faith absorbed pagan festivals of old, Winter Solstice, Easter etc

Eusebius said, Constantine's Court reflected the Heavenly Court.

Of course not, they were blessed and on the true path to success. They survived well into the 7th Century and we know what happened them.

Qur'an confirms Injeel and Tawrat and Zabur not Gospels according to x,y and z etc

Obviously not as beget suggests result of sexual union, and 'God gave his only son' to First Century followers would denote pious upstanding Messiah/Prophet.

why use the word begotten?


Every Religion teaches we are all children of God. That's a far cry from making a human equal with God though. The Torah lists people who were called son of God:

Ephraim is God's firstborn son. (Jeremiah 31:9)
Jacob is God's firstborn son. (Exodus 4:22)
Solomon is God's son (2 Samuel 7:13-14)
Adam is the son of God. (Luke 3:3
David is the Son of God. (Psalms 2:7)
Deuteronomy 14:1 "You are the sons of the LORD your God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave your forehead for the sake of the dead.
Psalm 82:6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.
Jeremiah 3:19 "Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father, And not turn away from following Me.'

God sends Moses to tell Pharaoh that "Israel is My son, My first-born" Exodus 4:22

First Century Christians understood Jesus pbuh being the son of God to mean, pious religious, god fearing person, a blessed Messiah, Prophet. They would be aghast if they knew what the Roman Empire did with their faith.

You ignore all the evidence shown and cling to this false notion. Show me the Arabic Torah and Injeel from the 7th Century then if you are truthful.

Friday - a religious day where shops and business close to enable the people to attend Mosque and listen to the weekly sermon, spend the day with their family remembering God.

Friday evening til Saturday evening, different customs, but I imagine, much like the Muslim day or the Christian day of Sabbath, Sunday.

So it was added. Can you provide a First Century Gospel of Mark so we can see what else has been added? We know the longer ending was added amongst other verses. Maybe people didn't mind changing the anonymous text because they knew it didn't come from God, but was rather the word of a non eyewitness, so why not improve upon it?

Scribes write Torah and Community rules. The verbal attack they receive in Matthew's Gospel goes well beyond carrying trash or helping the needy. Jesus pbuh is livid, absolutely seething with contempt. Had he Companions with conviction and a good following behind him, he would have no doubt told them everything that they did.

The Jews were expecting a Messiah. Can you post from the Torah two things;
Firstly, from which Tribe was he to descend from?
Secondly, what was he to accomplish when he arrived?

Just post Scripture for me to read. Thanks

We can see what the Injeel says when you bring a copy as mentioned above.

Judge by the Gospel? Show me, as it also says they stand on nothing unless they follow the Qur'an.

What do the scales represent in the Book of Revelation?

6:5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there was a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.

James the brother of Jesus pbuh, a man who grew up with him writes in James 2;

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b]works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The family of Jesus pbuh disagree with you.

Where is the original Qur'an? You don't have it.

Ok John who? Mark who, Matthew who? Why is it these Gospels were written by anonymous authors, several in the case of John? Can you give me a verse from each proving the authorship?

So people belonging to any Religion being killed makes it true?


Their families and peers wrote about their deaths? Where can I read these for myself?

Complete opposites which is why Jews reject the NT. Loving, just and mighty are obvious characteristics of God, and the same in any religion.

The Romans were polytheists and happy to worship legends of old. The Sun God worshippers of the Roman Empire, replaced Mithras with a man called Jesus pbuh. The Sun God Mithras slayed a bull in whose blood people were made new. He was born Dec 25 and 3 wise men visited him. Mithraism was the religion practised by the Elite and high ranking people of the Roman Empire it also included many soldiers who were initiated into the cult. Temples existed under Churches for his followers, and we know to honour him Constantine changed the Day of the Sabbath with the blessings of Binitarian Eusebius.

First Sunday Law enacted by Emperor Constantine - March, 321 A.D.
“On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed.

The Roman Empire replaced the names of their idols with Saints associated with Christianity. The new faith absorbed pagan festivals of old, Winter Solstice, Easter etc

Eusebius said, Constantine's Court reflected the Heavenly Court.

Of course not, they were blessed and on the true path to success. They survived well into the 7th Century and we know what happened them.

Qur'an confirms Injeel and Tawrat and Zabur not Gospels according to x,y and z etc

Obviously not as beget suggests result of sexual union, and 'God gave his only son' to First Century followers would denote pious upstanding Messiah/Prophet.

why use the word begotten?


Every Religion teaches we are all children of God. That's a far cry from making a human equal with God though. The Torah lists people who were called son of God:

Ephraim is God's firstborn son. (Jeremiah 31:9)
Jacob is God's firstborn son. (Exodus 4:22)
Solomon is God's son (2 Samuel 7:13-14)
Adam is the son of God. (Luke 3:3
David is the Son of God. (Psalms 2:7)
Deuteronomy 14:1 "You are the sons of the LORD your God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave your forehead for the sake of the dead.
Psalm 82:6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.
Jeremiah 3:19 "Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father, And not turn away from following Me.'

God sends Moses to tell Pharaoh that "Israel is My son, My first-born" Exodus 4:22

First Century Christians understood Jesus pbuh being the son of God to mean, pious religious, god fearing person, a blessed Messiah, Prophet. They would be aghast if they knew what the Roman Empire did with their faith.

You ignore all the evidence shown and cling to this false notion. Show me the Arabic Torah and Injeel from the 7th Century then if you are truthful.

Friday - a religious day where shops and business close to enable the people to attend Mosque and listen to the weekly sermon, spend the day with their family remembering God.

Friday evening til Saturday evening, different customs, but I imagine, much like the Muslim day or the Christian day of Sabbath, Sunday.

So it was added. Can you provide a First Century Gospel of Mark so we can see what else has been added? We know the longer ending was added amongst other verses. Maybe people didn't mind changing the anonymous text because they knew it didn't come from God, but was rather the word of a non eyewitness, so why not improve upon it?

Scribes write Torah and Community rules. The verbal attack they receive in Matthew's Gospel goes well beyond carrying trash or helping the needy. Jesus pbuh is livid, absolutely seething with contempt. Had he Companions with conviction and a good following behind him, he would have no doubt told them everything that they did.

The Jews were expecting a Messiah. Can you post from the Torah two things;
Firstly, from which Tribe was he to descend from?
Secondly, what was he to accomplish when he arrived?

Just post Scripture for me to read. Thanks

We can see what the Injeel says when you bring a copy as mentioned above.

Judge by the Gospel? Show me, as it also says they stand on nothing unless they follow the Qur'an.

What do the scales represent in the Book of Revelation?

6:5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there was a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.

James the brother of Jesus pbuh, a man who grew up with him writes in James 2;

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b]works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The family of Jesus pbuh disagree with you.

"For the most part the Gospel of John early circulated as part of one book. This book was not a scroll, as the first manuscripts doubtless were, but a 'codex', a book with separate leaves like ours, and sewn or glued on one side. It was known simply as "The Gospel," containing the four canonical Gospels. This "Gospel" was then divided into the parts that were thought to be "According to Matthew", "According to Mark", "According to Luke and "According to John."


"It is usually assumed that these traditional ascriptions of authorship were attached to the books not before AD 125. Recently, however, Martin Hengel has mounted a plausible defence of the view that these "titles" were attached to their respective individual books from the beginning i.e. the four canonical Gospels are no more anonymous than any other book with a title page that includes the name of the author." D.A. Carson, "The Gospel According to John.


Comments from JP Holding of Tektonics:


If the Gospels are anonymous, why is there no other surviving tradition of another author for the Gospels? Second-century testimony is unanimous in attributing the four Gospels to the persons that now carry their name. This suggests that they received their titles early; for if they had not, there would have been a great deal of speculation as to who had written them - "a variation of titles would have inevitably risen," as had happened with the apocryphal gospels. [Thie.EvJ, 15]; see also [Heng.Mark, 82] It is rather harder to believe that the Gospels circulated anonymously for 60 or more years and then someone finally thought to put authors on them -- and managed to get the whole church across the Roman Empire to agree!

 

[dcalling]

Ok John who? Mark who, Matthew who? Why is it these Gospels were written by anonymous authors, several in the case of John? Can you give me a verse from each proving the authorship?

So people belonging to any Religion being killed makes it true?


Their families and peers wrote about their deaths? Where can I read these for myself?

The apostle, they are not anonymous, and the scribes has led you to believe all the false claims. The question is do you trust your scripture or some "schalors"

Complete opposites which is why Jews reject the NT. Loving, just and mighty are obvious characteristics of God, and the same in any religion.

If they are complete opposites, why does Quran claims to confirm both of them? Think about that, do you really trust your own scripture?

The Romans were polytheists and happy to worship legends of old. The Sun God worshippers of the Roman Empire, replaced Mithras with a man called Jesus pbuh. The Sun God Mithras slayed a bull in whose blood people were made new. He was born Dec 25 and 3 wise men visited him. Mithraism was the religion practised by the Elite and high ranking people of the Roman Empire it also included many soldiers who were initiated into the cult. Temples existed under Churches for his followers, and we know to honour him Constantine changed the Day of the Sabbath with the blessings of Binitarian Eusebius.

First Sunday Law enacted by Emperor Constantine - March, 321 A.D.
“On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed.

The Roman Empire replaced the names of their idols with Saints associated with Christianity. The new faith absorbed pagan festivals of old, Winter Solstice, Easter etc

Eusebius said, Constantine's Court reflected the Heavenly Court.

Of course not, they were blessed and on the true path to success. They survived well into the 7th Century and we know what happened them.

Qur'an confirms Injeel and Tawrat and Zabur not Gospels according to x,y and z etc

So if what Christians held for 600 years and Jews help for thousands of years are all corrupt/lost/not trustable, why would God ask Muhammad to confirm his doubts with Christians/Jews? Why would Quran ask Christians to be judged by Gospel and jews by Torah?

Obviously not as beget suggests result of sexual union, and 'God gave his only son' to First Century followers would denote pious upstanding Messiah/Prophet.

why use the word begotten?

Every Religion teaches we are all children of God. That's a far cry from making a human equal with God though. The Torah lists people who were called son of God:

Ephraim is God's firstborn son. (Jeremiah 31:9)
Jacob is God's firstborn son. (Exodus 4:22)
Solomon is God's son (2 Samuel 7:13-14)
Adam is the son of God. (Luke 3:3
David is the Son of God. (Psalms 2:7)
Deuteronomy 14:1 "You are the sons of the LORD your God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave your forehead for the sake of the dead.
Psalm 82:6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.
Jeremiah 3:19 "Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father, And not turn away from following Me.'

God sends Moses to tell Pharaoh that "Israel is My son, My first-born" Exodus 4:22

First Century Christians understood Jesus pbuh being the son of God to mean, pious religious, god fearing person, a blessed Messiah, Prophet. They would be aghast if they knew what the Roman Empire did with their faith.

You actually got that part almost right. God is powerful and don't need a women for a son. In fact if God come and said you are my son, I am his son even thought I have a different biological father. God's word make things happen.

You ignore all the evidence shown and cling to this false notion. Show me the Arabic Torah and Injeel from the 7th Century then if you are truthful.

If you think the Torah/Gospel has changed (in any big way) between today and 7th century, I don't know what to say. There might be small differences (i.e. different old scripts that has a word there and here that does not affect the meaning), but over all they are the same, not just to 7th century, but to much eariler. One of the brest perserved is in ethitupia, by Abba Griama, carbon dated to between 300 and 650 AD, Griama went to ethiupia around 494 AD.

There are way too many old manual scripts available to suggest the Gospel were changed between 7th century and now. If you can refute all with evidence you will be famous.

Friday - a religious day where shops and business close to enable the people to attend Mosque and listen to the weekly sermon, spend the day with their family remembering God.

Friday evening til Saturday evening, different customs, but I imagine, much like the Muslim day or the Christian day of Sabbath, Sunday.

So it was added. Can you provide a First Century Gospel of Mark so we can see what else has been added? We know the longer ending was added amongst other verses. Maybe people didn't mind changing the anonymous text because they knew it didn't come from God, but was rather the word of a non eyewitness, so why not improve upon it?

Good luck provide a 600AD Quran. Do you know Quran is compiled after the death of Muhammad? and they have to burn a lot of unofficial copies? Do you trust that God will keep his word uncorrupt?

Scribes write Torah and Community rules. The verbal attack they receive in Matthew's Gospel goes well beyond carrying trash or helping the needy. Jesus pbuh is livid, absolutely seething with contempt. Had he Companions with conviction and a good following behind him, he would have no doubt told them everything that they did.

A real prophet will tell everything God says, not fearing for his/her life. Look at OT and all the prophets who died/inprisoned for telling the truth.

The Jews were expecting a Messiah. Can you post from the Torah two things;
Firstly, from which Tribe was he to descend from?
Secondly, what was he to accomplish when he arrived?

Just post Scripture for me to read. Thanks

Too many, Isiah 9:6-7
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end

Zecharia 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
righteous and having salvation is he,
humble and mounted on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

We can see what the Injeel says when you bring a copy as mentioned above.

Judge by the Gospel? Show me, as it also says they stand on nothing unless they follow the Qur'an.

What do the scales represent in the Book of Revelation?

6:5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there was a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.

James the brother of Jesus pbuh, a man who grew up with him writes in James 2;

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b]works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The family of Jesus pbuh disagree with you.

And the verse you are aksing for:
Surah 5:46:
And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
---- So clearly Jesus come and confirmed Torah, says nothing about Torah been corrupted.
5:47
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.
Quran didn't say that don't trust Paul/John/Matt etc. If you believe Muhammad is a prophet and knows all that, he would have said that, and God would have said that and it will be clear, just as Quran clearly states don't take Jesus/Mary/God as God. It didn't, and instead it said let Christians be judged by what God has showed us, which are the books. Do you believe Muhammad knows that the Gospel are written by John/Matt etc?

And, if you care about not following blindly, you would care about the scriptures been confirmable, i.e. if someone at time of Jesus come out and said they got new scritpture, how do you confirm it is from God? You have to compare it with Torah right? And if some one at Muhammad's time come out and said he got new scripture, you have to compare it to both NT and OT, just say this is new and best and aborgate what ever is in conflict is not good enough. God's word can't be abrogated, God does not change.

And you are right, faith without work is dead, but that is not because we need work, it is because if someone truely have faith, work will come out of him.

So in Islam, if a guy who did a lot of bad things repent his sin at end of life, does he get saved?

 

[GeorgeTwo]

Millions have it memorised. You should concentrate on the 'Muslims claim Bible is corrupted' thread.

You don't know if their memories were correct; you don't know what was left out or added because the variant Qur'ans were burned.

Evidence for this?
The letters in the NT were sent to different communities, the authors never thought they would later form part of the NT. The Gospels were written hundreds of miles apart. Mark had a Q document source, yet you claim he was Peter's Scribe? Later Matthew and Luke used Mark as a template. That rules Matthew out as a eyewitness, and we know luke confirms he is just passing on what others unnamed sources were saying. That leaves you with John. Perhaps you can show if he was an eyewitness in the other thread?

Let me know once his work has been peer reviewed by other Scholars, perhaps then if they agree, it will become the majority consensus. Until then pat Mr Carson on the back, a man who doesn't think the KJV is reliable:

King James Version Debate, The: A Plea for Realism: Amazon.co.uk: D. A. Carson: 9780801024276: Books

Actually there are. John is said to be very close to The Gospel according to Nicodemus, the Prologue of John is said to be lifted from the pages of Philo's work

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiq2crj_bHUAhXiL8AKHRrgADUQFgg4MAM&url=http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/57/57-4/JETS_57-4_715-26Vande%20Vrede.pdf&usg=AFQjCNExI8_33ImOuishOBJBJErxiDUrag&sig2=9oDTcfSpjN0pRO6YD5NE4Q
An Exegetical Study of The Prologue of John (John 1:1-18)

There were never any other suggested authors of the Gospels.

Oral and written sources were floating around in the First Century, likely sayings of Jesus pbuh and stories of his Ministry. Later Greeks starting with Mark used the two to pen a Gospel. Later editors added and changed as they saw necessary.

Nonsense.

Church History shows there were early Christians who preached different Gospels; these groups were persecuted and their books and letters banned by the Roman Empire. Those that opposed the Romans met with a swift exit.

Heretics.

This thread was about obtaining Salvation. I was hoping people could prove Christianity's answer could be found in the Torah, but no one has shown me yet. Instead people are appealing to the NT, hence last couple of pages questioning reliability of NT.

The New Testament is reliable as I have shown you.

The NT being unreliable further goes to show Christian concept of Salvation is without sound evidence, as such we should conclude, Yes you can be saved without Christ. Something Muslims and Jews already knew.

Jesus is the only way.

BTW, the Qur'an says that Allah and Muhammad are the only way.

Do I think the NT still contains the word of God; Yes but incorrect Doctrines have also crept into it.

The New Testament is the Word of God.

 

[dcalling]

I'm waiting for you to answer rather than sidetrack. The Qur'an says, previous Scripture has been corrupted and anyone who rejects the final revelation is amongst the losers.

Not a single verse in the Qur'an says, previous Scripture is preserved.

True, but most verses confirm the previous Scritpures are usable, can be used to judge people, not as you claimed mostly lost/corrupted. It does warn (just like NT and Torah) against fake scriptures, to that both the Christians and Jews did good job of distinguishing. The Jews checks prophets against their predications, so the fake ones are thrown out, and Christians can just check against OT.

You need to adjust your narrow lenses. What is the Qur'an confirming about the previous Scriptures?

The Torah says God is One >>>> This can be confirmed
NT says God is one in three >>>> This is condemned in the Qur'an

Name one sentence in NT that says God in one in three.

So what is the Qur'an confirming? Did the Jews and Christians of the time ponder on this, what did their discussions with the Prophet pbuh reveal, what did they understand from the overall message of the Qur'an? What does History tell us?
Confirm this story of Moses pbuh and his people as revealed by Allah swt to be true.
Confirm he is the Prophet described in the Torah and Injeel.
Confirm the message of Tawheed (Oneness of God) found in the Qur'an is correct.

Quran has to confirm the previous scritptures, since Quran said if Muhammad is in doubt, check wkith people of the book, Jews/Christians should be judged by their book. The Torah/Gospel has been confirmed for many many years at that time. It has to confirm the previous scripture since God's word won't change, God's word won't corrupt, God's word does not aborgate itself. Aborgate meaning confusing.

Judge by the Torah, yes what was the matter they wanted the Prophet pbuh to Judge? Do you know or are you again just concentrating on a single verse. What are they to judge, why were they rebuked?

Jesus is not rebuking the Torah, he is rebuking the actions of many people who claim to be God's people, who claim to up hold God's law but yet they don't. Jesus' diciples pick a ear of corn and the scribles scolded them, based on their expandings on Torah, which is not in Torah.

Here is what Jesus said:
Matt 5
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, will be subject to judgment.
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry will be subject to judgment
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

See how high the standard of God is? Jesus shows the real intent of God.

Correct and that's how Jesus pbuh should be viewed. Born miraculously, but a creation of God none the less.

Acts 2:22 "Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

So nothing you have shows the singular Gospel of 7th Century Arabia is the same as the 27 books and letters found in the NT today.

I asked you to show me, not throw it back on me. If you can't provide 7th Century texts from Arabia, then you have no idea what this Injeel was. It could have been The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles for all we know or some other document.

Qur'an was never given as a book. Qur'an = The Recitation. How do you preserve a recitation amongst a people known or their memory, poetry and oral traditions?

Yes of course, but who is charged with preserving their message once they die? Men of course and we know they are open to weakness and corruption. That's why we see a whole Chapter against those responsible for writing down Scriptures.

Why do you need 7th centrut arabia books? Do you think God is only a local God? If the word of God can't survive translation, it is no the word of God.

I covered this on this very thread with 2 other Christians:

Can you be saved without Christ?

Can you be saved without Christ?

Can you be saved without Christ?

Isaiah 9:6, 7:14 and 8:4 are all about the same person born 560 years before Jesus pbuh.

Fantastic, could you tell me how many animals are mentioned in the final 2 lines?

What did Jesus pbuh confirm about the Torah? You can only speculate.

Jesus confirms Torah, the whole Torah. God's word does not corrupt, do you really think the word of God is corrupted for thousands of years before Jesus? There is no speculation, God keep sending prophets to Jews to warn them, to lead them back, and God perserved his word, no one can corrupt the word of God. If you can't see that, God is weak in your heart and you don't truely believe in him.

Same as what I mentioned earlier, what was the conversation that took place between the Jews and Muhammad pbuh?

Stop and consider the following;

You believe Jesus pbuh is God Almighty to be worshipped and use the NT to try and prove this. The Qur'an says this is wrong and you should stop immediately. Is the Qur'an confirming the NT or condemning it?

This argument is null and void for the following reason:

Torah says, GOD is not the author of confusion, NT Trinity is pure confusion.
Torah says, God is not a man, NT Jesus pbuh a man is God.

Why do you say NT is pure confusion? Can you go find the word Trinity in NT?

Yes I agree, true faith produces works, a lifetime of works to balance the scales in Revelation 6:5

He repents after Doctors tell him he has 6 months to live? Or he's lying on his deathbed and wishes to repent? What were his bad sins? I need more information before I can give a fair answer.

How does Islam guarantee Salvation for non Muslims? Much simpler than most people think and only requires a little study because blindly following is forbidden.

he truly repents.
You keep saying blind following is forbidden. How do you not blind folllowing?

Jesus taught, "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits" (Mt. 7:15,16).

Someone come up and said he has the latest revlation of God, God is one and only and most pure, all previous scriptures are corrupted, go fight the unbelievers, how do you know he is not lieing?

 

[dcalling]

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it… Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Quran 2:75,79)

Note, even the Torah has those word (very similar, you quoted below). If anyone wrote stuff and claim they are from God, God will make sure people know as long as they think about it. That is why there are false books and they are not included in Torah/Gospel and even Quran was compiled and with other versions burned.

You're not a Trinitarian then.

Most of the Christians on here and say NT supports God is 3 persons, yet One.

You're just repeating yourself. Check what with the people and judge what?

Check with people who were before him, Jews/Christians, it is very clear.
Judge the actions. Does the Jew/Christian's actions are according to Torah/Gospel. Did the Jews /Christians Love God and Love their neighbors as themselves? If not did they repent.

Those actions include:

"How can you say, 'We [The Jews] are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie." (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)

Moses pbuh also predicted it:

For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deuteronomy 31:29)

Excatly, and this include Jews/Christians/Muslims. The Jews has oral Torah that are their Rabbie's interpetation of the Torah, the Christians have many sects who hold their leaders as divine (i.e. the Pope). The Muslims widely claim the Torah/Gospel are mostly lost. Those inventions are a revote against God and will have severe consequences.

You don't need to bring a NT text from the 7th Century Arabia, it doesn't exist. Qur'an says it is a light for all mankind. It has been translated into over 100 languages and brings people to the truth every single day.

I am mostly agree with you (about Gospel been the light for all man kind) but I can't claim no one has translated Bible into arabic before 7th century.

Please show me who the Messiah was from the Torah and what he was expected to do. This exercise will even show you how the Torah must be corrupted.

He is from the lines of David (Jeremian 23.5)
he has spririt of God, and under him all will be under harmony (beasts will not eat people etc), kids will play with snakes.

More from Mashiach: The Messiah / Torah 101 / Mechon Mamre it is a Jewish interpretation, but since they quoted accepted scripture, they are all good (as long as it is from scripture, not their interpretation of it)

This doesn't apply to you as I didn't know you weren't a Trinitarian. Is Jesus pbuh God according to you? If you say, he's the son of God, then I would ask, does that make him divine?

So according to scripture, Jesus is the word of God, was with God from the begining, was God (john 1:1), The way, truth, life (John 14:16) "Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles." Matt 12:18, "Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:", Acts 13:23.

And when I was having big doubts about Trinity, and was searching Quran on this, there are multiple verses in Quran that says Jesus is the word from God (3.45), and a spirit from God (4/171) "supported" with pure spirit (2.87, 253). in 4/171, I remember when I was debating with another Muslim who help the same position as you, he confirmed the original aribic is a spirit (instead of what on Quran.com as soul created by Allah, seems to be temperament in translation).

Over all, I would think Jesus is definitely from God, word of God, spirit of God, he alone is not a sinner because his spirit is of God, he spoke the word of God, and we should listen to him. It is like Jesus is the hand of God (he is word of God per NT but hand is easier to understand), God use his hand to come to the world to do something, and hand of God is not God, but part of God.

Indeed if you see what his commandments is, repent, we can't go to heaven by our works, since none is good but God alone. We need to Love God, Love our neighbor as ourselves (Mark 12:30, Matt 22:36), don't murder, don't steal, don't do false witness (from 10 commandements), don't revenge (romans 12:19, Lev 19:18). Those are the virtuals of OT/NT.

Still not enough information.

Does he repents after Doctors tell him he has 6 months to live? Or he's lying on his deathbed and wishes to repent? What were his bad sins?

Why does those matter? Supposedly he did many many bad things, killed people, stole money etc.

Muhammad pbuh started revealing the Qur'an when he was 40 years old. He belonged to the most powerful Tribe in Arabia, he was married to a wealthy woman, had a good job and was secure in his life. Do you accept this before we discuss if he was a liar or not.

I am not accusing Muhammad as a liar. I am simply asking if someone come up and said what Jews/Christians hold are corrupted, he has the latest revlation of God, God is one and only and most pure, all previous scriptures are corrupted, go fight the unbelievers, how do you know he is not lying? (I took out Muslim on the question since If I add it you will say use Quran as judgement, so I took it out but you misunderstood. You can add it to the end of the list).

 

[GeorgeTwo]

There are no variant Qur'ans amongst the Companions. Sure some may have supplications or a favourite Hadith in the back, but all the Qur'ans were 112 Chapters and memorised by Hundreds of people, today it's Millions. As the Muslims spread far and wide, other cultures started wrting done the oral recitation and mistakes started to appear, hence those manuscripts were ordered to be gathered and burnt. Not the oral Qur'an unless you want to suggest the memorisers were gathered and burnt to death? After Uthman, may Allah st be pleased with him, the next Caliph was Ali, may God be pleased with him. Why is that of importance? simply because Ali ra was related to the Prophet pbuh and had memorised the Qur'an by heart. The Qura'n's from Ali's reign were no different to Uthman's ra and of course no different to what we have today:

http://www.commdiginews.com/world-n...scovered-and-may-be-linked-to-imam-ali-30011/

I agreed and showed how the Gospels evolved over time using other sources. There are numerous books written on the subject.

Yes simply brush it off.

The family of Jesus pbuh were heretics?

You've shown the opinions of die hard evangelical Christians. I wouldn't expect them to say anything less.

Mark 1:1 proves NT was added to after the 4th Century. We have no idea what has been added to it from First to Third Century. Similar examples ring true of all the Gospels. No Scholar can say we have the NT as was written in the First Century.

Who added the long ending to Mark, who added the story of the adulteress woman to John, who added the crucifixion account to Matthew? Who added the incorrect genealogy to Luke etc etc These are hard to dispute, so in the absence of First century texts, you only follow well meaning conjecture.

I don't disagree, Jesus pbuh was the only way during is time, just as Moses pbuh was the only way before him. You follow God and you follow the teachings of the Messenger. Muslims accept all the Messengers and their uncorrupted teachings, the heart of which is belief in One God to be worshipped Alone.

I agree. It is also missing many words of God, and contains the words of anonymous people teaching very different doctrines.

For example where is the pre existing Jesus pbuh to be found in Mark or Luke when we read the accounts of the virgin birth?

You must take the whole of the New Testament to find out who Jesus is. You expect each book in the New Testament of include all points.

Apparently, you have learned nothing from textual manuscript analysis. No Christian doctrine is affected by any variant.

 

[dcalling]

There you go then, the verse is clear and it's speaking about the previous Scriptures, clear as daylight from the previous verses. The Scribes themselves confirmed it in Jer 8:8 as shown.

Case closed

Here are Jeremiah 8:


Why then have these people turned away?
Why does Jerusalem always turn away?
They cling to deceit;
they refuse to return.

6

I have listened attentively,
but they do not say what is right.
None of them repent of their wickedness,
saying, “What have I done?”
Each pursues their own course
like a horse charging into battle.

7

Even the stork in the sky
knows her appointed seasons,
and the dove, the swift and the thrush
observe the time of their migration.
But my people do not know
the requirements of the Lord.

8

“‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the Lord,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

9

The wise will be put to shame;
they will be dismayed and trapped.
Since they have rejected the word of the Lord,
what kind of wisdom do they have?

God want them to repent, and they refused, they won't see what their actions are. They murder, they steal, they kill. Just look at the actions of some the Jews/Christians/Muslims (right now ISIS).

It applies to everyone. God keeps his word from corruptions, if you seek God his word is always there.

Again check what exactly with the previous people? Only use the text, don't put your understanding on it, that's what you said. Ignore everything but the text :/

The previous text is talking about isrealiets, so it clearly include Jews. But since Christians and Jews both come before Muhammad, it will include both Christians and Jews, else why would he come to confirm both Gospel and Torah?

Judge by what has been revealed, what did the Jews ask Muhammad pbuh to judge about, so we can understand what the verse means?

I remember there is ahaidth that some Jews who commited adultery want to try to avoid death and come to Muhammad, and Muhammad killed them any ways according to Torah.

Or are you saying generally tell the Jews and Christians to Judge by what their books say?

If so, then I have lots of questions for you.

Yes that is excatly Quran says, and you keep denying. Jews/Christians should be judged by what God send them. Do you deny your own text? use the text and don;t apply your own understanding to it, pure text. Ask me any questions you have.

No you are adding your opinion to the text again. It's very clear

"How can you say, 'We [The Jews] are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie." (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)

Don't add your or any Scholars understanding, just read the text. Your rules remember.

Same as above, look at ISIS, they are doing what they do by the false pen of the scribes. The Bible is a timeless word of God that apply from the old times to now.

The Qur'an makes a claim to be a 'light for all mankind' The NT makes no such claim.

Of course NT claim the same. Try John 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

From your link:

What Will the Mashiach Do?

Before the time of the mashiach, there will be war and great suffering ( Ezekiel 38,16). Then the mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing all Jews outside Israel back to Israel, and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11,11-12; Jeremiah 23,8; 30,3; Hosea 3,4-5). He will establish a Torah government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and Gentiles (Isaiah 2,2-4; 11,10; 42,1). He will rebuild the Temple and reestablish its worship (Jeremiah 33,18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel, if it had not already been reestablished before him, and establish the Torah as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33,15).

Jesus pbuh wasn't the Messiah then was he. He wasn't even from the line of King David pbuh, which needed to come directly from the male descendants, a physical seed not adopted or spiritual.

That is your understanding of it, you can't understand what God planned for us since you can't see his plan. What if I tell you that Quran claim Jesus is the Messiah? Are you contradicting Quran? If you do that you are no longer a Muslim.

John 1:1 is the creation story. The story is found in Genesis too, let's see if they are the same:

John's version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

vs

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

John clearly has the word as a separate God from God. Where is the 'Word' in the Genesis account that makes everything? Was John drawing on the Genesis record or perhaps some other source?



Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. Qur'an 3:59

Is there any hint of Jesus pbuh being God in the Qur'an? None whatsoever.


Word of God = 'Be' and he was as shown above.
Spirit of God just means being pure and pious, one who is sinless in the sight of Allah swt

Same in Islam, so I'm fully in agreement there.

Well it did matter, but let me just add my own guesswork in answer it.

This guy lives his life doing all these bad things, then one day in old age, not having been diagnosed with imminent death, he repents sincerely and turns to God for forgiveness. Yes Allah swt will forgive him as long as he doesn't repeat the evil.


Not sure what fighting the unbelievers has to do with anything. Torah shows Prophets of old fought against the disbelievers.

I've shown the scribes admitting to corrupting the Scripture just as Moses pbuh predicted. No sane Scholar believes the NT has not been altered. You only have to look at Mark 1:1 or Acts 2:22 "Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Who made him God? Did the writers of John's Gospel write before or after the Book of Acts?

Do you claim to understand how God works? I don't. If multiple scriptures says Jesus is word of God, he is. Why is God make such speical arrangement for Jesus, that he should be born a vigirin? He is formed by pure word of God, he has the pure spirit of God. and that your claim of his word been lost is contraray to all scriptures, an invention. In my example, is word of God God? part of God?

Let's get back to your question of no blind following, and my question, if someone come up and said what Jews/Christians hold are corrupted, he has the latest revlation of God, God is one and only and most pure, all previous scriptures are corrupted, go fight the unbelievers, how do you know he is not lying? (I took out Muslim on the question since If I add it you will say use Quran as judgement, so I took it out but you misunderstood. You can add it to the end of the list).

 

[dcalling]

Isis and Christians weren't around when the Scribes admitted to falsifying texts with their own hands.

The scribes didn't admit them, Prophet of God told them. The word of God is incorruptable, so all they could do is add on (i.e. the oral torah).

Qur'an confirms this corruption;

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it… Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Quran 2:75,79)

Now given both Jer 8:8 and the Qur'an 2:75,79 confirm the previous Scriptures are corrupted, let's look carefully at your favourite verses from the Qur'an:

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous. Qur'an 5:46

What did Jesus pbuh confirm about the Torah? Matthew 5:17-19 The Laws are never to change, and anyone who doesn't follow them will not obtain salvation. The Qur'an mentions Jesus pbuh, not John or Paul or anyone else. Only what Jesus pbuh said, remember that.

And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient. Qur'an 5:47

So Jews should judge based on what was revealed to them, tooth for a tooth, eye for an eye or forgiveness as may be the case. What are Christians to judge by then, the Torah right?

And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ. Qur'an 5:48

What does criterion mean?

And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient. Qur'an 5:49

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do. Qur'an 5:14

As you've lost a portion of what was revealed, you have to keep the Torah Laws. You now also understand the Qur'an is the criterion over both the Torah and Gospel.

So lookup the verses, it says "write the book with their own hands", i.e. added on, "forget a portion", some are lost. We didn't lost the Torah laws, no murder, no stealing, which part of the torah laws did we lost?
And "And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein" so Christians are to be judged by Gospel, which means either the additions nor parts forgotten affected the message of God. That is clear from the verses you quoted.

so you had to break your own rule and consult a Hadith. They actually came for Judgement regarding adultery, the Prophet pbuh asked what the Torah said on the matter, and they tried to mislead him. The truth came out and the adulterers received their punishment according to God's commands in the Torah.

Things are clear, the Torah has been changed, but the Jews can still gain salvation by following the Laws and Commandments within it. The Christians have forgotten some of what was revealed and have to keep Torah for salvation. If you take Jesus pbuh as God, then you have disbelieved.

So you acknowledge that the Torah is very usable?

Jesus come to confirm Torah, because the Jews went all Law (how to observe sabbath etv) but not the spririt of Law, i.e. Love your neighbor as yourselve. and Jesus said none of God's law will be voided, so pretty much confirms Torah is not corrupted.

And Jesus is not God, but he is word of God, so Jesus is either part of God (as in hand of God, spirit of God), or directly generated by God (as God spoke the word became Jesus). This is part of the mystery that we can't figure out, since God is too great for us.

The Qur'an supersedes previous Scriptures and Muslims are only to use it for guidance.

Remember Qur'an only endorsed what Jesus pbuh revealed, keep Torah, not what John says. You can choose to ignore God and follow what you like, but ultimately you'll be amongst the losers.

If that is the case, Muhammad would have said this, since if he is truely prophet of God he would know. How do you justify God's word been corrupted for 600 years? If you held torah is corrupted too, that would be thousands of years.

The passages were clear, Jesus pbuh could not be that Messiah. The Dead Sea Scrolls speak of a Kingly Messiah and a Priestly Messiah. The Qur'an says, he is the Messiah, but doesn't say which one.

Did Quran claim Muhammad is the Messiah?
Jesus is both Messiah, he is the priest, and he will be the Kingly Messiah on his second coming.

Words are part of a person's identity and convey communication between humans, or in this case, God's command and instructions to mankind via his Angels, Prophets and Messengers. The word is not a separate conscious being as John would have us belief.

Do you claim you fully understand the power of God's word?

I asked you to prove John was right by showing me the word made flesh in Genesis and you couldn't, so tell me, which one is incorrect the creation story in Gen or John?

Jesus was not made flesh in Genesis. Jesus is word of God, i.e. when God says "there be light", that is Jesus working since Jesus is word of God. John 8:58 "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

We know Muhammad pbuh was not lying because Jer 8:8 amongst other evidences that we don't need to go into and the fact that despite Jesus pbuh telling his followers to keep Torah, Christians have abandoned it in favour of following people like Paul and John. This shows clear corruption.

We also know Muhammad pbuh wasn't lying because he received revelation aged 40. Before that his community used to call him the trustworthy one, they would come to him as a fair unbiased judge, they would leave the items of value in his care when they went away on business. He was known as a illiterate person, and when the Qur'an appeared, he was suddenly reciting these verses that far exceeded the poetic Arabic of the time. We know he wasn't a liar because of what the Qur'an mentions, embryology, cosmology, prophecies - things that were not known at the time.

Qur'an says Jesus pbuh wasn't crucified. Why would Muhammad pbuh say that? It would have been easier to say, Jesus pbuh will return, but he has sent me to bring you back on the right path. You have been waiting 600 years and he hasn't come, it's because you have followed false teachers, so come back, get right and then Jesus pbuh will return. that would have been easy, yet he gets their backs up by denying the crucifixion! Within the last few decades we recently discovered Gospels hidden at Qumran, showing there were early Christians, including 6 Disciples who did not think he had been crucified.

We know there was an eclipse when his son died, and the people started saying it was because of the death, and Muhammad pbuh said, No it's nothing o do with the death of my son, eclipse is just a sign from God, nothing more. A liar would have said, yes see, an eclipse sent by God!

We know he's not a liar from all the sincere western Scholars who have studied the man's life:

“I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capability to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. The world must doubtless attach high value to the predictions of great men like me. I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." George Bernard Shaw 1933

I am only asking how do you tell if some religion who says all previous religion before it are corrupted is correct, and you keep try to prove me that Muhammad might not lie. So I guess your answer is look at the man.

I would say we need to look both at the man, the message and the fruit the message bears.

Matt 7:20 "by their fruit you will recognize them", Gal 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery, idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. .... But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Look at Christianity. the people followed Jesus, for the first 300 years the members beared cross just like Jesus, been persecuted through out the land, no organized rebellian but only peace and love, and God made sure they triumph.

Now look at Islam. The oldest Islam university even refused to condem ISIS. Islam's Oldest University Says ISIS Are Not Heretics to Islam , despite all the attrocities ISIS carried (the acts of ISIS is compare to animals, I once posted some pictures of the ISIS actions on this forum and was banned for a week). Look at the Islam laws on war, they are either the "lying pen of the scribes" or is really intended. Do you really believe God intended such actions on the generations to come? And to this date there are bad blood between Sunnies and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ies. Where Jesus, knows human nature, tried best to make sure no one can use NT for violence, the Quran verses are so confusing that many think the later violent vereses aborgate the prior peaceful verses.

Do God aborgate his words?

 

[dcalling]

The verse is clear. You can add what you like to make yourself convinced otherwise.

The only Judgements in the Gospel is to follow the Torah. No other Laws are available to you, a part was lost remember. The Qur'an isn't interested in what was lost, because it says, light has arrived so follow Muhammad pbuh.

That is fine, since Torah is the same as what Jesus preached (i.e. the message is the same). Nothing seems to be lost (on the message side). It does seems a lot of what's in Torah is not in Quran.

Yes as you don't wish to follow the Qur'an, ask a Rabbi to explain the rules on what you must do to be saved.

See above, follow the Torah to be saved or the Qur'an.

Why do we need a Rabbi to explain the rules when we have Jesus who is the word of God? Isn't the explaination of Jesus more clear than common Rabbi?

This isn't Orthodox Christian teaching. It's a mystery no matter which Christian you speak to. Not clear understanding of who God is as per the simplicity of Torah or Qur'an.

Nothing can really explain who God is, all we know is God is the creator, most powerful and entirely rightus.

There were people following true Torah who stayed true to what was revealed even to this day. The Injeel was followed and preserved by the true followers of Jesus pbuh. In the 7th Century, their descendants recognised the expected Prophet and embraced Islam.

The Messiah is Jewish, nothing to do with Muhammad pbuh.

ok

God doesn't author confusion, we know that much.

So what is the Holy Spirit pbuh?

The holy spirit is spirit of God. in an exmple if Jesus is the right hand of God, holy spirit is the left hand of God. The correct saying will be Jesus is word of God and holy spirit is spirit of God, just God use diffwrwnt part of him to touch and help us.

God told Muhammad pbuh, but yes go ahead and look at the man...

Jesus pbuh had a short Ministry and didn't give much guidance on what to do in war, how to form a community, deal with hostile nations, invasions etc etc

God made sure his word have a huge impact on the word, even thought it is only 3 years, and without use of any force, Jesus has the biggest following in the world today.

That's not news. American conservative website. Al-azhar condemns Isis : https://www.pressreader.com/israel/jerusalem-post/20170217/281895888000858 even the European Parliament uses their rulings for references.

So using your argument, the KKK are representatives of Christianity, as is Hitler, The Inquisition, Crusades, Blair and Bush Invasion of Iraq. The South American cartels handing out Bibles and beheading people, the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda cooking and eating their enemies. Really you wish to say, this is all Christianity?!

Let's take a look at Bush/Blair/KKK, did they quote religion as reason to invasion? Were they able to quote a single scripture as the reason?

Post verses from the Qur'an and Hadith if you want to prove something.

Apart from saying bring my enemies before me and slay them. Revelation 14:20 talks about Judgement would come, and result in miles and miles of roads, with blood flowing as high as 6 ft. These must be verses all the Christian groups above likely used to justify their crimes.

Be a consistent Christian and let's see.

You know you are trying to muddy the waters. Judgement is by God, not by humans, look at NT, is there anything that calls for humans to do God's work? Can you quote anything (with context) that calls for humans to do God's work?

Look at all the word of God, and they are consistent cross NT and OT
Romans 12:19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

Lev 19:18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Det 32:39 'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.'

Pro 20:22 Do not say, "I will repay evil"; Wait for the LORD, and He will save you.
Matt 5:38 You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also

Luke 6:27 But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either

Romans 12:17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone Respect what is right in the sight of all men.

And there are more...

 

[dcalling]

Ok I understand your concept of God at a surface level.

The Worlds largest religion follows the teachings of Paul. The Christianity centred around submission to God as a humble servant that Jesus pbuh taught is only found in the Qur'an.

Can you show me where in Paul's teaching that differer from that of Christ?
And it is said again and again, do you believe that Muhammad is not aware of Paul? If he ever mention Paul (or John/Matt/Mark) like what he warned about Mary, this debat will be much easier.

George Bush:

Donald leading the prayers

Bush said, "Bush warned Americans that "this crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take awhile."

Bliar: Tony Blair believed God wanted him to go to war to fight evil, claims his mentor

KKK then:

KKK today:

• 
  Welcome to the White Camelia Knights of Ku Klux Klan!
  The White Camelia Knights of the KKK is a Texas based KKK organization composed of White Christian Men and Women dedicated to the advancement and protection of the same Christian beliefs that were the foundation of this once great nation.
  • 
    White Christian Israelites are under God’s law and covenant. The other peoples of the earth are under nature’s law, which God also created. One good example of this would be the Japanese or Asian people. The Japanese have always practiced racial separation and have always taught against race mixing. In fact the Japanese have stated that America’s biggest problem is due to integration of the races. The Japanese or Asian people are not directly under the law’s of God as the Israelites are, they are how ever under the law of nature and they have segregated themselves to maintain their racial purity and national sovereignty.
    
    Nature’s law, which is a creation of YAHWEH, dictates that kind reproduce after kind. The different people of the world were never supposed to mix. Even the different animals and species of our world practice natures law of reproduction "Kind after Kind".
  White Camelia Knight of the Ku Klux Klan - http://www.wckkkk.org

I wonder what their favourite Bible passages were?

My question exactly, what Bible passage did they use to justify their actions?

A Chosen People - Deuteronomy 7
“When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you are entering to take possession of it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites, the Gir'gashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites, seven nations greater and mightier than yourselves, 2 and when the Lord your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them.

So Jesus the word of God is commanding people to follow his orders.
Yes and God's Word, Jesus has people carry out His retribution.

You are confusing OT and NT. In OT God commanded Isrealites to clear the enemies that God had send his prophets to warn again and again. Have you read the book of Jonah, where God want Jonah to warn the people of Niniviah, and Jonah don't want to because they are the enemy of Isreal? And when God foced him to do so, and people of Niniviah repented, God didn't destroy the city and Jonah became angry? That is our Lord, you only follow his direct word into war with clear signs, fire in the sky, sea split, you know that is the Lord. That is why Moses was able to make clear to the Isrealites that he is from the Lord without any prior book, because of the Miracles of God. Later Jesus' teachings are in accord to OT, and people know he is from God.

Are you wishing you didn't bring this up yet? Don't Judge a religion by its followers, rather Judge it based on the teachings found in the Scriptures.

For Muslims, that's the Qur'an and Authentic Hadiths.

Yes that is true, don't judge by just some followers, but at the same time good tree brought good fruit. Jesus told his followers to love, to forgive, and that brought the entire Roman empire to became a Christian country without the need of a Christian rebellion.

Romans 12:19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

It is clear, Jesus said we humans are not worth of judgement of others, God should do the judgement. Jesus never said anything about revenge, he said "forgive them Father since they do not know what they are doing" (Luke 23:34).

Look at Quran and Authentic Hadiths, how many Muslims are truly following them? When it said clearly that Jews should be judged by Torah and Christians should be judged by Gospel, it is clear Muhammad knows Torah and Gospel are still good to used for judgement, and yet you are hear to claim that the word of God is corrupted. What if you refuted the word of God? Are you truely submit to God if you refute any of his word?

ISIS is trying their best to follow the authentic hadiths, they will force daily prayers and cut the hand off theifs. Do you want to live in a place like that or somewhere where the only requirement is to love God and love the others like youself?

 

[dcalling]

Differences between Jesus in Synoptics and the Gospel according to Paul's understanding.

Grace:
Jesus pbuh taught: Give grace to enemies, to receive it.
Paul taught: From God sending Jesus pbuh to die & resurrect.

Salvation:
Jesus pbuh: From following Jesus’s ways to God.
Paul: Salvation in death of Jesus pbuh.

Eternal Life:
Jesus pbuh: Following Commandments.
Paul: Believing grace from Jesus’s pbuh death.

Works:
Jesus: Yes
Paul: No

Love:
Jesus pbuh: Love enemies though loving God alone, hate self.
Paul: Love brethren, love self. Jesus pbuh loves you.

Light:
Jesus pbuh: We can all be light and dark, yet aim to be full of light.
Paul: Good news makes the Church children of light.

Peace:
Jesus: Came to bring division, not peace.
Paul: We’ve got peace due to his death on the cross.

Killed by:
Synoptics: Jesus pbuh killed by Pharisees
Paul: Jesus chose to come and die.

Effect of his murder:
Synoptics: Israel divorced. Many condemned for swearing falsely, to stealing his inheritance.
Paul: To reconcile us due to Adam, graft us onto Israel and make us kings in heaven.

Becoming part of Israel:
Synoptics: Divided the house. If you marry Israel, you commit adultery.
Paul: Becoming part of Israel - Joins the houses. Grafts on Gentile to Jew.

Some (i.e. the first few) does not conflict at all, Jesus himself in different books said he is going to die for our sins Matt 20:17 "We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"

John 12:24 "The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified. Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain"

Others you have to quote source.

What have notable Scholars said regarding Paul:

In the excellent book Christ or Paul?, the Rev. V.A. Holmes-Gore wrote:

"Let the reader contrast the true Christian standard with that of Paul and he will see the terrible betrayal of all that the Master taught....For the surest way to betray a great Teacher is to misrepresent his message....That is what Paul and his followers did, and because the Church has followed Paul in his error it has failed lamentably to redeem the world....The teachings given by the blessed Master Christ, which the disciples John and Peter and James, the brother of the Master, tried in vain to defend and preserve intact were as utterly opposed to the Pauline Gospel as the light is opposed to the darkness."


The great theologian Soren Kierkegaard, writing in The Journals, echoes the above sentiment:

"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther. in his reformation, failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down. making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"


The brilliant theologian Ernest Renan, in his book Saint Paul, wrote:

"True Christianity, which will last forever, comes from the gospel words of Christ not from the epistles of Paul. The writings of Paul have been a danger and a hidden rock. the causes of the principal defects of Christian theology."


Albert Schweitzer, winner of the 1952 Nobel Peace Prize, has been called "one of the greatest Christians of his time." He was a philosopher, physician, musician, clergyman, missionary, and theologian. In his The Quest for the Historical Jesus and his Mysticism of Paul he writes:

"Paul....did not desire to know Christ....Paul shows us with what complete indifference the earthly life of Jesus was regarded....What is the significance for our faith and for our religious life, the fact that the Gospel of Paul is different from the Gospel of Jesus?....The attitude which Paul himself takes up towards the Gospel of Jesus is that he does not repeat it in the words of Jesus, and does not appeal to its authority....The fateful thing is that the Greek, the Catholic, and the Protestant theologies all contain the Gospel of Paul in a form which does not continue the Gospel of Jesus, but displaces it."

William Wrede, in his excellent book Paul, informs us:

"The oblivious contradictions in the three accounts given by Paul in regard to his conversion are enough to arouse distrust....The moral majesty of Jesus, his purity and piety, his ministry among his people, his manner as a prophet, the whole concrete ethical-religious content of his earthly life, signifies for Paul's Christology nothing whatever....The name 'disciple of Jesus' has little applicability to Paul....Jesus or Paul: this alternative characterizes, at least in part, the religious and theological warfare of the present day"

Rudolf Bultman, one of the most respected theologians of this century, wrote in his Significance of the Historical Jesus for the Theology of Paul:

"It is most obvious that Paul does not appeal to the words of the Lord in support of his....views. when the essentially Pauline conceptions are considered, it is clear that Paul is not dependent on Jesus. Jesus' teaching is -- to all intents and purposes -- irrelevant for Paul."

Walter Bauer, another eminent theologian, wrote in his Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity:

"If one may be allowed to speak rather pointedly the Apostle Paul was the only Arch-Heretic known to the apostolic age."

George Bernard Shaw, winner of the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1925; in his Androcles and the Lion, we read:

"There is not one word of Pauline Christianity in the characteristic utterances of Jesus....There has really never been a more monstrous imposition perpetrated than the imposition of Paul's soul upon the soul of Jesus....It is now easy to understand how the Christianity of Jesus....was suppressed by the police and the Church, while Paulinism overran the whole western civilized world, which was at that time the Roman Empire, and was adopted by it as its official faith."

Will Durant; in his Caesar and Christ, he wrote:

"Paul created a theology of which none but the vaguest warrants can be found in the words of Christ....Through these interpretations Paul could neglect the actual life and sayings of Jesus, which he had not directly known....Paul replaced conduct with creed as the test of virtue. It was a tragic change."

In one of the best books on early Christianity, Those Incredible Christians, Dr. High Schonfield reports:

"It was not only the teaching and activities of Paul which made him obnoxious to the Christian leaders: but their awareness that he set his revelations above their authority and claimed an intimacy with the mind of Jesus, greater than that of those who had companied with him on earth and had been chosen by him....It was an abomination, especially as his ideas were so contrary to what they knew of Jesus, that he should pose as the embodiment of the Messiah 's will....Paul was seen as the demon-driven enemy of the Messiah....For the legitimate Church, Paul was a dangerous and disruptive influence, bent on enlisting a large following among the Gentiles in order to provide himself with a numerical superiority with the support of which he could set at defiance the Elders at Jerusalem. Paul had been the enemy from the beginning. And because he failed in his former open hostility he had craftily insinuated himself into the fold to destroy it from within."

Martin Buber, the most respected Jewish philosopher of this century, wrote in Two Types of Faith:

"The Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount is completely opposed to Paul"

Statements about Paul by Prominent Theologians and Bible Scholars

James and Peter knew exactly who this man was.

To that I would say, instead of hearing what noble xyz said, read the book and check if they are true.

Why would Muhammad pbuh be concerned with Gospel of X, Y, Z and letters of Paul? He only confirmed the Injeel (Gospel) that was given to Jesus pbuh. Why would he care about the 40+ other Gospels that were in circulation?

Muhammad pbuh was sent as the Final Revelation to Mankind. Study and accept if it rings true, or cling on to past understandings on how to be saved.

Not sure what that matters? The point is; anyone not willing to obey God can pick up any religious text and justify mass murder.

They can't with NT. They will not bel able to use NT quote to justify mass murder, it is just that hard, when all of the teachings of Jesus are about repent your own sins, about forgiveness and the salvation from God alone.

And If Muhammad is indeed a prophet of God and knows Gospel of Jesus is lost, replaced by books from Mark/Matt/John and Paul, he would simply mention the 4 names and case solved. He don't need to do anytthing else, just say "The Gospel of Jesus is lost, some authors faked his book, the biggest is Paul (or throw just a couple more).

Nope instead Quran confirmed Christians should be judged by Gospel, just like they already done for hundreds of years. It is so clear, do you really trust your prophet? Do you think you know more than your prophet?

Thank Paul for Christianity, not Jesus's hijacked message.

Regarding 'fruits':
History doesn't seem to much love shown by the Christian Roman Empire towards others. Once Church and State were separated, then Yes, we can see love and tolerance is preached in earnest. Today the sentiments of Jesus pbuh and message of love is preached, but Christianity as a force is gone, replaced with Secular Laws and values. If Jesus pbuh returned today, he would never think Christians for the most part were his followers; he likely wouldn't even want to break bread with them. Things would likely be different if he came across a group of Monks or Christians from the Holy Lands.

Fruits of Islam:
Islam wiped pagan idol worship away from the Arabian Peninsula, and brought Monotheism back into clear focus. It spread near and far with Pagans, Christians and Jews all accepting the message of Tawheed, Oneness of GOD. Female infants were no longer buried alive, warring factions were united and Abraham's pbuh prayer was at long last answered. It brought a complete way of life and answered the many questions Jesus pbuh left unanswered; John 16:12



[2.284] Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is
Allah's; and whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah
will call you to account according to it; then He will forgive whom He
pleases and chastise whom He pleases, and Allah has power over all things.
Qur'an 2.284

A good action and a bad action are not the same. Repel the bad with something better and, if there is enmity between you and someone else, he will be like a bosom friend. Qur'an 41:34

The repayment of a bad action is one equivalent to it. But if someone pardons and puts things right, his reward is with God. Certainly He does not love wrongdoers. Qur'an, 42:40

Those who give in times of both ease and hardship, those who control their rage and pardon other people God loves the good-doers. Qur'an, 3:134

You will never cease to come upon some act of treachery on their part, except for a few of them. Yet pardon them, and overlook. God loves good-doers. Qur'an, 5:13

Allah swt says, seek justice, but don't exceed the limits, or take financial compensation instead or forgive, and that is the best action.

Do you see how confusing the above are? How do you know which few of them should cease? It is all left for the human to judge. If you are under ISIS control they can easily say you are not the few and kill you based on this article alone.

Jews follow their Rabbis, the oral Talmud is the ultimate guide. If the Torah says go right, and the Talmud says, go left. A rabbi will say, Left it correct.

The Christians mostly follow Paul as shown.

That is what the Torah and Jesus warned, the oral Talmud is not from God, it is a compilation of the rulings (and inventions) from the Rabies on how good they are at understanding the Torah. They care about the rules more then the real message of God, which Jesus said it is plain and simple, Love God and Love others as yourselve.

The Muslims follow the Qur'an which is pure and uncorrupted, it's the criterion over previous scriptures.

Nu’aym b. Hammad records in his Kitab al-Fitan (The Book of Tribulations):

“It is related on the authority of ‘Ali (may Allah ennoble his countenance): ‘When you see the black flags, remain where you are and do not move your hands or your feet (It’s a common phrase meaning: “Stay put and don’t get involved in the fighting”). Thereafter there shall appear a feeble folk to whom no concern is given. Their hearts will be like fragments of iron. They are the representatives of the State (Ashab al-Dawla). They will fulfill neither covenant nor agreement. They will invite to the truth, though they are not from its people. Their names will be agnomens [i.e., Abu So-and-so], and their ascriptions will be to villages. Their hair will be long like that of women. [They shall remain so] till they differ among themselves, and then Allah will bring forth the truth from whomever He wills.’”

1. Black flags: ISIS use black flags.
2. Feeble: They are newcomers to the fight in Syria and relative nobodies till they took swathes of land that was taken by other fighters.
3. Hearts like fragments of iron: Watch any of their videos and judge for yourself.
4. Ashab al-Dawla: They call themselves, the Dawla.
5. Breaking agreements: They broke agreements and refused Shariah arbitration.
6. Invite to the truth, though not from its people: Yes, they’re Khawarij (Separatists).
7. Their names will be agnomens: Of course, they’re a bunch of Abu Fulans.
8. Their ascriptions will be to villages: Villages here could be read as cities; most of them are al-Iraqi, al-Misri, al-Maghribi, al-Tunisi, etc.
9. Long hair: See pictures of them for yourself.

isis and groups like them are misguided to say the least. I pray Allah swt turns their hearts away from evil actions. Many people have gone to join them, thinking the Media was misrepresenting them, got there to realise that they really are monstrous and tried to escape from them. Some have brought female captives and driven them to safety, others have stood up to them and fought back. Currently it is Muslims on the front lines in the war against Isis.

It will be amazing if some prophet can predict this, but I did some research on black flag, the ISIS design is because it is the flag of the prophet is a black flag with wool.

And indeed ISIS tried their best to follow strictly with Islam law, the way it was practiced back in the time of Muhammad.

 

[dcalling]

Where in the Synoptic Gospels Mark, Luke and Matthew does he say Salvation is found in my human blood sacrifice on the cross?

Why throw John in the mix? Synoptics vs Paul is the focus.

Didn't know what Synoptics is, so let's use Luke.
Luke 9:22 “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

There Jesus said he MUST die. It is the will of God and his death and resurrect is required for him to complete his mission.

Every Christian I've met is a source for this information. Ask them to tell you about Jesus pbuh and salvation, they will start quoting passages from the 'alleged' letters of Paul.

You can't trust people, trust the scriptures. The understanding is between you and God, not some other human. So you have to do your own research and quote the scriptures.

Jesus pbuh said believe in God alone, keep the Commandments, and do good works. Paul said just believe Jesus pbuh died for you. No need to do anything else to reject Paul. Some denominations today even preach baptism isn't a requirement, just accept Jesus pbuh as Lord and Saviour.

You are wrong. You are trying to twist Paul. God knows this and inspired Paul to clarify what he meant.
See Ephsians 2 (and actually through out Paul's other letters if you actually read them):

Here in 2.1 Paul said your old ways in sin (where you don't do good works) should be gone:
2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient

and in 2:8 he made it clear, he didn't say "don't do good works", he said you can't be saved by good work, because you can only saved by God. Do you agree with that? Do you think you can go to heaven by your own good works?

2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works

The NT can not stand on it's own.

Why not? Jesus gives the most important commandment of all, Love God with all your heart/mind/soul and Love others as yourselv. If you Love God this much you won't worship idols, or not observe the sabbath, and if you love others as yourselve you won't bear false witeness, steal, kill. NT summarizes OT. Can you show me where NT can't stand on its own?

Let's pretend the Bible only contained the NT, If people wanted they could use it to commit murder: Don't think I come to bring peace, bring my enemies here and kill them, the streets will run with blood for miles 6ft high.

I'm not saying this is the message of the NT, simply countering your argument that isis and groups like them could only use the Qur'an.

You know full well that those verses are parables of the judgement from God to come, from God, not humans. And the "not to bring peace" is because the word of God differ so much from the world that the world will hate them, the hate is not from real Christians, who Jesus commanded to love others as themselves, it is from people who don't listen to the word of God, that hate those who listen to the word of God.

It is very easy to pick many verses from Quran and use to incite violence, but God had make sure NT is not twistable.

All 4 Gospels and letters of Paul talk about Jesus pbuh died on the cross. The Qur'an categorically denies he was killed or crucified. What more did you want him to say?

Well, the Quran must be wrong. Quran confirms that Jews are good to be judged by Torah, that Christians are to be judged by Gospel, which both exists before Quran for many many years and God keeps his word intact through the ages. The Quran told Muhammad to ask the people of the book if he is in doubt. Muhammad didn't say anything about how someone named Paul led Christians astraight, he only said Jesus didn't die and don't worship God/Mary/Jesus as Gods.

Ok let's imagine a Christian State that judges using the Gospel. Please answer the following:

What is the punishment for one who starts worshipping a idol?

What is the punishment for theft in the case of one who steals to feed himself out of desperate need, and one who breaks into a home to steal jewellery?

What is the punishment for adultery for a man or woman whose slept with a married person?
What is the punishment for a married person who commits adultery?

What is the punishment for accidentally killing someone, a single punch, person falls back and cracks their head e.g
What is the punishment for planned killing of someone?

Answers from the Gospel citing Jesus pbuh please.

First, Jesus's kindom is in heaven, so no man can be the head of a pure Christan state except Jesus alone.

Second, Jesus said the commandment of the Lord will always be there, so no murder etc are the commandments.

Third, for people who has stealed, here are an example fro Luke 19. Zahaccesus told Jesus if he have stole anything from anyone, he will repay them 4 times (which is voluntary). To that Jesus said
“Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

For people who commited adultery An example is John 8, Jesus said
“All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” and to the woman he said "go and sin no more"

For accidental killings, Christians are told to forgive, in OT the Lord setup escaping cities so they can go hide there.

But all after all, what Jesus commanded for us on earth is :
Mark 12:17 "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."

Which means when you are on the world, obey the world's law.

I can see the confusion and it's not coming from the Qur'an.


And keep the Commandments for they won't change until Heaven and Earth come to pass.


You have absolutely no clue about early Islam outside of weak and fabricated Hadiths.

Why is not the confusion from Quran? How do you know which "few" should be spared and who are not? In Gospel it is simple, judgement is left to God alone, we can see the outside but God see hearts. The Gospel gives an framework that last for eternity, not some 7th century arabica laws that some groups are trying to apply everywhere.

Let's try this. Do you want to live in a country where you are free to read any book, make up your own mind base on the book, or some country where you are limited to only a set of books, and the interpertation and even your live can be decided by some other human being?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Luke and Matthew include the birth narratives, but there's no pre-existing Jesus pbuh to be found. If Jesus pbuh is the Word through whom everything was made, then why isn't this being explained, this is key mainstream Christian Doctrine.

Texts, when written, typically are written with a specific point in mind. There is a target audience, there's an occasion for writing, and there is something (or a set of somethings) to be communicated from the author to the audience.

The Bible isn't magic. The books which make up the Bible aren't magic. They are texts written by people, to other people, for specific purposes. Expecting them to address every question, or answer everything we third party readers might want is silly. Why should they? They weren't written to me, or to you, they were written to a specific audience, with a specific purpose or set of purposes.

The Bible isn't the Christian Qur'an. It is not a book of divine revelation. That simply isn't the historic relationship of Christianity with its Scriptures. Revelation ultimately, in Christianity, isn't a text, but a person. Our sacred writings are not the revelation of God to the world, but the received witness of that Revelation, Jesus Christ; received and confessed within the Church's ancient and historic worship, faith, and practice. The Bible exists within the larger context of Christian teaching and tradition, of receiving what is handed down, namely the faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The point of this thread was to show, you do not have to believe this to be saved. One only has to worship God alone, obey His Commandments and treat others how you wish to be treated. Any person following this path will eventually obtain Salvation.

Salvation, in the Christian understanding, doesn't make sense apart from Jesus; namely because salvation is the overthrow of death, forgiveness of sin, reconciliation with God, the full healing of what it means to be human, ultimately the healing of the whole of creation, the renewal of all things, and the full participation into the glory and life of God. This isn't about getting our ideas right, or doing the right things; this is about what God has done, through Jesus, for the world.

I have no problem with the notion that, in the end, there will be those who were Muslims in this life in the age to come; but likewise the same holds equally true for Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, and Pagans.

The reason is because salvation is never about us getting our religion right, getting all our t's crossed and i's dotted; it's about the gracious and kind God who condescends to meet the world in the person of Jesus.

I don't believe I'm saved because I've chosen the right religion; my hope for salvation does not point back to myself, or to the theological propositions which I hold. My hope for salvation rests upon the trust of what happened two thousand years ago on a hill called Golgotha outside a little ways from Jerusalem. Further, my hope for the salvation of the whole world, and my hope in the salvation of all others rests upon the same: of what God has done, for all of us, in and by Jesus.

Just because you believe in the one God of Abraham doesn't contribute anything, even the devils believe. Nor do our works, no matter how noble, contribute anything; one not ought to seek obedience to God thinking God will reward them with glory, obedience is for obedience's sake. There are hungry mouths, feed them. There are thirsty people, give them drink. There are people in need of medical care, care for them. The faithful servant does not turn to his master asking for reward for doing the bare minimum of his duty, but carries out his duty for duty's sake, out of love for his master.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dcalling]

Mark, Matthew and Luke are called the Synoptic Gospels, they are considered more informative when trying to understand the Historical Jesus pbuh.

Luke 9:22 - 2 things here:

Firstly Luke is writing decades after everything happened, he's a non eyewitness and we have no clue who he's getting this information from. Scholars say he copied Mark and added things.

Secondly, let's just pretend Luke was actually there and Jesus pbuh actually said these things; What reason does Jesus pbuh give for these things to happen. Where in Luke's Gospel does it explain, to die for the sins of the World. Please show me if you can.

Will I take on your challenge It was actually a good read through the Gospel.

I only read Matthew, I am sure the same existed in the other book.
"As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified. "(Jesus said in Matt 26)

And Matt 26:31, Jesus told the dispels he will be killed but will risen again:
Then Jesus told them, “This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written:
“‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’
32 But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.”

And later Jesus trying to ask God not to let this happen, but he obeyed the will of God
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

And later Jesus said his death is to full fill scriptures:
52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”


And last:
Matt 28
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


So after the death/risen of Jesus he is given authority, and Christians are commanded to preach what he commanded, and baptizing disciples in the name of Father/son/holy spirit. we can now do this because he is killed and risen, as God wished.

I often double check what Christians say. Paul's theology is taught everywhere, just check any Christian website on what you must do to be saved.

Then you should be provide quotes to back up what you are saying instead of just "Some christians said something"

Ok part of works is following the Commandments:


(Matt. 19:16-21) “And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”

Does Paul teach this too?

Where did Paul said not to follow the commandments? I showed you his quotes that he is following, you should also show the scripture to back it up.

On crime and punishment. See further down.

Yes parables, that's fine, but people like isis could say they are direct commandments, they could pick verses here and there from the NT and justify anything they like. They could cite what Christians have done in the past to justify mass murder. This is the point I'm making, don't judge a Religion on the actions of misguided people, Judge Islam on the authentic Scriptures. Qur'an, authentic Hadiths and make sure you understand there is a Historical context that must be examined.
Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years as the Prophet encountered different people and situations. Also Hadiths were collected and cited by men, if anything goes against the Qur'an, then it's rejected. This is where you turn to Scholars who've spent decades studying the Islamic sources.

See above
We keep going over this, and I've asked you to show how Christians use the Gospel to judge....

As Jesus said, Love God with all and Love your others as yourselvf, obey the Lord's commandments and teachings.

And if the Qruan said Torah/Gospel are good to be used, why are you saying the contrary?

So Christianity is like Buddhism then. A way of being good as one sees fit and loving all. This explains all the New Age teachings that are now becoming part of Christianity; self enlightenment and becoming Godlike from within. Sounds like deception from Satan if you ask me.

Here you are twisting again, and I am pretty sure you know it. The commandments are clear, Love God and Love others as yourselve, don't judge, where in the scriptue does it say "being good as one see fit"?

So the Gospel can't stand on it's own. It must follow the Torah. Don't let groups like isis know that :/

So a man who steals an apple to feed himself must pay back 4 apples worth.

You are twisting again. That guy is a rich tax collector, and he paid back 4 fold voluntarily.

That story is not found in the earliest manuscripts.

So again What is the punishment for adultery for a man or woman whose slept with a married person?
What is the punishment for a married person who commits adultery?

God will be the judge of all, and we Christians should forgive the women and let the local law take care.

So how about you? What do you think should happen to the adulteress?

What can I say :/

So god didn't have the answers to these problems. Let tyrants rule and make up the rules.

You earlier said, his Kingdom is in Heaven. Where's Heaven then considering you expect him to come back and rule the Earth?

As I said above, follow the Prophet's example. He lived the Qur'an. Feel free to start a new thread, explaining what the problem with Laws revealed in the 7th Century are in your opinion.

I prefer to live under God's Commandments, in a just society with a head of State, who's following the teachings of Muhammad pbuh. At the present time, there is no such place in the World.

I don't think he will come back and rule the earth, Jesus will come back and lead the true believers away to heaven. Earth and all the rules on it will be destroyed.

No need for a new thread, I will just give 2 examples, according to Islamic law, Adultress should be stoned and thiefs should have their hand cut off, do you think we should apply that cross the world?

 

[dcalling]

Ultimately it is through Allah's Grace and Mercy that any of us can hope to obtain Salvation.

I agree. It is confirmed by the Bible that it is through God's grace that we can be saved. I am just curious if you can find the passage in Quran that say the same.

Here are from NT/OT about how we can't be saved by our works alone:
ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

And some OT too

Job 25:4-6 How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure? Behold, even the moon is not bright, and the stars are not pure in his eyes; how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!”

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.

And those whose scales are heavy [with good deeds] - it is they who are the successful. Qu'ran 23:102

Daniel 5:27 Tekel:
You have been weighed on the scales and found not good enough.

Revelation 6:5
The Lamb opened the third seal. Then I heard the third living being say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse. The rider on the horse held a pair of scales in his hand.

And the weighing [of deeds] that Day will be the truth. So those whose scales are heavy - it is they who will be the successful. Qur'an 7:8

Well, for Revelation 6:5, the scale is definitely not used to weight good deeds, as if you check the next scripture it is used to weight food context is key.

 

[dcalling]

You still didn't show me where does Luke say, Jesus pbuh came to die for the sins of the World. Please show me if you can.

Show me where it says the Messiah would be killed and raised after 3 days.

Paul writes 1 Corinthians 15:
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

And who were the 12?

Provide one instance of any Disciple baptising using that formula.



Matthew 15:24 Jesus answered, “God sent me only to the lost people of Israel.”

He had 12 Disciples, one for each Tribe scattered throughout the Nations. Just show me where he says, he has come to die for the sins of the World using the Synoptic Gospels.

If I found those verses will you believe that Jesus died for our sins?

1 cor 10:25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience.
Romans 5:12-21

This is why many Churches promote, "Reformed doctrine of salvation (the doctrines of grace), justification by faith alone, and the belief that Scripture is the sole infallible source of doctrine and authority."

For 1 Cor 10:25, read the passage directly above it.
I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.

See that? Next time when you quote something, make sure you quote within context.

Allah swt is telling them to judge by the Gospel, and has you've shown, there are no Judgements to be found other than Love.

"... From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. " Qur'an 5:14

Allah swt was helping the Christians of the 7th Century to wake up and smell the coffee, they had lost a lot of what Jesus pbuh taught. They were unable to Judge, and for this reason, many reverted to Islam.

So how much was a non tax collector to pay?

Yes that's a good idea given you appear to have lost a good part of the message.

Why? If they don't follow Jesus they will die and go to hell. That is the judgement. The people are free to do whatever they want in this life, and God's way is not forcing people to do good, but do good with their hearts. Just look at history, many bad people rule, even you admit that there is no good Islmic state you can join. God allows that, and God has his own purpose. What's good in forced good beheavor?

The bigger questions is, when Quran said people of the book should be judged by Torah/Gospel and yet you are claiming they have lost all the judgement.... Why are you contradicting to your scripture? Do you think anyone who hold their scripture true does that?

Whatever the Torah and learned Rabbis says.

Others say the Earth will be made new again, and this is Heaven. Why do Christians differ? What did Jesus pbuh say on the matter?



Adultery & Theft:

Imam Ahmad recalls,
“O Messenger of Allaah, which sin is the worst?” He said, “Setting up a rival to Allaah when He is the One Who created you.” [‘Abd-Allaah] said: “Then what?” He said, “Killing your child for fear that he may eat with you.” [‘Abd-Allaah] said, “Then what?” He said, “Committing adultery with your neighbour’s wife.” And confirmation of that was revealed in the Qur’an:

“And those who invoke not any other ilaah (god) along with Allah, nor kill such person as Allah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse and whoever does this shall receive the punishment” Qur'an 25:68

Before talking about punishments, remember it's only relevant in a Country being run with full Shariah Law as practised by the Prophet pbuh in the 7th Century. That means the citizens are all made aware of the Laws of God. those not wishing to live under such conditions are free to leave

Once this is established and everyone understands, then and only then:

The punishment for a married person of sane mind is severe: 100 lashes and Death by stoning.
The punishment for fornication amongst unmarried couples is 100 lashes only.

This is why people were encouraged to marry when they come of age.

The punishment for one who steals out of poverty is nothing at all. Rather the head of State has to explain why charity is not reaching the poor.

Yahya ibn Abi Kathir reported: Umar ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, said, “Do not cut the hand of the thief who steals dates in the year of famine.”

Source: Muṣannaf Abd al-Razzāq 18371 Umar on Justice: The punishment of theft suspended during a famine

As-Sa’di reported: I asked Ahmad ibn Hanbal about this narration and he said, “No, the hand is not cut for theft when there is a need for that and the people are in famine and hardship.”

The one who steals for profit or personal gain, has the hand cut off provided they are found to be of adult age, sound mind and were not forced into doing it, (bullied etc). The owner must file a report asking for the item back for any punishment to be valid.

The punishments may seem extremely harsh, but they act as a severe deterrent more than anything.

See above, the good beheavior should be done by good will, by inviting God into you so that you do good works naturally, it can never be obtained by force, by law. Do you seriously support cutting people's hands off because they steal? Or kill adulteress (and by encouraging them to marry are you encoruging them to be punished more severaly? isn't it better for some guy to stay single so he won't get killed?) Or kill the people who converted to Islam and then reverted? Is that how you show God is most gracious and merciful?

 

[dcalling]

I'll believe it was written.

Here you go, Jesus said himself.
Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now do you believe it?

Paul doesn't feel God's advice is particularly beneficial. Yet Jesus pbuh made clear nothing was to be taken away or added to the Laws given.

Again, you need to quote scripture instead of just making claims.

I explained, but I don't think you've understood.

I explained this too. Qur'an says the Christians lost a good part of the message. That's why you can't judge and have to rely on the law of the land to deal with criminal.

You are conflicting against your own scripture. Surah 5:47 Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein..... And here you are claim they can't, you really have to deal with it in your heart.

No Laws can truely represent God's word, and people will keep twisting laws with their tongues, you can't use ancient 7th century laws on a morden world. But the word of Gospel can be applied across ages.

So you are rejecting Jesus pbuh? As God according to you, he gave similar commandments in the Torah. Also in the NT:

Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Look at what Jesus said. It is an action on yourself, not others!! That is the bases of Gospel, that it is on you to freely accept it, no compulsion involved. God wants a repentent heart. It is very clear.

Who was killed for reverting to Islam and then leaving? I know plenty of non practising Muslims. They are free to live their lives, and it's only those who have committed treason that can be killed if they were living under a proper Shariah State.

It is also in your own scripture, Surah 4;89 They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among
and it is in authentic hadith.

It does not matter what you think, it matters what your scripture says.

See how confusing your scripture are? Some very peaceful, some rather violent, some in a message of forgiveness, some not so. You said youselve that God is not a source of confusing. See how clear the NT/OT is? when God leaves humans on their own, God clearly told humans not to judge others, because the only source of judgement should be from God, and God alone can judge correctly.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Everything we do as Muslims is for the pleasure of Allah swt. None of it benefits His Majesty, it only benefits us, helping us to get closer to Him:

Speaking as a Christian of the Lutheran tradition, the meaning and purpose of works is neither benefits God's glory, nor does it benefit myself in getting closer to God; because there is no way to get closer to God for God has already made Himself close. We would say: God comes down, God always comes down, we never go up. The reason and meaning of good works is neither for God's benefit (as though He needs it), nor for our own spiritual progression or "improvement" as though we can raise ourselves up closer and further to God through our own effort; instead good works are for the benefit of our neighbor. This falls into the Lutheran dichotomy of Law and Gospel, we speak also of being Coram Deo, and Coram Hominibus, Latin for "before God" and "before man" respectively: that is our place before God is to be understood by the Gospel, our righteousness given to us by grace, apart from ourselves, on the account of Christ alone who makes us just by His own justice/righteousness; that our place before our fellow man is to be understood by the Law, that God commands that we love our neighbor and seek out the good and the right for our neighbor's sake. We don't obey God's commandments because it improves our place before God (such is not possible), we obey God's commandments because there are people who are hungry, thirsty, sick, in prison, who are strangers, who are naked, etc, and it is to them we have been called to live out our lives in obedience to walk in the good works prepared for us.

There is no glory for us in this life, neither is the glory of the future life a reward for the good we did in this one; the glory of the future life is on Christ's account, who having destroyed the power of sin and death has healed and is healing the world and, in and by Him, by the kindness, grace, and mercy of God we ourselves enter into it by union with Christ.

And those whose scales are heavy [with good deeds] - it is they who are the successful. Qu'ran 23:102

This would be an unacceptable position from where I stand theologically. The good works we are called and commanded to do are not, ultimately, so that on the Day of Judgment we might be found worthy; but in order to love our neighbor. When we stand before the Lord on the Day of Judgment, we shall be judged by our works, but not as though there is a scale with good and bad deeds in the balance, but rather the question shall be asked how we treated our neighbor, how did we treat the least of these? He shall say, "I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was naked, I was a stranger, I was in prison", "Whatever you did/did not do to the least of these you did/did not do them unto Me". It is not our works that we shall cling to on the Last Day, because if we are truly honest with ourselves we must admit that we are not obedient, we have no loved our neighbor as ourselves, we have not loved God with all our heart, strength, soul, and mind; we have, rather, as the Prophet Isaiah says, "Each gone our own way", we have not sought God, we discover in light of God's law that the word of the Prophet Jeremiah is true, "The heart is wicked and desperately sick, who can understand it?"

If left solely up to my own deeds, I should expect myself to be among those on the left-hand, among the tares and the goats, those who saw the hungry, the thirsty, the hurting, the suffering, and did nothing. And that is to my own grief and sorrow over my sin, it is in light of this from whence repentance springs, whereby I confess, "I have sinned against You in thought, word, and deed, by what I have done and by what I have left undone." "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner." If I so desired I could try to boast in my own efforts, and say, "But, see, here I did this" and "But, see, there I did that", but that is ultimately dishonest, because between here and there, and this and that, how many were there that needed love that I did not love? How many did I fail to notice? How many were there that I was too busy for, or said I would put it off until the morning? How many times did I have the opportunity to love, and did not? How many times did I have the opportunity to be there fore someone and didn't? If there are scales, and these scales shall weigh my deeds and misdeeds, if I am truly honest with myself then I must admit, I have failed far more times than I have succeeded. And so, on that Day, all shall be laid bare, all will stand naked, we will have nothing of our own success or glory or importance to cover us then--but we shall all stand, stripped to the honest and bare truth of ourselves, before He who sees and knows the hearts of all.

On that Day, I will not be able to say, "Lord, Lord! Did I not..." I will only be able to say, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

How does an atheist like Bill Gates, who gives Millions to good causes differ on the day he returns to his Lord, compare to a Christian that relied on grace alone?

In terms of moral ability and capacity, not much. Both the Christian and the atheist will depend on the same grace, and it will be on account of the same Christ if either/both share in the life of the Age to Come. It will neither be Bill's good charity nor my particular adherence to certain theological propositions which will matter in the end. Bill and I will stand before the same Judge, as sinners, and it will be on Christ's account, by His death and resurrection, and the kindness and love of God that matters in the end. My hope is in Christ, I'm banking on mercy; and by the promises of God through His Gospel my trust is in what He has done in and by Christ, for the world--my faith is in Christ, and it is Christ alone in which I have any confidence to stand on that future Day, not myself. Does that put me in a better position than an atheist? I'd say no, in that when it comes down to it neither of myself or the atheist can trust in how well we lived our lives, and, ultimately, all that matters is God's goodness, love, and grace in Jesus. Will the atheist be saved in the end? I certainly hope and pray that all will be saved in the end. The same grace that I hope for myself, is the same grace that I hope for for everyone else; the same Jesus I look to and have faith in to save me is the same Jesus I look to and have faith in to save you, to save everyone.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

and I know for a fact he didn't.

Oh come now, you no more know for a fact that He didn't than I know for a fact that He did. The statement is in violation of your faith tradition, and so you do not believe it; the statement is in complete affirmation of my faith tradition; and so I do believe it. Religiously based rationales for accepting or rejecting a thing does not get us to a place of absolute certainty where one can state, "I know for a fact"; and such would be completely disingenuous.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

It is based on what I consider to be the word of God found in the Qur'an. I am as certain as you are of your Doctrines.

Then you don't know for a fact, you believe. I don't know for a fact that what I believe is true, I believe that what I believe is true.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dcalling]

No because even if he really did say that, and I know for a fact he didn't. How do you get..

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

to equal

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for the World for the remission of sins.

He can't save you if you don't accept him. It is a free gift and you have to accept. He has clearly said his blood is for remission of sins, do you accept that gift?

The passages clearly show paul justified eating what you like for the whole Earth belongs to God. In other words, it's fine to eat with pagans as long as they don't make a point of explaining the meal is in honour of idols.

Even with the context that says only if it is for the good of the people? It is the same thing that a theift for survival is legal.

You've already shown you can't judge and have to let non Christians show you the way. You ignore the verse explaining you lost a good part

You can't govern a Society based on the Gospel. You have to ask the Devil to help you, to help legalise gay marriages, to run your school curriculum, teaching your children there is no God, just random chances and evolution. You need them to modify your foods with chemicals and pesticides, to give you medicine to help counter the effects of the chemicals, you need them to collect your taxes to fund wars abroad, you even need them to keep you entertained through the box on the wall. There's much more they help you with, keeping you in perpetual debt etc etc

While, if you can't acknowledge that the Quran said Christians should be judged by Gospel and Jews judged by Torah, if you keep denying your own book, I don't know what you can stand on any more. Do you really trust God?

No because he said not to change anything from the Law, the Torah. The Laws on dealing with theft, adultery etc are detailed, but you reject them, thereby rejecting Jesus pbuh.

Context:

4:88 Why should you divide yourselves into two groups regarding hypocrites (among you)? GOD is the one who condemned them because of their own behavior. Do you want to guide those who are sent astray by GOD? Whomever GOD sends astray, you can never find a way to guide them.

4:89 They wish that you disbelieve as they have disbelieved, then you become equal. Do not consider them friends, unless they mobilize along with you in the cause of GOD. If they turn against you, you shall fight them, and you may kill them when you encounter them in war. You shall not accept them as friends, or allies.

4:90 Exempted are those who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you wishing not to fight you, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

4:91 You will find others who wish to make peace with you, and also with their people. However, as soon as war erupts, they fight against you. Unless these people leave you alone, offer you peace, and stop fighting you, you may fight them when you encounter them. Against these, we give you a clear authorization.

4:92 No believer shall kill another believer, unless it is an accident. If one kills a believer by accident, he shall atone by freeing a believing slave, and paying a compensation to the victim's family, unless they forfeit such a compensation as a charity. If the victim belonged to people who are at war with you, though he was a believer, you shall atone by freeing a believing slave. If he belonged to people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, you shall pay the compensation in addition to freeing a believing slave. If you cannot find* a slave to free, you shall atone by fasting two consecutive months, in order to be redeemed by GOD. GOD is Knower, Most Wise.

4:93 Anyone who kills a believer on purpose, his retribution is Hell, wherein he abides forever, GOD is angry with him, and condemns him, and has prepared for him a terrible retribution.

4:94 O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

4:95 Not equal are the sedentary among the believers who are not handicapped, and those who strive in the cause of GOD with their money and their lives. GOD exalts the strivers with their money and their lives above the sedentary. For both, GOD promises salvation, but GOD exalts the strivers over the sedentary with a great recompense.

Yes and it's clear.

Confusion is with you.

Yes you've done a great job showing how clear it is.

Why do you say I rejected Jesus? Is that because I don't hold his word that we should Love God, Love our neighbors? Is that because I don't hold his word that we should pray and love our enemies? Do you believe them?

 

[habibii zahra]

the true path is jesus so as Mohammad..the salvation realized by following jesus so as Mohammad..reaching the paradise is to follow jesus so as Mohammad

 

[HeLeadethMe]

the true path is jesus so as Mohammad..the salvation realized by following jesus so as Mohammad..reaching the paradise is to follow jesus so as Mohammad

How can that be since Mohammad did not follow Jesus.

 

[macek]

...
Qur'an 4:157 And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Who says he was crucified? The 4 Gospels of course. Are the 4 gospels from Allah swt? NO obviously not.

Are you saying Jesus was not crucified? How is salvation to come upon mankind if the original sin is not paid for?

How does an atheist like Bill Gates, who gives Millions to good causes differ on the day he returns to his Lord, compare to a Christian that relied on grace alone?

Forgive me for cherry-picking but Bill Gates is far, far from being a good person helping others as he likes to portray himself... Go and watch a few vids form David Icke and you will understand, he is intentionally poisoning children with his vaccines..

 

[Robban]

Are you saying Jesus was not crucified? How is salvation to come upon mankind if the original sin is not paid for?



Forgive me for cherry-picking but Bill Gates is far, far from being a good person helping others as he likes to portray himself... Go and watch a few vids form David Icke and you will understand, he is intentionally poisoning children with his vaccines..

The Earth was cursed, man would have to work his cobblers off to make a living, woman would give birth with pain.

Or so it goes.

Has anything changed?