How did the universe come into existence?

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Ed1wolf

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I love this because you are so painfully close to describing evolution here. :tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:
No, if it had been evolution then the eye would not quite be what the organism needed for its particular ecological niche since it would be in the process of transitioning.
 
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DogmaHunter

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We inherited the DNA of the great apes from the sons of God (prehistoric people) who were NOT Humans (descendants of Adam). The sons of God married and produced hybrid humans Gen 10:10 with the superior intelligence they inherited from Adam AND the DNA of prehistoric people. The prehistoric people could have children with Humans even though they were NOT Humans. Gen 6:4 They were THEIR kind or the kind the Trinity created from water. Gen 1:21 Humans are HIS kind or the kind Jesus (Lord God) made with His own Hands from the dust of the ground. Gen 2:7 In this manner God has produced some 7.4 Billion living Humans alive today, when there was only 1 Million prehistoric people alive, when the Ark arrived. It's all a part of God's perfect plan for filling Heaven with perfect Humans, made perfect in Christ. God Bless you

That's it. i'm convinced.

:rolleyes:
 
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DogmaHunter

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No, if it had been evolution then the eye would not quite be what the organism needed for its particular ecological niche since it would be in the process of transitioning.

Actually, the exact opposite is true.

Any organism or part thereof is in constate state of "transitioning". And that "transitioning" follows whatever changes are happening around it, in the habitat, in the environment.

So at any given point, we expect to see organisms that are well adapted to the environment they find themselves in.

It sounds like you need to brush up on biology a bit.
 
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Dave Ellis

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FYI, Many of the things i post happened long ago, BEFORE education and science made their discoveries. I have posted God's Truth which AGREES with Science and History and you have NOT offered ANY evidence except your own personal opinion that I'm wrong. You have dismissed my evidence on a Christian board by claiming tht God's Truth is NOT evidence. Get real.

You haven't provided a shred of evidence, you've provided claims and bible verses that have been reinterpreted to mean what you want them to mean.

Empty claims and snippets out of a book are not evidence.
 
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Aman777

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That's it. i'm convinced.

:rolleyes:

Good. Tell you friends that there is NO way ancient men, who lived thousands of years BEFORE Science could have possibly known that prehistoric people and Humans (descendants of Adam) could have children together. (His and Their kinds) Thus, there would be NO reason for them to explain that in Genesis 6:1-4. God had many reasons for telling us this so long ago. it's because He is pouring out His Spirit (The Spirit of Truth) upon ALL flesh because we are living in the last days of this Earth.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon ALL flesh:

So get ready to learn God's Truth in Genesis, which will be discovered by Science, in the last days of this Earth, and leave you no choice. God Bless you
 
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Aman777

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You haven't provided a shred of evidence, you've provided claims and bible verses that have been reinterpreted to mean what you want them to mean.

Empty claims and snippets out of a book are not evidence.

They are when NO one can refute them Scripturally, scientifically or historically. I can refute yours in every way, but you cannot refute a single jot nor tittle of God's Truth, which AGREES in every way with every other discovered Truth. Please continue to try and everyone will see your frustration and they will come to know God's Truth MUST agree with every other discovered Truth or it is NOT God's Truth. God Bless you
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
So you don't consider Aristotle a reputable source for the laws of logic?


de: Aristotle's laws of logic are:

1) Law of Contradiction
2) Law of Excluded Middle
3) Principle of Identity

The "law of causality" is not one of Aristotle's three laws. So, try again.
Causality is a corollary of the law of contradiction. And it is a law of logic itself according to "Aristotle: Selections" edited by W. D. Ross.


ed: Not hardly near the amount of evidence. Besides the millions of people who claim to have had a relationship with Him,
1) Fallacious appeal to popularity.
2) You're ignoring the multitude of other gods that people have claimed to have a relationship with as well, but you don't believe exist.
This is just one thread of many more threads of evidence as I have explained.


ed: there is also ancient historical documents that were written close to the time of events that could only have been accomplished by a being such as God.

de: Such as? And how do you verify and prove those writings?
Read the Bible. They have been shown to be accurate thru many archaeological discoveries. I am not saying I can PROVE it. My point is just that there is historical evidence for the Christian God.


ed: And also there is historical evidence that a man claiming to be that Gods son was killed and rose bodily from the dead.

de: 1) No there isn't. In fact we have no independent contemporary evidence that shows he existed at all.
Fraid so. And the majority of scholars believe He existed. Besides Josephus and others, there is also I Corinthians 15:3-5, where Paul quotes a Pre-Pauline (and therefore independent of the NT) hymn that many scholars believe was composed within 5 years of the resurrection.
 
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Ed1wolf

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de: Quite often the religious morality is the viewpoint a society has to be dragged kicking and screaming away from in order to advance into a more civilized society. While no system is perfect, I'd take secular morality over religious morality any day.

That is true of most religions but not Christianity and Christian morality. As I stated before Western Civilization was primarily founded on Christian moral principles. Principles such as those in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights of the US. While Europe has become more secular it still borrows from its Christian past on many of these principles, though in the areas of free speech, the right to life for humans of all ages including the extremely young, and property rights, they have weakened and started to abandon these. This can also be seen happening in the US especially in the more secular Democratic party. They have started to limit free speech especially on college campuses, and freedom of religion was starting to be restricted under the Obama Administration. And of course, the right of life of the unborn. Purely secular countries like the early French Republic, Nazi Germany, and all the Communist countries have much less freedoms and treat life much more cheaply than nations who were founded on Christian principles.



de: Sometimes popularity is correct, however something is not correct because it is popular. You're saying the fact a lot of people believe something is evidence that it's true, it's not.

98% of scientists accept climate change because there's an overwhelming preponderance of evidence showing the climate is changing. When a huge majority of people who are experts in a field and are familiar with the evidence agree, that doesn't make them right, however it does provide reason to accept the claim pending further evidence.

Well, that may not be the best analogy. A better analogy would be a case where there are two email addresses, one has 2000 emails in it, the other has only one. Which one is most likely to a real person with an email account?



de: The bible makes no claims about an expanding universe or one that is cooling. And yes, I know you're going to link some reinterpreted bible verses to support your case, and don't bother. I've heard that one before, and those verses don't say anything of the sort.

Fraid so, if you look at the passages in the original Greek and Hebrew and also with the understanding that God has revealed some of His truths in His other book, Nature, it can be shown quite easily that the Bible DOES teach these things about the universe they are plainly within the meanings of the greek and Hebrew.



de: The evidence is right there for you to see, if you want to dismiss it because it counters your beliefs, that's your prerogative.

Only highly speculative evidence, he did not present a single piece of empirically observed evidence of these changes or even any process that could cause these huge changes.


de: Asserting intent is meaningless when you haven't demonstrated the being in question actually exists, much less what he wants to do.

How do archaeologists determine that a human made the scraper rock or an arrowhead and they are not just naturally made rocks shaped by natural processes.
 
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Gene Parmesan

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Not sure what you mean, checkmate, atheists? please explain. Thank you.
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Peter1000

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Because, again, you're looking at it as an end goal when it's not. If their current eyes are good enough for their purposes, there's no pressure to evolve better eyes.

Likewsie, there's a lot more that goes into a species than how good their eyes are. Just because they see very well doesn't mean they're going to dominate the world.... The fact you have to overblow everything as you are shows you don't have much of a defense. This is a simple process for which we have mountains of evidence. We know it happened, and how it happened. Deal with it.
Is it possible that a Superior Being created the eye for each animal just the way it is, without evolving from something simpler. Since you are willing to say that the intermediary eyes in the video is good enough for what they need, so they need not evolve anymore, can there be any room for creation for an exact purpose rather than evolution?

If there is no room for a Superior Being and creation, then you must take any animal and show me the evidence of how their eye evolved from simple to more complex. Let's take the squid. They have a superior eye. What evidence do you have that they once had an inferior eye.

Your speculation and evolutionary theory is irrevelent, I want hard fast evidence. This must be a simple task because just above you say we have mountains of evidence. We know it happened, and how it happened. So tell me, with evidence in hand, how it happened with the squid, or any other animal of your choosing. Start at the beginning and bring us through to today. The eye is a good test case. Good luck.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Your speculation and evolutionary theory is irrevelent, I want hard fast evidence. This must be a simple task because just above you say we have mountains of evidence. We know it happened, and how it happened. So tell me, with evidence in hand, how it happened with the squid, or any other animal of your choosing. Start at the beginning and bring us through to today. The eye is a good test case. Good luck.

The burden of proof is on the person claiming that the eye couldn't have evolved naturally.
 
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Dave Ellis

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They are when NO one can refute them Scripturally, scientifically or historically. I can refute yours in every way, but you cannot refute a single jot nor tittle of God's Truth, which AGREES in every way with every other discovered Truth. Please continue to try and everyone will see your frustration and they will come to know God's Truth MUST agree with every other discovered Truth or it is NOT God's Truth. God Bless you

You haven't refuted anything I've said.

Likewise, you haven't given me anything to refute. As the old saying goes, that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Once you actually provide some evidence, then I'll have something to accept or refute.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Causality is a corollary of the law of contradiction. And it is a law of logic itself according to "Aristotle: Selections" edited by W. D. Ross.

No it's not, at best it's a corollary of identity. However, we're still talking apples and oranges. You're applying rules that govern inside the universe to the universe itself.

It should be plainly obvious that something like cause and effect is temporal in nature. You need a flow of time for an effect to happen after a cause. If time started with the big bang, there is no "before" for a cause to exist in. As such, cause and effect break down because there is no time for cause and effect to occur in.

This is just one thread of many more threads of evidence as I have explained.

Except this does not count as evidence. They're simply examples of fallacious reasoning.

Read the Bible. They have been shown to be accurate thru many archaeological discoveries. I am not saying I can PROVE it. My point is just that there is historical evidence for the Christian God.

I have read the bible. The fact that real cities are mentioned in the bible doesn't mean god is real. They were writing stories about the area that they live in, of course they'd refer to real cities.

The same way Spiderman is set in New York City. If a thousand years from now archaeologists dug up parts of New York, would that provide evidence for the existence of Spiderman just because the story is set in a real place?

And besides, you said the scriptures could have only been done by a god. Are you saying the people of the time were incapable of writing a story about the city they lived in and the surrounding towns and countries?

Fraid so. And the majority of scholars believe He existed. Besides Josephus and others, there is also I Corinthians 15:3-5, where Paul quotes a Pre-Pauline (and therefore independent of the NT) hymn that many scholars believe was composed within 5 years of the resurrection.

Josephus was not a contemporary, and virtually all scholars agree his writings were edited by later Christian scribes to include the small parts about Jesus.

The bible also can not be used as evidence for the bible. Even with that, quoting a hymn doesn't prove anything.
 
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Peter1000

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There are plenty of things the bible has clearly wrong, there are some things the bible has right, and there's a mountain of things you can interpret the bible to mean by using language gymnastics.

Just because you can pull a snippet out of the bible and twist it to somehow show some dubious correlation to modern science, doesn't mean the bible is anything special. If the bible was special, we'd have known about those things thousands of years ago, rather than tailoring the bible to say what modern day scientists have discovered.
It is interesting to try to reconcile the bible with science. We do not tailor the bible to say what modern day scientists have discovered, mainly because what they discover today will be completely overturned tommorrow and replaced with another theory.

But one day religion and science will fit together like a hand in the glove. Both sides will know the full truth and then you and I will shake hands and be friends.

If it is all natural, I will have to confess to you, and if it is God-centered you will have to confess to God and repent, and move toward Him.
 
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Peter1000

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Dogma Hunter finds the above funny. I suppose he doesn't know that Adam was made to live forever and he lived from BEFORE the big bang of our cosmos until the 6th Day when he and Eve were born again Spiritually. Gen 5:1-2 Adam lived for more than 10 Billion years BEFORE the last universal common ancestor appeared in the water on Planet Earth. Wonder if Dogma is also unaware that Christians will REGAIN our perfect bodies and that we will live FOREVER in Heaven with Jesus?
I am unaware of Adam living before the big bang of our cosmos, until the 6th day when he and Eve were born again Spiritually. Does the bible actually say the Adam live for more than 10 Billion years before the last universal common ancestor appeared in the water on planet earth (Genesis 5:1-2???) Genesis 5:1-2 talk about the generations of Adam and that he lived about 800 years. Not sure what you are saying here?
 
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Peter1000

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We inherited the DNA of the great apes from the sons of God (prehistoric people) who were NOT Humans (descendants of Adam). The sons of God married and produced hybrid humans Gen 10:10 with the superior intelligence they inherited from Adam AND the DNA of prehistoric people. The prehistoric people could have children with Humans even though they were NOT Humans. Gen 6:4 They were THEIR kind or the kind the Trinity created from water. Gen 1:21 Humans are HIS kind or the kind Jesus (Lord God) made with His own Hands from the dust of the ground. Gen 2:7 In this manner God has produced some 7.4 Billion living Humans alive today, when there was only 1 Million prehistoric people alive, when the Ark arrived. It's all a part of God's perfect plan for filling Heaven with perfect Humans, made perfect in Christ. God Bless you
We (humans?) inherited the DNA of the great apes from the sons of God (prehistoric people). So are you saying that we humans evolved from the great apes?????
 
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Dave Ellis

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That is true of most religions but not Christianity and Christian morality. As I stated before Western Civilization was primarily founded on Christian moral principles. Principles such as those in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights of the US.

Complete and utter nonsense. Christianity has no good moral principles that are completely unique to Christianity, and couldn't be found in cultures that predated Christianity.

If the Christians came up with a set of moral ideas that they invented, you can claim it as christian morality. If they have the same basic moral principles as any other culture before or since then, then you have secular morality.

I'd argue the principles that are unique to Christianity are the ones that need to be done away with, as they are ultimately harmful.

While Europe has become more secular it still borrows from its Christian past on many of these principles, though in the areas of free speech, the right to life for humans of all ages including the extremely young, and property rights, they have weakened and started to abandon these.

There is no right to free speech in christian scriptures, and in many if not all christian theocracies free speech was never part of the law. In fact, speaking out against the church in many cases would lead to your torture or execution.

Likewise, there is no right to life spelled out in christian scripture. There is a prohibition against murder, however apart from that people are getting killed all over the place in the bible, many times on the command of god himself.

This can also be seen happening in the US especially in the more secular Democratic party. They have started to limit free speech especially on college campuses, and freedom of religion was starting to be restricted under the Obama Administration.

The democratic party has not been responsible for any limitation of speech on a college campus. Some colleges cancelled talks due to protests, however the democratic party is completely unrelated to the operation or management of those institutions.

Lastly, your claim that freedom of religion was starting to be restricted under the Obama administration is absurd. Can you provide a single example of someone not being allowed to belong to a religion of their choice or worship as they want due to one of Obama's actions?

And of course, the right of life of the unborn. Purely secular countries like the early French Republic, Nazi Germany, and all the Communist countries have much less freedoms and treat life much more cheaply than nations who were founded on Christian principles.

Nazi Germany was not a secular country. For example, one of the first things Hitler did while in office was turn over control of the schools to the Catholic Church. Likewise, Hitler was a self professed Catholic, and even if you dispute that you can't argue that well over 90% of the German population identified as Christian at the time.

I do notice however you leave out modern day secular countries... like the Scandinavian countries, Modern Germany, France, Australia, Canada and the United States itself. The fact they are secular is one reason why they have been successful. Show me one theocracy which has a good human rights record.

Well, that may not be the best analogy. A better analogy would be a case where there are two email addresses, one has 2000 emails in it, the other has only one. Which one is most likely to a real person with an email account?

There's not enough evidence either way to know based on what you gave me.

Fraid so, if you look at the passages in the original Greek and Hebrew and also with the understanding that God has revealed some of His truths in His other book, Nature, it can be shown quite easily that the Bible DOES teach these things about the universe they are plainly within the meanings of the greek and Hebrew.

Sure, if you reinterpret them to mean what you want.

Only highly speculative evidence, he did not present a single piece of empirically observed evidence of these changes or even any process that could cause these huge changes.

It's a five minute youtube clip, not a scientific paper or lecture. You asked how it happened and I showed you a clip with a brief overview. If you really think all of the evidence we have was thrown into that clip, I'm not really sure what to say to you.

How do archaeologists determine that a human made the scraper rock or an arrowhead and they are not just naturally made rocks shaped by natural processes.

Because we can identify things that we make, and we contrast them with nature.

If nature was designed, then there would be no contrast to differentiate anything. You'd have intelligently designed rocks, intelligently designed sand, trees, plants and everything else. An intelligently designed arrowhead would blend in, we couldn't tell if it was us or god that make it. As such, it would simply appear as a natural formation.
 
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