Universalism...why not?

[ClementofA]

Three words.....

Unitarian Universalist Bahai

Six words...as in 666...

Hell fire - Inquisitions - Crusades - Dark Ages

The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment

 

[ClementofA]

Interesting speculation but hardly the opinion of Bible scholars, seminaries, or just about any Christian denomination you can name. How do you account for you being in such a tiny minority and so far out on that limb if it's so obvious as you think?

Tiny minority? Can you cite any polls in support of that claim?

"See also: J.W. Hanson. Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First 500 Years."

Christian Universalism - Wikipedia

"Yes, there are Christian Universalists– and they’re not a new thing. Christian Universalists existed among the early church, contributed to Christian thought well throughout the rest of history, and seem (by my unscientific observation) to be a growing number today."

Why Some Christians Are Universalists (Letting Go of Hell Series)

Though i'm not aware of there being many outspoken universalists in the church during the times of the Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of heretics at the stake & Dark Ages ;

 

[ClementofA]

Universal salvation makes righteousness and obedience meaningless.

A number of the Early Church Fathers didn't think so:

The Church Fathers on Universalism

 

[The Times]

Six words...as in 666...

Hell fire - Inquisitions - Crusades - Dark Ages

The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment

So do you regard the Revelation of Jesus Christ that John wrote about as six words also?

 

[The Times]

Christian Universalists existed among the early church, contributed to Christian thought well throughout the rest of history, and seem (by my unscientific observation) to be a growing number today."

I agree with you that Unitarian Universalists Bahais are growing in numbers, that was always prophesied and expected at the latter times when the anthropos of sin sits in the temple of God, claiming to be God.

So you think the church is getting Holier?

 

[ClementofA]

I agree with you that Unitarian Universalists Bahais are growing in numbers, that was always prophesied and expected at the latter times when the anthropos of sin sits in the temple of God, claiming to be God.

That quote you responded to was not mine & said nothing about Bahais.

I wonder how many people have left the church due to the endless hell teaching. Or how many millions decided to reject the gospel because of it.

Of course there are many preachers today in various denominations who seldom if ever speak a word about endless hell. It's like it doesn't even exist, even when it's part of the official denomination doctrine that they haven't yet had the time or inclination to erase.

 

[The Times]

That quote you responded to was not mine & said nothing about Bahais.

I wonder how many people have left the church due to the endless hell teaching. Or how many millions decided to reject the gospel because of it.

Of course there are many preachers today in various denominations who seldom if ever speak a word about endless hell. It's like it doesn't even exist, even when it's part of the official denomination doctrine that they haven't yet had the time or inclination to erase.

Three questions we all need to answer....

1 Are we obligated to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ?

2 Do we regard Jesus Christ as the final authority in all matters?

3 Do we preach against the sins of the world for the losts sake?

I say Yes Yes Yes in Jesus Christ to all the above.

What do you say to the above questions...

Is it Yes Yes Yes in Christ Jesus?

 

[The Times]

The doctrine of Unitarian Universalism is not a new idea, its origins comes from the eastern religions, such the Bahais.

I will highlight the differences.....

Firstly.......
Unitarian Universalism, and in particular Universalism, is a United States phenomena. American Unitarianism developed and grew out of the liberal college and liberal university influenced area of Boston, and Universalism grew as a grassroots movement, born on the shores of New Jersey.

Secondly.....
Baha'i has its roots in the eastern religions and has its origins in the revelations of the prophet Bahá'u'lláh, who Baha'is regard as the most recent in a long line of ancient prophets including: Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Christ and Muhammad.

Thirdly.....
Baha'is recognize a universal God, Unitarian Universalism has members who have various theological positions ranging from atheists to polytheists and pantheists.

Lastly......
Baha'is rely on the revelations of their prophet and his appointed guardian, while Unitarian Universalists are encouraged to apply their own knowledge and experience into the interpretation of sacred writings and regard religious truth as continuing to grow and evolve.

Unitarian Universalists do not have a deity figure like Jesus Christ to rely upon as the final authority in matters, instead they rely on their own subjective world views in determining subjective truths that change with the times and this entails their progressive liberal ideology, in vast contrast to the faith once given to the saints of Jesus Christ.

Therefore Unitarian Universalists are progressive liberals who have absolutely no intention of being obligated to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ. They are just not accountable to God or his Christ, because they do NOT recognise any obligation, to the WILL of God. Which is why Jesus would say many will say Lord Lord Lord in the final days and I will tell them plainly, I never knew you, you evildoers, away from me. Then Jesus says that only those who do the WILL of the Father will be saved.

Lastly, we see Unitarian Universalist embracing the sins of the world instead of preaching against it for the sake of the lost. It is the case of the blind leading the blind.

I believe that this is the strong delusion that is encroaching on Orthodox Christianity, from within and without.

Now as far as the thread title is concerned....

Universalism...Why not?

The way I read into this divergent Unitarian Universal Bahai gospel, in vast contrast to the gospel of Jesus Christ, is as follows....

Apostacy...why not?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Why did you think that I was labelling you in particular. For your information, I was labelling Universalism for what it is and the Theologians who push it are from the Liberal Theological circles.

My reply to you was to benefit you, so that I had hoped that you would have understood the position that you are supporting is how this particular theological circle is labelled by other theologians.

Your conclusions or even my conclusions with supporting versus is not what is being contended here, rather what is in contention is between the Orthodox views of the church fathers and the modern age Unitarian Universalism views, which has its roots in the cult of Liberal Theology and is a form of Unitarian faith movement that is diametrically opposed to the church fathers and is inspired by a Persian guru named Bahá'u'lláh.

Unitarian Universalism, and in particular Universalism, is a United States phenomena. American Unitarianism developed and grew out of the liberal college and liberal university influenced area of Boston, and Universalism grew as a grassroots movement, born on the shores of New Jersey.

Baha'i has its roots in the eastern religions and has its origins in the revelations of the prophet Bahá'u'lláh, who Baha'is regard as the most recent in a long line of ancient prophets including: Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Christ and Muhammad.

So Unitarian Universalism is really a rebadged and repackaged religious product having its origins in the eastern religions, meant for western consumption. When closely scrutinised Unitarian Universalism is really born out of the false eastern religions.

Baha'is recognize a universal God, Unitarian Universalism has members who have various theological positions ranging from atheists to polytheists and pantheists.

This is why Universalism appeals to members who have absolutely no obligations to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ. When I asked the original poster the question of him being obligated to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ, he would reply at first, that he didn't understand what I was asking him, to then proceed to say that such a covenant doesn't exist in the Holy Bible. This means that upon asking the question to whether a religion is obligated to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ, one can determine a cult religious following compared to the Orthodox Church fathers views in regards to the true apostolic faith.

Baha'is rely on the revelations of their prophet and his appointed guardian, while Unitarian Universalists are encouraged to apply their own knowledge and experience into the interpretation of sacred writings and regard religious truth as continuing to grow and evolve.

So Unitarian Universalists in the absence of a deity figure, are the subjective median where their statements of beliefs are derived from , so that they perfectly match progressive liberalist ideas, whilst denying the authority of Jesus Christ. Like Saint Paul said, the people (anthropos) of sin have a form of godliness but deny the power and authority of God altogether, because they sit in place of God by establishing their own subjective moral views and doctrine in the absence of Jesus Christ, without being obligated to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ.

Thank you for the clarification, but I don't "get" the connection between Baha'i and UU - maybe it's one of those deep level things. However that may be, I have no connection with either party. I find UU repellent, and Baha'i a religion for simpletons. You know, besides the Salvation of All, my Christianity is fairly ordinary. Thanks again for the gracious, informative reply!

 

[Lazarus Short]

Three questions we all need to answer....

1 Are we obligated to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ?

2 Do we regard Jesus Christ as the final authority in all matters?

3 Do we preach against the sins of the world for the losts sake?

I say Yes Yes Yes in Jesus Christ to all the above.

What do you say to the above questions...

Is it Yes Yes Yes in Christ Jesus?

OK, I will be good enough to answer: yes, yes and yes.

Do not think that Laz advocates everyone getting into the Kingdom with a band playing and a rain of rose petals falling. No, I am well aware of the Lake of Fire, Second Death and the terror of judgment. I have proven, I believe, that Hell is an intrusion from paganism. In most cases, "hell" can be safely replaced by "the grave" in the Bible. God's judgments are severe enough without ECT, and I have also pointed out that ECT is both absurd and borderline blasphemous. You see, death is just the creation of Adam in reverse - the body goes to dust, the Spirit returns to God and the soul goes "poof." You must be dead to go to Hell, but you must be alive to be in ECT - sort of like Schrodinger's cat. If that is not absurd enough, you must be alive in Hell/ECT without the Spirit of Life (but you're somehow alive). The Bible nowhere gives you wiggle room to be alive without the Spirit. OTOH, if you say the dead in Hell have the Spirit, you must be saying that parts of God are in Hell. I'm not going there...

 

[Dartman]

A number of the Early Church Fathers didn't think so:

"Church Fathers" are not to be trusted (Acts 20:28-31, 2 Thess 2:1-12), only Jesus, his apostles, and the prophet are trust worthy:
Eph 2:19-20 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

 

[Rajni]

Universal salvation makes righteousness and obedience meaningless.

That hasn't been my experience. I mean, if one approaches God as simply 'fire insurance', then it I can certainly see how it would seem that way.

 

[Dartman]

Universal salvation makes righteousness and obedience meaningless.

That hasn't been my experience. I mean, if one approaches God as simply 'fire insurance', then it I can certainly see how it would seem that way.

Human experience doesn't overrule Scripture;
Ps 145:20 Jehovah preserveth all them that love him; but all the wicked will he destroy.
Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

 

[JacksBratt]

If my child became a wayward soul, as any loving parent I would do everything I could to woo him back to a healthy and restorative place. I would never give up on him. I would put no time limits on my love and patience towards him.

If our Father desires all men to be saved, why can't he continue to work on their souls postmortem?

This is due to the fact that God wants us to want to love Him, want to serve Him, want to obey Him.....

After we die, we will be aware of all things past and present. Especially the awesome unmatched power, righteousness and authority of God.

At this time, no soul would not want to worship, love, respect, obey and serve Him. In fact we would and will be unable to avoid the desire to do so.

Thus, God will not have to "work" on the souls of those who are unrepentant, after death. They will be fully willing to do, then, what they refused to before death.

There is only one window of opportunity in which to accept salvation by faith in Christ, which is our own conscious acceptance of who He is and the desire to love, honor, obey, worship and serve Him of our own accord.

It must be of free will. God does not want robotic servants.

 

[JacksBratt]

That hasn't been my experience. I mean, if one approaches God as simply 'fire insurance', then it I can certainly see how it would seem that way.

I cannot see someone who approaches God as "fire insurance" as being saved.

Think about it. You buy insurance "in case" something happens. Everyone gets fire insurance.

My salvation is not "hey, I don't want to go to hell, so I'll play the game, "In case hell is real" or "now I have my foot in the door of heaven, phewf, that was close".

My salvation is faith in God who, created me for fellowship with Him, is worthy of my worship, praise and servant hood, who loved me so much that He took human form and died for my sins so that I could spend eternity with Him.

It is my love, respect and servant hood that causes me to ask for salvation...

Not just an insurance policy to get me a "get out of hell free card" or pay the fine of a few years in Purgatory......

No, this is serious stuff. You either believe it all, by faith and are humbled by the knowledge of the fact that you have an utterly corrupt soul that will keep you from the place where God intended you to be in the first place.....living free in His presence.

 

[Rajni]

Human experience doesn't overrule Scripture;
Ps 145:20 Jehovah preserveth all them that love him; but all the wicked will he destroy.
Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Scripture has to agree with reality, however, correct? Otherwise it would be just a fairy tale, and I'm sure no one here would want that. And the truth of the matter is, your claim that Universal salvation makes righteousness and obedience meaningless clashes with the reality of the situation.

Let's face it, there are those who really don't want everyone to make it. Therefore, they'll gravitate towards those passages that seem to coincide with that wish. The bible acts as something of a mirror like that. We tend to read into it what's already in our hearts. Sometimes I wonder if the bible is like that by design (actually, that's a little unsettling to consider, so yeah... back to my main point).

Given that there are other verses that, unlike Psalms 145:20, point toward a God whose ways are actually higher than man's ways, the punitive, petty god-as-fire-insurance model doesn't quite hold water. Any frail human can love those who love them back—that's man's way. God can do better than that (go higher than that) and love everyone. Of course, in His case, it helps to be Love itself, which He, fortunately, is.

[By the way, on the non-related technical front, you might want to fix your post, #231, since the quote feature is inaccurately attributing to me your statement about Universalism making righteousness and obedience meaningless.

]

 

[surrender1]

Scripture has to agree with reality, however, correct? Otherwise it would be just a fairy tale, and I'm sure no one here would want that. And the truth of the matter is, your claim that Universal salvation makes righteousness and obedience meaningless clashes with the reality of the situation.

Let's face it, there are those who really don't want everyone to make it. Therefore, they'll gravitate towards those passages that seem to coincide with that wish. The bible acts as something of a mirror like that. We tend to read into it what's already in our hearts. Sometimes I wonder if the bible is like that by design (actually, that's a little unsettling to consider, so yeah... back to my main point).

Given that there are other verses that, unlike Psalms 145:20, point toward a God whose ways are actually higher than man's ways, the punitive, petty god-as-fire-insurance model doesn't quite hold water. Any frail human can love those who love them back—that's man's way. God can do better than that (go higher than that) and love everyone. Of course, in His case, it helps to be Love itself, which He, fortunately, is.

[By the way, on the non-related technical front, you might want to fix your post, #231, since the quote feature is inaccurately attributing to me your statement about Universalism making righteousness and obedience meaningless.

]

Amen!

 

[Hillsage]

Three words.....

'One historical answer'; And one which survives the Church of Rome's attempts to destroy the evidence you now so willingly accept, but obviously wasn't complete enough.

German theologian - Philip Schaff writes :“In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which
four (Alexandria…Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or
Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine
on this subject is unknown.”

( The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge – Vol XII, Baker Book
House, 1950, p. 96.)

Three words....
Unitarian Universalist Bahai

And, One biblical answer;

2CO 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The problem with the church today is, they think that the last days started in our lifetime. Correction, they started in the days of Jesus (Heb1 :2) and the Great Apostacy has been here for 1500 years. And as the book of the Revelation reveals 'those that will be overcomers' won't be the nominal majority.

Eastern religious flavour that is rebaged, repackaged and remodelled for western consumption.

Sorry, but this thread isn't about being our own subjective authority, where we think that we sit in the temple of God having a form of godliness, but denying the authority of Jesus Christ altogether.

This thread has been about twisting 'the truth' of the gospel just enough to cause those, not qualified to discern the 'truth from the deception', to throw the baby out with the bath water IMO.

Three questions for you......

1 Do you believe that if Jesus said something, then he is the final authority in all matters?

2 Are you obligated completely to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ?

3 Do you forsake the progressive liberal ways of this sinful world, by denouncing the sins thereof?

1. Yes
2. Depends on your definition.
3. I'm going to 'assume' that I've done that longer than you've been alive. My profile isn't hiding, like yours, but my assumption still stands.

And now I've refuted two of your last posts and you've ignored my last one. And I really would like you to answer your way out of my take of Mark.

MAR 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:...49 For every one shall be salted with fire,...

This verse is talking to 'the CHOSEN people' of God, about going to hell for having 2 good hands, but 1 bad eye. And what's going to happen there? That bad eye will be dealt with sooooo you can 'enter the kingdom of God with ONE EYE'!!!! Hello church... "EVERY ONE is going to be salted" in purgative "hell fire", getting their sinful parts purged too.

 

[Albion]

Tiny minority? Can you cite any polls in support of that claim?

Polls? There isn't a Christian church that officially teaches that doctrine and just look at how much scraping of the bottom of the barrel for any evidence to the contrary is present in your own post.

"Yes, there are Christian Universalists– and they’re not a new thing. Christian Universalists existed among the early church, contributed to Christian thought well throughout the rest of history, and seem (by my unscientific observation) to be a growing number today."

Not a thing in that paragraph comes close to refuting the statement that Universalists are a tiny minority.

 

[The Times]

Thank you for the clarification, but I don't "get" the connection between Baha'i and UU - maybe it's one of those deep level things. However that may be, I have no connection with either party. I find UU repellent, and Baha'i a religion for simpletons. You know, besides the Salvation of All, my Christianity is fairly ordinary. Thanks again for the gracious, informative reply!

You welcome. I have been following this from my research going back to the 80s. The eastern religions in the 70s, but especially the 80s were being infused within western cultures and lightly sprayed with Jesus, for this is what Unitarian Universalism is. What they have done is to drop off the term Unitarian to bolster their deceptive ploys to conscript more unsuspecting Christians to their ideology and cause.

I endeavoured to give you a heads up as a friendly person who is bating for you and others, who are unsuspecting of these deceptive ploys by Progressive Liberals and Full Preterists who have teamed up to destroy the faith of Jesus Christ and to steal from the unsuspecting their salvation.