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Featured Universalism...why not?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by surrender1, Jun 1, 2017.

  1. God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    4 vote(s)
  2. God can't do what he wants to do.

    2 vote(s)
  3. Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    40 vote(s)
  4. Don't know...never thought about this before.

    3 vote(s)
  1. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

    Eastern Orthodox
    They choose themselves and the world over and above Jesus Christ.

    22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

    Peter had his own personal and selfish desires.

    23Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

    Liberals have the concerns of themselves and the world more so than the concerns of God and his Christ, which is why they side with the world.

    24Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?

    To make compromises with the world and to make one's bed with the world is to forfeit their soul.
  2. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

    Eastern Orthodox
    This is why Dr Walter Martin labelled the Liberals in the 80s, as the cult of Liberal Theology.

    Liberal Theology goes into what is known as Theo Babel and denies everything Orthodox Christianity has historically held strong to.
  3. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

    United States
    I'm sorry, if you disagree with me, then please quote a verse that pertains. John 3:16 says nothing about not being forgiven. As a 'matter of fact' the word forgiven is only in the whole book of John ONCE, but certainly not in that verse or chapter. :idea: He just said if you believe you will never PERISH. Do you know what that means? Perish means you return to dust or ashes in this age you're living in. Do you know the difference between IMMORTALITY and ETERNAL LIFE?

    Romans 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

    Jesus explained this immortality principle to Lazarus's sister. And her answer to Jesus proved she was as clueless as the nominal church of today.

    JOH 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.

    Jesus didn't raise a dead spirit from the grave of Lazarus, he raised a dead body. The same thing that died on the cross. Not His soul, and not His spirit.
    That's the problem with your understanding. The people who weren't "called, drawn, chosen, elected, predestined or ordained TO believe" NEVER HAD THEIR FIRST CHANCE here. You don't understand the plan of God. It was a plan for "the ages". And we still have at least two more following the one Ephesians was written in.

    EPH 2:7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God

    So, just who is God going to "show His IMMEASURABLE saving grace" to, in the ages to come? Certainly not those who are already saved. Like lucky you, I might add, who was given your 'first chance' in this age.
  4. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

    Eastern Orthodox
    Universalism is another label used by Liberal Theologians, we need to understand and to point out what the Univeralism/Liberalism statements of beliefs are ....

    No Theism
    No Incarnation
    No Creation or Fall
    No Virgin Birth
    No Miracles
    No Substitutionary Atonement
    No Resurrection
    No Ascension
    No Objective Moral Standards
    No Effectual Prayer
    No guilt
    No Discrimination

    This where Liberals go into Theo Babel where Matthew didn't write Matthew and Mark didn't write Mark and so on. The purpose is a higher criticism of scripture in order to nullify its purpose, because its purpose doesn't line up with the lifestyle of Liberals and the world, so scripture must be disected and moulded in the image of Liberals and the world at large.

    Here below is the link to an Examination of the Theology of Bishop John Shelby Spong. According to the late Walter Martin Bishop Spong was a front spokesperson for Liberal Theology. Dr Martin wrote about the Kingdom of the Cults in the 80s, which included the cult of Liberal Theology. The cult of Liberal Theology is emerging in the last days as the late Dr Martin had indicated it would, way back in the 80s......


    Are you fully obligated to the blood Covenant of Jesus Christ?
  5. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

    United States
    The 'really smart' pharisees felt the same way about the teachings of Jesus...and then the apostles...and then the church of Rome felt the same way about the disciples...and burned them at the stake for heresy. I'm just quoting scripture. And you????

    Matthew 15:9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'"

    If you can't refute what I say, then accepting the 'possibility' that one might be wrong...just 'might be' smart. Time will tell.
  6. Kerensa

    Kerensa Well-Known Member

    United Kingdom
    Universalism? Why not, indeed? :)

    There is only one reason why anyone believes in eternal punishment for the unsaved. Not "because the Bible says so," because it's "God's word", because of centuries' worth of dogma saying so. No. No matter how sincerely and adamantly and passionately one believes it, there's only one real reason. Fear.

    The doctrine of eternal punishment works entirely by fear. Fear that controls and paralyses and cages the mind of the believer and prevents him or her from even seriously considering that some other teaching might be true and perhaps this one isn't. Fear that drives the believer to infect other minds in turn with the same terror, in the name of "proclaiming the gospel" (which, funnily enough, means "good news").

    Why fear? Because if you are genuinely, utterly convinced that God will inflict everlasting punishment on anyone who doesn't accept the one correct teaching, then if you dare to question any part of that teaching, YOU are putting YOURSELF in danger of that everlasting punishment. So you simply cannot let your mind go there. That's how it works.

    As for the repeated argument "But if everyone is saved, then there's no point to Christ's sacrifice for us on the cross, etc."... oh dear. What a flimsy cover for "But if everyone is saved, then there's no self-satisfaction for us in knowing we're in the exclusive club while everyone we don't agree with is going to burn in hell forever." :p

    We all stand in need of salvation. That's why we have been given a Saviour. Who are we to assert that His salvation falls short of completion? Are sin and human wilfulness really more powerful than God Himself (which they must be, if some people can't or won't be saved and are therefore punished forever)?

    No-one who has truly felt God's love — even for a moment — can go on believing forever that God could ever let ANYONE be permanently lost, that Christ's mission of salvation will ever stop before EVERY heart is purged, transformed, renewed in Him — before "every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear" — no matter how long that may take by human reckoning.

    And that love and that salvation is at work right now in all of us, no matter how mired we are in sin, no matter how long and hard we resist, no matter how desperately we argue (just like the Pharisees) that God is only for us, not for them.

    His love breaks ALL chains — including the chains of our own fear and self-delusion. He is supreme. He will not be denied. He will win (and indeed has already won). He IS saving everyone. Everyone. Everyone.

    Resistance is futile. ;)
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  7. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

    Eastern Orthodox
    God wants to save humanity, but God is only one party to the path to reconciliation through his only begotten Son Jesus Christ. The other party is the individual soul whose free will choice is required to make valid the transaction.

    God can take the world to water, but he can't make them to drink.

    When God offered a plan to save people, God knew that he would be rejected, but that rejection explains why God doesn't always get what he wants for humanity, because his righteousness prevents him from coercing humanity by his unilateral power and will, in order for all of humanity to accept him.

    There exists the war of wills between God and man and that is why Jesus said.....

    "Not every one that says unto me, Lord,Lord, shall. enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does. the will of my Father which is in heaven."

    The war of the wills will get uglier as Liberals peddling Universalism Theology start forcing their worldly will on the sovereign God as depicted in the following versus....

    11“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

    13“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    14For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

    Individuals negating God's will, will face a terrible consequence as a result, because salvation is only legally binding by the two parties agreeing on the conditions and terms of the transaction and that one party cannot coerce the other party in the free will decision making process.

    Universalism peddles a doctrine of coercion against the sovereign God, by saying you will accept us no matter what, because you will accept us.
  8. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

    Eastern Orthodox
    Knowing it and admitting it are two totally different things.

    One day we will all be standing naked (figuratively) before Christ Jesus and give an answer. There will not be any place for people to hide their lies/secrets ;)
  9. surrender1

    surrender1 Newbie

    Like I said, God was not getting his way when my sister was raped.

  10. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

    United States
    You are absolutely correct.
    And, if her rapist never repents, God has appointed His servant, Jesus of Nazareth, as the judge.
    And Jesus will destroy that rapist, and all other sinners, that have refused to repent.
    At THAT point, God will have gotten His way.
  11. surrender1

    surrender1 Newbie

    God does not "get his way" when a human being is destroyed. "As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live." So, you are wrong. God does not "get his way" if someone perishes.

    My sister forgives the guy. She knows he's a broken human being who needs to be restored. She doesn't wish him eternal conscious torment, or annihilation / permanent death. She desires, to the glory of God, that God can somehow repair all that's broken in him that would lead him to a life of violence. Now, if a mere, flawed human being wants this for other humans...and even being the victim herself!...how much more would God want this?
  12. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    This argument is nonsense. It is bandied back and forth by universalists quoting the same arguments over and over as if repetition somehow makes it factual. Here is why I believe in hell. It has nothing to do with fear.
    Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    ..… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שׁאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught about,
    • “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
    Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
    Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
    Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
    “Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
    (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
    G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
    “Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
  13. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

    United States
    I didn't claim God takes pleasure in the death of the wicked. God's way is just.
    Ezek 18:23-32

    23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

    24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

    25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

    26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

    27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

    28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

    29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

    30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

    31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

    Man's theories about what is just, are futile.
    God's declaration of justice should teach us truth.
  14. RayJeena

    RayJeena ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

    United States
    :amen: [​IMG]
  15. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    "Another label"? Clever reply - I post conclusions with supporting verses, and the best you can do is to group me (without knowing my positions on any of the listed issues) with the theo-illogical liberals. I will survive your mud-slinging, but next time, reply to my argument instead of lapsing into fantasy.
  16. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

    United States
    Absolutely right. Now who is the other mythical 'free will' party? Why it's us! And what does scripture say about our 'man's will' and 'God's will' below concerning getting "born" again;

    PHI 2:13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

    JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the WILL of man, but of God.

    And just who goes to HELL here? The Chosen ones;

    MAR 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one will be salted with fire.

    In case you've never figured it out, this verse is talking to Jews 'the CHOSEN people' of God. And it's also about going to hell for having 2 good hands, but 1 bad eye. And what's going to happen there? That 1 bad eye will be dealt with sooooo you can enter the kingdom with ONE EYE!!!! Hello church... And guess what else it says? EVERY ONE is going to be salted in hell fire, getting their sinful parts purged too.
  17. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

    Eastern Orthodox
    Why did you think that I was labelling you in particular. For your information, I was labelling Universalism for what it is and the Theologians who push it are from the Liberal Theological circles.

    My reply to you was to benefit you, so that I had hoped that you would have understood the position that you are supporting is how this particular theological circle is labelled by other theologians.

    Your conclusions or even my conclusions with supporting versus is not what is being contended here, rather what is in contention is between the Orthodox views of the church fathers and the modern age Unitarian Universalism views, which has its roots in the cult of Liberal Theology and is a form of Unitarian faith movement that is diametrically opposed to the church fathers and is inspired by a Persian guru named Bahá'u'lláh.

    Unitarian Universalism, and in particular Universalism, is a United States phenomena. American Unitarianism developed and grew out of the liberal college and liberal university influenced area of Boston, and Universalism grew as a grassroots movement, born on the shores of New Jersey.

    Baha'i has its roots in the eastern religions and has its origins in the revelations of the prophet Bahá'u'lláh, who Baha'is regard as the most recent in a long line of ancient prophets including: Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Christ and Muhammad.

    So Unitarian Universalism is really a rebadged and repackaged religious product having its origins in the eastern religions, meant for western consumption. When closely scrutinised Unitarian Universalism is really born out of the false eastern religions.

    Baha'is recognize a universal God, Unitarian Universalism has members who have various theological positions ranging from atheists to polytheists and pantheists.

    This is why Universalism appeals to members who have absolutely no obligations to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ. When I asked the original poster the question of him being obligated to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ, he would reply at first, that he didn't understand what I was asking him, to then proceed to say that such a covenant doesn't exist in the Holy Bible. This means that upon asking the question to whether a religion is obligated to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ, one can determine a cult religious following compared to the Orthodox Church fathers views in regards to the true apostolic faith.

    Baha'is rely on the revelations of their prophet and his appointed guardian, while Unitarian Universalists are encouraged to apply their own knowledge and experience into the interpretation of sacred writings and regard religious truth as continuing to grow and evolve.

    So Unitarian Universalists in the absence of a deity figure, are the subjective median where their statements of beliefs are derived from , so that they perfectly match progressive liberalist ideas, whilst denying the authority of Jesus Christ. Like Saint Paul said, the people (anthropos) of sin have a form of godliness but deny the power and authority of God altogether, because they sit in place of God by establishing their own subjective moral views and doctrine in the absence of Jesus Christ, without being obligated to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ.
  18. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

    Eastern Orthodox
    Three words.....

    Unitarian Universalist Bahai

    Eastern religious flavour that is rebaged, repackaged and remodelled for western consumption.

    Sorry, but this thread isn't about being our own subjective authority, where we think that we sit in the temple of God having a form of godliness, but denying the authority of Jesus Christ altogether.

    Three questions for you......

    1 Do you believe that if Jesus said something, then he is the final authority in all matters?

    2 Are you obligated completely to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ?

    3 Do you forsake the progressive liberal ways of this sinful world, by denouncing the sins thereof?
  19. The Times

    The Times Well-Known Member

    Eastern Orthodox
    To distinguish whether a Christian religious entity is truly genuine, we need to ask the proponents of such divergent gospels and subjective morality the following questions.....

    1 Do they believe that if Jesus said something, then he is the final authority in all matters?

    2 Are they obligated completely to the blood covenant of Jesus Christ?

    3 Do they forsake the progressive liberal ways of this sinful world, by denouncing the sins thereof?
  20. surrender1

    surrender1 Newbie

    Yep. This guy's a bit delusional.