Universalism...why not?

[Light of the East]

Looking at all the related Scriptures, a covenant IS a contract. It CAN be based on a relationship.

Nope. You are dead wrong. Covenant is about relationship. It can have the details of a contract, but in Scripture, it speaks of two people giving themselves to one another. That is why the marriage analogy is used for our relationship with Christ, in that He is the Bridegroom and we are the bride. This is the language of love, relationship, and intimacy.

You will see things that make the Covenant of God look like a contract in that we, as human beings, take vows to enter the relationship, but it is not a contract. Theologians have described the Trinity as the "Eternal Covenant of Love" between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Is love a contract? Or is it giving yourself to another fully and completely?

One last thing: Covenant is an action of trust wherein two people give themselves to one another with pledges of fidelity. Contracts are made between people who often do not totally trust each other, and the contract language is there to keep both parties from being cheated.

 

[Dartman]

Absolutely. If everyone is going to be saved anyway, what value is righteousness and obedience??

If you were to see the suffering that souls are going through as they are scourged by God's love in punishment for their sins and to change their souls, you would know the answer to this. Just because all will be eventually restored to God does not mean that they get a free pass without any form of scourging for their sins committed in this life.

You have provided no Scripture to support your theory. The Scriptures state clearly, those judged as wicked will be burned up, left neither root nor branch, removed, destroyed, "be no more".... etc.
I will not overlook those clear statements of Scripture on the basis of your claims.

And there are those who want everyone to make it, regardless of the Scriptures that contradict their wishes. The TRUTH is, EVERY Scripture has equal weight, and EVERY Scripture MUST be harmonized. "universal salvation" CANNOT be harmonized with the VAST number of verses that state the wicked will be destroyed. Many stated by Jehovah/YHVH Himself.

Patristic, or Universal Salvation is consistent with God's being and character as revealed in Scripture.

Please show Scripture for this theory also!

 

[Light of the East]

No, a Covenant is a contract in the same way the apostolic Church in Jerusalem understood it as being dedicated with blood, the blood of the lamb as a substitutionary Atonement for those who are called and sanctified in the Lord.

It is a transaction dedicated and paid in full by blood, blood to blood.....

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18Whereupon neither the first testamentwas dedicated without blood. (Hebrews 9:15-18)

Nope. You are also wrong. Covenant is about relationship. It can have the details of a contract, but in Scripture, it speaks of two people giving themselves to one another. That is why the marriage analogy is used for our relationship with Christ, in that He is the Bridegroom and we are the bride. This is the language of love, relationship, and intimacy.

Blood is symbolic of life. The making of all covenants is with blood because life is being given to life. It is symbolic of the totality of giving of one person to another. Contracts are not made with blood. They are made in courts of law. Big difference.

 

[Light of the East]

Please show Scripture for this theory also!

God is love.

Pretty simple, actually.

 

[JacksBratt]

If i were God I'd rather have billions of robot-human androids enjoying heaven forever than seeing freewill-robots tortured in hell forever & ever & ever.

That may be. However, if God wanted robotic humanoids, He would not have had to send Jesus and Jesus would not of had to die on the cross.

I'm sure that this must tell you how important it is to God that the decision is our choice.

God doesn't want anyone to suffer. People keep placing the blame on God, when someone goes to hell. The proper place for the blame is on the person who denied salvation, denied Christ, denied the need for repentance and a humble heart.

Listen, the rope to safety is dangling in and amongst everyone every day of their life. All they have to do is grab on.

 

[Dartman]

Where are the wolves who will come into the Church and teach these damnable things? Are they in the Church as leaders and members, or are they outside the Church and drawing away sheep to themselves to set up false worship? Seems that the Scripture is pretty clear that they are outsiders preying on the sheep.

The opposite is true!!
Acts 20:28-30 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. 29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

II Thessalonians 2 is speaking about the end of the Old Covenant age. It is a continuation of Matthew 23-24 which speaks about all the things that were about to happen to the remnants of the Old Covenant congregation, including the coming of false Messiahs, the destruction of the Temple, etc. Has nothing to do with the true Church which Christ established upon St. Peter.

2 Thess 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him; 2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;
3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for (it will not be,) except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Paul was writing to the BRETHREN, warning them of a FALLING AWAY from the Church! And, the description of that "falling away" matches the last 1900 years of Church history PERFECTLY.

 

[Dartman]

God is love.

Pretty simple, actually.

That verse doesn't explain your theory in the slightest. When coupled with the REST of Scripture, it proves my point.

 

[Light of the East]

You have provided no Scripture to support your theory. The Scriptures state clearly, those judged as wicked will be burned up, left neither root nor branch, removed, destroyed, "be no more".... etc.

I will not overlook those clear statements of Scripture on the basis of your claims.

No Scripture is as clear as you claim it to be. Would you mind giving me an exact reference to the scripture you are quoting? Is it OT or NT? And of whom is it speaking?

 

[Dartman]

Nope. You are dead wrong. Covenant is about relationship. It can have the details of a contract, but in Scripture, it speaks of two people giving themselves to one another. That is why the marriage analogy is used for our relationship with Christ, in that He is the Bridegroom and we are the bride. This is the language of love, relationship, and intimacy.

You will see things that make the Covenant of God look like a contract in that we, as human beings, take vows to enter the relationship, but it is not a contract. Theologians have described the Trinity as the "Eternal Covenant of Love" between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Is love a contract? Or is it giving yourself to another fully and completely?

One last thing: Covenant is an action of trust wherein two people give themselves to one another with pledges of fidelity. Contracts are made between people who often do not totally trust each other, and the contract language is there to keep both parties from being cheated.

John 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

 

[Light of the East]

The opposite is true!!
Acts 20:28-30 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. 29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

2 Thess 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him; 2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;

3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for (it will not be,) except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

Paul was writing to the BRETHREN, warning them of a FALLING AWAY from the Church! And, the description of that "falling away" matches the last 1900 years of Church history PERFECTLY.

Heretics did not stay in the Church. Please go read some Church history. Men like Arias did indeed preach within the Church, but as their heresy gained ground, the Church confronted them and cast them out of the Church. Many other heretics, such as Luther and Calvin, did not wish to stay in the Church, but left of their own accord and set up their own little enclaves of heretics to follow them.

As for your second premise, note that Paul is speaking about the Day of the Lord, which was "at hand" and about to happen. His warning is specific for the believers of that time, and the falling away is speaking about the Jews falling away from their religion and being destroyed for it.

 

[Light of the East]

John 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

Yes, those are covenant vows which we make at baptism when we are united to the Lord. That is how a covenant works - vows are made and we pledge to keep these vows as part of our showing love for the other, just as married people pledge to keep vows between each other, such as love, honor, trust, in sickness and health, riches and poverty.

Before a new believer is baptized into Christ, he recites several vows in which he states he will turn from the pomp and empty promises of the devil and follow Christ. It is part of the covenant-making ritual.

Jesus is simply stipulating the what the covenant vows are for those who enter into the covenant relationship with Him.

 

[Light of the East]

That verse doesn't explain your theory in the slightest. When coupled with the REST of Scripture, it proves my point.

Well, you say that it proves your point, but you don't explain just how it does. Since God is love, He can only act in accordance with what He is. Therefore, in the goodness of God, who is love, all mankind has been redeemed from the effects of sin and the world will one day be restored. That is consistent with the description we have of God as love.

However, simply being redeemed is no guarantee of escaping the scouring of God for one's sins if one does not repent. And the question does remain that when people come into the presence of God, will they turn from their sins or harden themselves so that they are unable to respond to His gracious offer of love? That really is the $64,000 question, isn't it?

We know that it is the will of God that all be saved. (1 Tim. 2:4).
We know that as Adam's sin separated all mankind from God, so the death, burial, and glorious Resurrection of the Last Adam has reunited all mankind to God (Romans 5: 18 - 19).
That which the wicked one plundered and destroyed is restored. Satan has no claim on any soul, is no longer the ruler of this world, and is defeated. His house has been plundered and all souls rescued from the false imprisonment.

So the only real question is how souls respond in the presence of God? Romans 2:13 - 16 tells us that those who never heard of Christ Jesus nor of His Gospel, will be judged on what is in their hearts and how they followed the law of love. So despite the insistence of some that only those who have heard and made a conscious "decision for Jesus" shall be saved, we see that God's love is much, much greater than that. And these verses infer that there will be, for those pagans who were with a good and true heart, seeking God, be given an opportunity to respond in love to God and enter into union with Him.

In other words ... this life is not the last stop nor all that there is.

 

[The Times]

That is why the marriage analogy is used for our relationship with Christ, in that He is the Bridegroom and we are the bride.

A relationship is a result of a legally binding union between a husband and a wife. In Jewish law, the marriage is a legally binding union. You cannot have a relationship without a marriage contract, otherwise it would be considered an illegal union out of wedlock.

The bridegroom established a legal marital union dedicated by blood. The means of transacting or binding that union legally before God the Father, is throughout the old and new testament dedicated by blood, in that without blood there exists no legally binding union, let alone a legitimate relationship.

The Hebrews writer who is writing on behalf of all the Church in Jerusalem in Hebrews 9:14-18 clearly defines the transaction from old to new testaments as one dedicated by blood, within a substitutionary atonement context.

At the end of the day you are entitled to believe what you want to believe, notwithstanding what you believe, one plus one equals two and so I therefore stand with facts and not my own or significant others weak, fickle emotive state of mind, in matters that are clearly evident without imposing my own private interpretation.

I will have to kindly object to fake, false and phoney conjectures based on people's weak, fickle emotives state of mind, to conflate matters that are clear and unambigious and easy for everyone to understand.

I free you from you my friend!

 

[The Times]

God is love.

Pretty simple, actually.

Love cannot go against righteousness either, which means though God is Love, God is also Justice. If God doesn't punish evil, then he goes against his own righteousness and Love becomes meaningless. Which is why God openly declares as bright as day light the following.......

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

You cannot separate God's Love from God's Justice, where both are completely compatible and simultaneously operating in harmony.

 

[ClementofA]

That may be. However, if God wanted robotic humanoids, He would not have had to send Jesus and Jesus would not of had to die on the cross.

I think sinners would need the Saviour Jesus' death, whether they have autonomous free will or not. After all, He died for our sins.

Likewise animals without free will are often in need of salvation, e.g. a cat stuck somewhere & can't get out.

 

[ClementofA]

Show me Scripture.

Universalism and the Bible – Keith DeRose

 

[The Times]

'One historical answer'; And one which survives the Church of Rome's attempts to destroy the evidence you now so willingly accept, but obviously wasn't complete enough.

Is it because, the fundamentalist Catholics who defend the faith of their fathers are now under attack?

I think so!

So this tells me that apostasy in these last days is rampent, unparalleled to any time in history. Yes we are observing the changing of laws and times in serving a strange god of fortress that the fathers never worshipped. This would be the reason why the progressive liberal reprobates within ecclessia are now burning and destroying evidence of any remnance of the once Catholic faith, so to pitch fork it with the doctrine of devils.

German theologian - Philip Schaff writes :“In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which
four (Alexandria…Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or
Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine
on this subject is unknown.”

( The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge – Vol XII, Baker Book
House, 1950, p. 96.)

The definition of Universalism back then was never used and it has complete opposite meaning to today's usage of the term universalism.

And, One biblical answer;

2CO 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The problem with the church today is, they think that the last days started in our lifetime. Correction, they started in the days of Jesus (Heb1 :2) and the Great Apostacy has been here for 1500 years. And as the book of the Revelation reveals 'those that will be overcomers' won't be the nominal majority.

Yes, and it has become rampent. Who is destroying evidence of Catholic belief system, is likened to a person destroying his tax papers, so that their fraud is not discovered. He who destroys evidence as you unwittingly testified about is the one trying to hide something, that is an obstacle to their future agenda.

This thread has been about twisting 'the truth' of the gospel just enough to cause those, not qualified to discern the 'truth from the deception', to throw the baby out with the bath water IMO.

And destroying vatican archives is not throwing the baby out with the bath water.

1. Yes
2. Depends on your definition.
3. I'm going to 'assume' that I've done that longer than you've been alive. My profile isn't hiding, like yours, but my assumption still stands.

Blood covenant is a contract, the do's and don'ts and therefore can be voided if one fails to abide in it by siding and aiding a fallen world.

And now I've refuted two of your last posts and you've ignored my last one. And I really would like you to answer your way out of my take of Mark

I deliberately ignored it as a strategy that I would answer it in its proper time, which is now.

I'll post this for you again. And, not just for you, but any ETERNAL HELLER out there who can answer it.

MAR 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:...49 For every one shall be salted with fire,...

This verse is talking to 'the CHOSEN people' of God, about going to hell for having 2 good hands, but 1 bad eye. And what's going to happen there? That bad eye will be dealt with sooooo you can 'enter the kingdom of God with ONE EYE'!!!! Hello church... "EVERY ONE is going to be salted" in purgative "hell fire", getting their sinful parts purged too.

You confuse hell of judgement in the afterlife, with the purging sanctifying fires of the Holy Ghost who moulds us into the personage of Jesus Christ and according to his beatitudes, in this temporal life time.

24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)

God purges our sins in this life and therefore salts us, so that when our time of departure comes, we are made Holy before our day of judgement, after we die (Hebrews 9:14-18).

There is a before and after context. Jesus is saying you must be salted in this life with the fires of the Holy Ghost (John 3:5), before you can be accepted in Christ's father's house in heaven after the testator signs out with their own blood. Blood to blood contract takes effect only after the witness dies. For it is written that all men are destined to die once then judgement.

Your simply are destroying the context of the verse, because it is clearly seen what God is doing in the here and now, within the believer.

7Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zechariah 13:7-9)

Not everyone will be saved and that only a few will be counted by God the Father as being sanctified to progress from this temporal life to the eternal life with Jesus Christ, in his Father's house.

 

[Light of the East]

Love cannot go against righteousness either, which means though God is Love, God is also Justice. If God doesn't punish evil, then he goes against his own righteousness and Love becomes meaningless. Which is why God openly declares as bright as day light the following.......

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

You cannot separate God's Love from God's Justice, where both are completely compatible and simultaneously operating in harmony.

Your problem is that you assign to God human feelings and characteristics, making justice the need for revenge. But that is not the definition of justice. Justice is giving a person that which he is due. What then is man due?

1. For his sins and rebellion - chastening.

2. That he is made in the image of God - God's love.

3. That his sins are of a limited nature - limitation to the scourging of chastisement.

The Western Church has painted God in the image of the Roman Overseer in a court of law. That is not God. God is Father, and by using that analogy in Scripture to define Himself to us, we are led to understand that He acts as a father acts. No father tortures his children for their misdeeds, but chastens them so that they are corrected and learn. No father, discovering his child has done wrong, would imprison his child forever in a house of the most gruesome tortures as a punishment for his wrongdoing.

That is not a father nor just. That is a monster and our God is not a monster.

 

[JacksBratt]

I think sinners would need the Saviour Jesus' death, whether they have autonomous free will or not. After all, He died for our sins.

I don't see my computer doing anything that I don't tell it to do. If there is a problem and my computer "sins" against me, as it is equivalent to a robotic being, it is usually something that I have neglected to do.......Where is the need for my computer to ever need saving...

Now, my children, being of free will.........totally different story...

Likewise animals without free will are often in need of salvation, e.g. a cat stuck somewhere & can't get out.

Sorry, don't agree with this parallel. Not at all.... I, as a Christian, can still get stuck somewhere and need that kind of "salvation"...That is not the salvation we are talking about here. Animals are not in need of Christ's salvation. But.........many times are stuck....

 

[Light of the East]

A relationship is a result of a legally binding union between a husband and a wife. In Jewish law, the marriage is a legally binding union. You cannot have a relationship without a marriage contract, otherwise it would be considered an illegal union out of wedlock.

Marriage is a Sacrament. It is ordained of God and comes from Him as a representation of the Holy Trinity. I really don't care what the pagans do or how they approach it. They are godless and have no connection to the truth. Therefore, to discuss marriage, we do not discuss it as the pagans and unbelievers in our world do - as a mere civil ceremony, which is essentially a contract.

The bridegroom established a legal marital union dedicated by blood. The means of transacting or binding that union legally before God the Father, is throughout the old and new testament dedicated by blood, in that without blood there exists no legally binding union, let alone a legitimate relationship.

And were was the blood of the marital covenant shed? By some civil authority offering a blood sacrifice? No. Of course not. It was the blood of the nuptial bed.

The Hebrews writer who is writing on behalf of all the Church in Jerusalem in Hebrews 9:14-18 clearly defines the transaction from old to new testaments as one dedicated by blood, within a substitutionary atonement context.

In the context of this conversation, I am not understanding the point you are trying to make here. Yes, both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant are ratified in blood. What is your point?

At the end of the day you are entitled to believe what you want to believe, notwithstanding what you believe, one plus one equals two and so I therefore stand with facts and not my own or significant others weak, fickle emotive state of mind, in matters that are clearly evident without imposing my own private interpretation.

I studied the Covenant of God closely for two years before leaving Protestantism, which is anti-covenantal in its precepts. I think I know a little about covenant. Not all, but a pretty fair amount. I am always willing to discuss the Covenant of God and its principles with anyone who wishes to talk.

I will have to kindly object to fake, false and phoney conjectures based on people's weak, fickle emotives state of mind, to conflate matters that are clear and unambigious and easy for everyone to understand.

Kindly, eh? Well, that is one of the nicer insults I've gotten around here for a while.