Perfection or no?

[danstribe]

Well, Mr. Cappy Caps, let me clarify. When I said "God accepts less than perfection," that was my way of saying, "The reason that God doesn't immediately smite someone for sinning is because He's merciful."

Though I think what most of you and Jason are posting is heretical nonsense, I do agree that Christ's sacrifice is evidence of God's demand for perfection.

Hope that clears up what I meant so you don't have to try to capitalize me into submission again.

"Mr Cappy Capps", that was a very nice (made me laugh at myself!) reprimand.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Did I confuse you by using big boy words?

Here's my answer from when you first asked this stupid question:

"I've never espoused the vile belief of antinomianism, nor has anything I've said even vaguely resembled such a view."

Now, I can understand how that answer might have thrown you off. It's got a word in it with more than two syllables.

Let me know if you need me to explain that to you using Watson sized words.

OK, just wanted to be clear you didn't want to answer...thanks just the same.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course you don't. Not one person here has justified sin, this is all in your mind. You really should study the parable of the tax collector and the pharisee.

In Christ
Daniel

Nobody is denying that Christians cannot struggle with sin. Especially many in their early walk with the Lord. But in time, a Christian will learn to overcome sin and walk in God's good ways by the power of the Lord working in them. There are many Scriptures that talk about this (that you have to ignore).

The problem in the "Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee" is that the Pharisee did not humble himself so as to repent like the Tax Collector did. Nowhere was this an example of a believer remaining in sin.


...

 

[Kenny'sID]

Taking into account your history of trying to bait people by asking gotcha style questions, I'll pass on the first question. I'm sure answering it would be a waste of time.

Then if it is a gotcha, you are afraid will getcha, and that's why the excuse not to answer? Seems to me it's irrelevant what my intentions are, or is it that each time I confront you to make my point, a point you will be unable to deny, you will claim it's a gotcha and refuse to answer?

You might as well have just told everyone my point, had you answered, would have negated your claims. Invalid excuse... twice you wouldn't answer and that pretty well speaks for itself.

Interesting observation...you presented a question in the OP, one you hoped would end up a gotcha for your side, and many here were aware of that, it's what this whole thread is based on, and I don't see where anyone chose not to discuss it for that reason. Clear double standard.

 

[Kenny'sID]

As I said, I do not believe all sin leads to spiritual death because 1 John 5:16-17 says that this is so. Seeing 1 Peter 3:21 clearly says that baptism is not for salvation and that there are hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12), I do not believe we will be condemned for such minor transgressions. For things in regards to character flaws like not cutting the lawn yesterday when it was a little high or breaking the law in Port Authur, Texas that says, "Obnoxious odors may not be emitted while in an elevator" are not sins that lead unto the Lake of Fire. Surely God is not going to condemn folks for violating minor laws of the land like this (even if they are aware of them) and or if they are not being 100% perfect in the upkeep of their own home. Yes, we are to strive to be perfect in all we do. Jesus tells us to be perfect. I believe we can only do this by God's power. So a believer will seek out to obey in even the most minor things in time. But are minor transgressions (that are not specifically stated in the Bible) salvation issues? If that was the case, then nobody would be saved.

For 1 Corinthians 3 talks about works that were made out gold, hay, and stubble. Some of these lesser works will be burned up but they are still saved. Granted, this is talking about good deeds and not sin, but the point here is that even certain works done for God are not considered truly righteous and good enough to survive the fire.

I believe serious sin like murder, hate, lying, adultery, idolatry, theft, drunkenness, sexual immorality, sexual thoughts, etc. are all sins that lead unto the Second Death for any person if they are not repented of.


...

It think we agree. It's hard for me to imagine, the small stuff, some of which we might not even realize we are doing, sending us to Hell.

But in the end, I ask forgiveness of my trespasses, try to do right, and that should cover everything. If there is a big or bigger sin, I might address it directly. My guess... I'm not the only one that goes that route.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Apparently, no we do not share the same definition of irrational since what you have just said is "completely irrational" As for a parapet...I have no balconies nor a flat roof to walk upon but it is reassuring to know that a "parapet inspector" is available should I need one. My use of the word "secret" was intended to be facetious.

You said, "The secret to being perfect is this: Keep the commandments, all of them and when you fail, when you sin (and you will)"

Now, call me crazy, if you'd like, but where I come from, "Keep the commandments, all of them" means "Keep the commandments, all of them". So, if your advice is to "Keep the commandments, all of them", then how is it that you then immediately follow it with, "and when you fail, when you sin (and you will)"


How does one, "Keep the commandments, all of them", and fail at the same time. That's the irrational bit. Hope that you can now see that.

 

[danstribe]

You said, "The secret to being perfect is this: Keep the commandments, all of them and when you fail, when you sin (and you will)"

Now, call me crazy, if youlcf like, but where I come from, "Keep the commandments, all of them" means "Keep the commandments, all of them". So, if your advice is to "Keep the commandments, all of them", then how is it that you then immediately follow it with, "and when you fail, when you sin (and you will)"


How does one, "Keep the commandments, all of them", and fail at the same time. That's the irrational bit. Hope that you can now see that.

Oh I suppose it has something to do with how Paul explained it in Romans 7:19 "For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do."
I want to keep the law, the commandments, all of them but as Paul described I keep on doing the evil I don't want to do (sin). I fail to keep the law (at times) but in my spirit I want to keep it all the time. I'm sorry that you don't understand what I'm saying but trying to put things in words certainly leaves an opening for altered interpretation, which is why no one agrees on what the bible says to begin with. When Christ returns we will ALL (I like using capps sometimes lol) fall in line with what He says everything means.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

God did not require perfect sinless law keeping from Abraham but a simple faithful obedience.

What's the distinction? Obedience can't be imperfect. Can one imperfectly NOT commit adultery?

 

[ToBeLoved]

God chastens those who are willing to repent and change and reform. God does not chasten those who are bastard sons. The chastening of the Lord does not make any sense if there is no actual reform in the individual as it's intended goal. For example: A master lightly smacks or disciplines his dog when he poops on the carpet so as to get the dog to stop pooping. The master does not endless smack the dog without seeking a change in the dog's behavior.
...

So how do you explain this?

Who are God's bastard sons? How did they become bastards, never heard this theology before.

Also, God does not stop loving us and trying to teach us, even when we do not fall in line right away. Christ says that He is the good shepherd and when one of His sheep gets lost, He leaves the other 99 sheep and goes after the 1 lost one until He finds it and then brings it back.

Please explain you calling any of Christ's children bastards.

 

[Dan61861]

Wrong, Christ provides forgiveness for our imperfection.

Or are you saying Christ's perfection renders us perfect even if we choose to live a sinful life after we accept him?

Or anyone can answer, it's a simple question.

I did answer this, yet since the words that I used aren't the words you want to hear. I'll try to use the words you are looking for.

Yes, I willfully sin. I am made perfect only by Christ's perfection. I am a sinner, saved by Christ. May God have mercy on me, a sinner.

Christ + nothing=salvation.

It is not what I do, it is what He has done for me. It is by God's sweat grace that Christ's righteousness is accounted to me. I can offer God nothing, least off all would I offer Him my righteousness. My own righteousness is deplorable. I am accounted righteous, I am accounted perfect by Christ's passion for me. May God alone be glorified, may God alone be magnified.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

It think we agree. It's hard for me to imagine, the small stuff, some of which we might not even realize we are doing, sending us to Hell.

But in the end, I ask forgiveness of my trespasses, try to do right, and that should cover everything. If there is a big or bigger sin, I might address it directly. My guess... I'm not the only one that goes that route.

This is justifying sin. It's only a little sin...God's not mad about that. Yet the bible says if you break one of His laws you have broken all of the Law.

It's funny how the standard is lowered so we can appear just.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

Now Kenny, let me ask you a question.

Do you willfully sin, are you in Christ?

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Kenny'sID]

I did answer this, yet since the words that I used aren't the words you want to hear. I'll try to use the words you are looking for.

Yes, I willfully sin. I am made perfect only by Christ's perfection. I am a sinner, saved by Christ. May God have mercy on me, a sinner.

Christ + nothing=salvation.

It is not what I do, it is what He has done for me. It is by God's sweat grace that Christ's righteousness is accounted to me. I can offer God nothing, least off all would I offer Him my righteousness. My own righteousness is deplorable. I am accounted righteous, I am accounted perfect by Christ's passion for me. May God alone be glorified, may God alone be magnified.

Whatever you say.

This is justifying sin. It's only a little sin...God's not mad about that. Yet the bible says if you break one of His laws you have broken all of the Law.

It's funny how the standard is lowered so we can appear just.

You are choosing to see what you wan to see there, and miss evrything else. No one justified a thing. Some sins are worse than others period, made evident by more severe punishments in the OTt for worse sins. The fact couldn't be clearer.

And if I were "justifying them and saying God won't be mad at that", something you completely made up, why would I ask forgiveness for all my sins like I said I did.

Not sure what to think on why you would do that.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Do you willfully sin, are you in Christ?

Is that 2 questions?

 

[ToBeLoved]

This is justifying sin. It's only a little sin...God's not mad about that. Yet the bible says if you break one of His laws you have broken all of the Law.

It's funny how the standard is lowered so we can appear just.

In Christ
Daniel

We are not under the law. We are under grace.
Old Covenant = under the law,
New Covenant = under grace.

 

[Dan61861]

We are not under the law. We are under grace.
Old Covenant = under the law,
New Covenant = under grace.

I agree 100 percent.
The point I'm making though is about man's perfection. How the standard for sin is lowered in order to make themselves acceptable before God.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

Is that 2 questions?

Actually it's your own question thrown back at you.
In Christ
Daniel

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It's funny how the standard is lowered so we can appear just.

In Christ
Daniel

It's also sad. When we rest in our own adherence, however imperfect, to the law, in as much as we do, we fail to rest in Christ.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Actually it's your own question thrown back at you.
In Christ
Daniel

You need to clarify the questions/question so I can answer. It was written a bit odd, and no biggie , but still...

 

[Dan61861]

It's also sad. When we rest in our own adherence, however imperfect, to the law, in as much as we do, we fail to rest in Christ.

My friend, I agree completely.