Perfection or no?

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In other words, if a person breaks just one commandment of God at this very moment, they are breaking God's commandments. For if you break one law you break them all (James 2:10).


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Yes, we can repent of our sin, but confession of sin is not about mere lip service but it is about overcoming sin and reforming so as to do God's will.

Grace is not a license to sin but it is a means to overcome sin.

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Dan61861

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A person who abides in Christ cannot commit sin. This means while you abide in Christ it is not possible to sin.



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No, it means that while you remain in Christ you are Blessed. Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

In Christ
Daniel
 
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stealthsaint

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So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?
Mt 5:48 You therefore shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. The OT commandments have been replaced, not nullified by an obedience to OUR mind of Christ. If we are in relationship with Lord Spirit we will have all desire of the "old man's" wretchedness replaced by OUR desire to please Lord and not self. Hebrews talks about a pure conscience. Christ in US is OUR righteousness which is interwoven with faith, and believe (which is trust and obey <> Strong's G4100)
He 10:22 Let us come forward to the Holy of Holies with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. <> <> "pure water" the living water is flow of Lord's Spirit out from within. In that flow we have righteousness expressed/experience and "qualify" with a boldness of OUR pure conscience to come where no man can be (in relationship) without Lord first and foremost.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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I do not believe your teachers have got it right. The great command is quoted from the OT; what Christ has done on our behalf is die in our place, shed His blood for the remission of sin; which is some of God's part in the covenant.

That God or Jesus has fulfilled the Law so that we do not need to is a paraphrase of or simile to Gen 3:1-5.

Genesis 3:1-5 (NKJV)
1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?"
2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' "
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

I have no idea why you have said above.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Perfect law keeping is just that perfect, no sin and perfect law keeping was the only way under the law of Moses one could be justified before God. Therefore Paul's point in Romans 4 is that neither Abraham nor David were justified by the OT work of flawless law keeping but rather were justified by an obedient faith. Neither man was perfectly sinless but both had an obedient faith in repenting of their sins thereby receive God's forgiveness.

Law-keeping CAN'T be imperfect. It's KEEPING the law.
 
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sparow

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It is true that Jesus makes us perfect, but this is at the moment when we first accepted Christ. From that point we have to continue in Christ and strive for perfection as the goal of our Sanctification. At least that is what Paul essentially says in Philippians 3.

“Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 3:12).

I don't mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me. (Philippians 3:12 NLT).


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I do not use Paul as an authority; "Perfection" is an interpretation that brings with it a marble statue kind of concept; a Biblical example of perfection is Jesus Christ raised to eternal life, the first of the new creation; any raised to eternal life will have the same perfect form as He.
 
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I do not use Paul as an authority; "Perfection" is an interpretation that brings with it a marble statue kind of concept; a Biblical example of perfection is Jesus Christ raised to eternal life, the first of the new creation; any raised to eternal life will have the same perfect form as He.

So do you reject the divinity of Jesus? I ask because Ebionites who reject Paul also reject the divinity of Jesus. Anyways, there is no point in talking about the BIble then if you do not believe in all of it.
It is not the holey bible like a piece of swiss cheese. It is the Holy Bible that is divine and perfect.


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No, it means that while you remain in Christ you are Blessed. Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

In Christ
Daniel

No. He that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8).
Everyone who does evil hates the light (John 3:20).
If one hates their brother no eternal life abides in them (1 John 3:15).
Anyone who does not righteousness is not of God (1 John 3:10).
If we claim to have fellowship with him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth (1 John 1:6).
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4).
He that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).
If we walk in the light as he (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).
Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

As for Romans 4:8: Well, this is reference to Initial Salvation (Justification). This is the receiving of Jesus Christ as one's Savior and believing in His death and resurrection for salvation. It is talking about Initial Salvation which is then followed by works or the process of Sanctification (the next step or stage in the salvation process). This is the Lord doing the good work in you; So a believer cannot pat themselves on the back and or to scream to people, "Hey everybody! Come see how I good I am." Jesus deserves all the glory, honor, and power. God's grace is a means to overcome sin and His grace is not a license to sin.

Anyways, if you were to continue to keep reading, it says the following,

21 "And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."
(Romans 4:21-22).

Verse 21 says that Abraham being persuaded (belief) he was able to perform (works), And this was imputed to him as righteousness. 1 John 1:7 says a similar thing. If you walk in the light as he (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses you of all sin. Are you walking in the light of Christ. This is paralleled with keeping his commandments (See 1 John 2:3). Walking in darkness (1 John 1:6) is paralleled with not keeping his commandments (See 1 John 2:4).



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Neogaia777

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In other words, if a person breaks just one commandment of God at this very moment, they are breaking God's commandments. For if you break one law you break them all (James 2:10).


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Do you break the spirit of or behind the commandments (which we are to discern) ,from time to time...?
 
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Neogaia777

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No. He that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8).
Everyone who does evil hates the light (John 3:20).
If one hates their brother no eternal life abides in them (1 John 3:15).
Anyone who does not righteousness is not of God (1 John 3:10).
If we claim to have fellowship with him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth (1 John 1:6).
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4).
He that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).
If we walk in the light as he (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).
Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

As for Romans 4:8: Well, this is reference to Initial Salvation (Justification). This is the receiving of Jesus Christ as one's Savior and believing in His death and resurrection for salvation. It is talking about Initial Salvation which is then followed by works or the process of Sanctification (the next step or stage in the salvation process). This is the Lord doing the good work in you; So a believer cannot pat themselves on the back and or to scream to people, "Hey everybody! Come see how I good I am." Jesus deserves all the glory, honor, and power. God's grace is a means to overcome sin and His grace is not a license to sin.

Anyways, if you were to continue to keep reading, it says the following,

21 "And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."
(Romans 4:21-22).

Verse 21 says that Abraham being persuaded (belief) he was able to perform (works), And this was imputed to him as righteousness. 1 John 1:7 says a similar thing. If you walk in the light as he (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses you of all sin. Are you walking in the light of Christ. This is paralleled with keeping his commandments (See 1 John 2:3). Walking in darkness (1 John 1:6) is paralleled with not keeping his commandments (See 1 John 2:4).



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You just can't help yourself quoting scripture out of context, cherry picking ones and twisting them to support your own point of view and ignoring scriptures like 1 John 1:8-10 which is something John chooses to open with, right after his greeting and before he says anything else...

You do not "interpret" or "discern" scripture, to find the truth in between two juxtaposed points in them...
 
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Neogaia777

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There may be scripture to support that, if you want to be like God, you must be sinless, but there is also scripture to support that it is impossible for a man to be sinless like God, or to be like God...

Pointing out the need for grace, those scriptures that support sinlessness if taken in context and considering the entirety of scripture, You would know that that was meant to "catch" men in their own pride and cunning, and then, when they realize the truth that they fall short, restoring them, after that...
 
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Neogaia777

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@Jason0047 , you claim that your view is based on scripture, but others are not, claiming scripture as your primary authority (and not the Spirit of God, that allows you to interpret scripture) anyway, then you throw away or toss out scripture like John 1:8-10, and others...?
 
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Open Heart

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So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?
Actually it's the reverse. God forgives our imperfections, but he does call us to be perfect: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48 We can't do this by ourselves, but with the grace of God, over the course of our life and the next, we will indeed be purged of our character flaws before we enter heaven.
 
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Neogaia777

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Actually it's the reverse. God forgives our imperfections, but he does call us to be perfect: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48 We can't do this by ourselves, but with the grace of God, over the course of our life and the next, we will indeed be purged of our character flaws before we enter heaven.
He meant if you want to get to God on your own merits (the law, old covenant) Some translations say, ye "must be" perfect, (as your heavenly father is perfect)...

In other words, if you want to get to God on your own merits or to be like God, by your own self, ye must be perfect, as your heavenly Father, God, is perfect...

He did not mean that it was possible for us, rather the opposite, and that is the real point... It is a trap to catch men trying to be righteous of their own merit... (self-righteous)...
 
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Do you break the spirit of or behind the commandments (which we are to discern) ,from time to time...?

First, Sinless Perfection is the goal and it is not a salvation issue. However, abiding in ongoing unrepentant serious sin (like lusing after women, and lying) is separation from God. Sinless Perfection deals with sins that are minor (or are not a salvation issue).

Second, the Scriptures are true regardless of how I live. If they tell you to be perfect (and they do in many places), then it would be going against what God's Word says to you to do so. You yourself have questioned the Scriptures when they tell you to be perfect. You just later concluded that they are not saying that even though that is what they say plainly (even with the context showing that).

Three, as I said before I do not abide in unrepentant serious sin. My walk with the Lord is upright and in His good ways most days (in regards to serious sin and not minor transgressions). I seek to obey Jesus more and more in His good ways instead of trying to turn God's grace into a license to sin as most do these days. For Titus 2:11-12 says the true grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live soberly, righteously, and Godly in this present world.

The true believer (as described to us in Scripture) is sort of like an alcoholic who joins a drug program and who may stumble on occasion on his road to overcoming his sin of alcoholism or in being sober free.

The Eternal Security proponent (in most cases and not all cases) is sort of like an alcoholic who joins a drug program to make a loved one happy but they have no real intention of giving up the bottle because they think that it is impossible to become sober free (despite other alcoholics having become sober free).

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@Jason0047 , you claim that your view is based on scripture, but others are not, claiming scripture as your primary authority (and not the Spirit of God, that allows you to interpret scripture) anyway, then you throw away or toss out scripture like John 1:8-10, and others...?

Nowhere did I say I throw away or toss out 1 John 1:9-10. That is your false accusation against me.

But does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.


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You just can't help yourself quoting scripture out of context, cherry picking ones and twisting them to support your own point of view and ignoring scriptures like 1 John 1:8-10 which is something John chooses to open with, right after his greeting and before he says anything else...

You do not "interpret" or "discern" scripture, to find the truth in between two juxtaposed points in them...

What is not right is that you have not explained the context of any of those verses I have put forth. You are like most who quote verses to defend your position, but when it comes to explaining verses from your opponent's position, you either remain silent or you just express words of disagreement. Did you even pray and consider that these verses (I have put forth) may be true in what they say? Did you look at them and pray over them thinking they may mean what they say at face value?

I will pray that you will do so. For the Word of God is not a book where you make it say what you want it to say (just because you do not like what it says sometimes).


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There may be scripture to support that, if you want to be like God, you must be sinless, but there is also scripture to support that it is impossible for a man to be sinless like God, or to be like God...

Which Scripture points out that believers cannot be sinless in this life?
Romans 3? 1 John 1:8? I have already explained these verses many times already using the context.

You said:
Pointing out the need for grace, those scriptures that support sinlessness if taken in context and considering the entirety of scripture, You would know that that was meant to "catch" men in their own pride and cunning, and then, when they realize the truth that they fall short, restoring them, after that...

My goal is not to act superior or to catch people with me acting all holy like by offering them no solution and me going, "Hurray! I am awesome!" Far from it. My goal is to get them to overcome their sin (even if they struggle with sin) in love and prayer and by God's Word. Seeing such a reality is impossible for you, of course you are going to see the wrong thing and not the right thing in such a situation. Only God can help a believer overcome their sin and all glory goes to Him. True believers will pray and help another believer who struggles with their sin in love if such a believer is willing to change and repent (and seeking to overcome their sin instead of trying to justify it by God's grace).


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