Perfection or no?

[jimmyjimmy]

So someone like me who has strayed from the faith, I'm twice dead and destined for hell? There's no mercy? God doesn't love me anymore?

His name is Jesus.

Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

 

[ToBeLoved]

i gues it would depend upon if its willfull or just failing.

Read Paul in romans 7:15-20

Paul is not making a distinction between willful vs. unwillful sin. Paul is making distinction between his mind verses his flesh.

Truth is that sin is sin. This willful and unwillful sin is how people make themselves feel better that they sin/sinned. If people want to tout perfection, they have to then be perfect, no sin at all.

 

[JohnKing67]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

I think that kind of goes against what Jesus said when he said to be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. Obviously without God's power in our lives to do it, this would be impossible.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Take for example the Parable of the Banquet (Matthew 22:1-14). In this parable we see it say,

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son"

So here we see a king being described and a son. This is related to God the Father and the Son of God.

An Earthly example is used to illustrate a spiritual truth.

Also, the church is the bride of Christ. So Christ is like a husband and believers are like His wife. So I would say that the analogy does hold. For Paul says,

"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." (2 Corinthians 11:2).


...

You missed all that I was saying.

You had a post and in the first part of the post you were talking about Christ's relationship to us and forgiveness.

Then you flipped a switch and started talking about if a man commits adultery, should his wife believe that he is really sorry and forgive him.

Then you finished up the post again with scripture, using God's Word as an example again.

I said you should not be talking about and using scripture talking about God (who is perfect) and then flip in the next sentence asking if a sinful human should forgive another sinful human.

I'm not sure what all that stuff you wrote about is about.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Those who have the highest view of the law are the Reformed. The Reformed are people of grace. We can admit our sin because it doesn't jeopardize our position. Those who are attempting to earn their salvation don't have that luxury.

I guess all the lowly Christians out there sometimes just need a reminder from a spiritually superior Reformed person to announce that it is the only the "Reformed" who understand grace.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am using this verse as a means to attack a false belief and it was not to attack anyone personally.



Jude 1:4 we notice several things.

#1. Certain men crept in unawares (Jude 1:4).
This means they are clever enough to pass themselves off as Christian among the real brethren. For they crept in among us.
12 "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever." (Jude 1:4) (See Matthew 25:30 that says that there are children of the kingdom who will be cast into outer darkness).

#2. They turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness (KJV), or a license for immorality (NIV) (Jude 1:4). So if they snuck in among us, they are posing as believers and they hold to a view of salvation that turns God's grace into a license for immorality in some way.

#3. They deny the only Lord God and the Lord Jesus Christ. In John' s 1st epistle he had written to the brethen warning them about certain false believers who had denied the deity of Christ and who did not believe sin had any effect on them as believers (salvation wise). For they believed that they had no sin both past and in the present (See 1 John 1:8, 1 John 1:10). John was writing to the brethren about these false believers who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26). 1 John 2:4 says that if we say we know Him (Christ) and do not keep His commandments, we are a liar and the truth is not in us. I have ran into one person on this forum who not only denies the deity of Christ, but they also deny sin can separate a believer from God, as well. But what about others who do not believe exactly this way? Should they be included? It is definitely possible. For the Scriptures say that there are those who deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

#4. Jude makes many examples in reference to individuals who were once right with God but fell away from the Lord.
(a) Those who were saved out of Egypt that later did not believe and were destroyed by God (Jude 1:5).
(b) Gone the way of Cain (Jude 1:11).
(c) Ran greedily after the error of Balaam (Jude 1:11).
(d) Perished in the gainsaying of Core (Jude 1:11).

#5. They walk after their own ungodly lusts . These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. (Jude 1:18-19). So these are certain individuals posing as Christians who are sensual and having not the Spirit.

#6. They feed themselves without fear (Jude 1:12). So when they gather in fellowship every week over the Lord's supper with genuine Christians they are feeding themselves among the brethren without fear. Today in the Eternal Security belief, there is no such thing as "fear." It does not exist. A person is once saved always saved so there is no reason to fear God. There is no working out one's salvation with fear and trembling because they got their golden ticket to Heaven and nobody can take it away. No fear. They feed themselves without fear.

#7. They are plucked up by the roots. In the Parable of the Sower, we learn that two of the seeds did not make it because they had no root within God's Word within the soil of their heart that was sowed by Jesus. One fell away due to persecution and the other fell away from the faith due to riches or the cares of this life.

#8. They are twice dead (Jude 1:12). All babies are saved by Christ's sacrifice. So if a baby dies they will be with Jesus. However, if a baby does not die, and a person grows up, they grow into sin and need to receive Jesus as their Savior to restore that relationship. As to speaking about these individuals in Jude, they had died once spiritually when they grew up into sin after being a baby and they died spiritually a second time when they had then turned God's grace into a license for immorality sometime after their early walk with God. In 1 Timothy 5 we learn of believing widows who have turned aside after Satan. That widow who lives in pleasure is considered dead spiritually while she physically lives.


...

Simple as a pimple. You were using the verse out of context. When you keep doing that, I'm going to call you out on it because you know the context, yet you mislead others because you don't clarify the context as it should be.

If you want people to trust you, you should not pull verses out of their context because without context they seem to support your point.

 

[DeerGlow]

His name is Jesus.

Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Do you believe that a believer in Christ can walk away from the faith and lose their salvation?
Or do you think God only chooses to regenerate only those He knows will preserve?
Is there even a thing as living holy as a requirement in your belief?
Or can a believer die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) and still be saved?



Do you mind
And may God bless you.


...

I apologize for forgetting to address these.

Do you believe that a believer in Christ can walk away from the faith and lose their salvation?

Yes, of course. One would have to ignore a multitude of clear scriptural warnings to believe otherwise. We have been fed a view of grace that is not found in the Word. Who is it that is saved? He that endures to the end.

Is there even a thing as living holy as a requirement in your belief?

Are we not all called to be pure in heart, to live possessing our bodies in sanctification and honor? But lest we forget, there will be some who hav all their works burned up, but they will b saved, but as by fire. Were these living holy for achrist? Obviously not. Were they still saved? Obviously yes.

As sheep, we have been led into pastures that can barely sustain life, let alone live it abundantly. Many languish not because they choose to, but because they have been told that they must.be holy ,yet the only instruction they have is "Just do it." That is not being free indeed.

Hope this helps.

Blessings, Gideon[/QUOTE]

I can't find the post about being twice dead but I can't deny it.

 

[Gideons300]

You mention a single flaw that isn't a flaw at all, I'd have to know the full range of flaws you are talking about before I could agree or disagree. It appears you are really stating nothing new, sin is sin unless it is not sin, as in the one you mentioned.

For instance, living fornication as a lifestyle, I mean something we are always ready to do if the opportunity presents, is one very real thing that is not a flaw, that can end us up in Hell, and the type thing I am referring too.

Some say that is no problem, and it's covered by grace, or even go so far as to promote it by stating if we decline to do something like that, and teach it should not be done, we are legalistic, don't accept what Christ did for us and a number of other blah, blah, blah's to try to put a guilt trip on those who try to do good, or in the words of some, for doing such a terrible thing as trying to be proactive in our salvation. That is exactly how Satan, the master of confusion works.

There are those who will never buy Satan's junk, they know the truth and are happy to oblige God, where others don't like God's plane and want an easier one that lets them have their cake and eat it too, those are the ones that will be taken in/will allow it, and for that reason, it's no ones fault but their own.

Most of that is not directed at you, Gideon.

I fully understand your questioning this. Under the new covenant, we are told that whatsoever is not of fairh is sin. Before it was written rules, but now God has given us His Holy Spirit to rule (think 'umpire') in our hearts.

Let me give you an example. You are driving on te interstate with your family. Suddenly, a car zooms up behind you and stays about one foot from your rear bumper. You tap your brake to try to move him back to a safe distance. He then speeds around you, cuts quickly in front of you and slams on his brakes, with you narrowly missing him.

What is your reaction? Most likely you will get upset at his foolish and dangerous behavior. Even angry. Have you sinned? Nope. But now the temptation comes to react back and suddenly you feel the check of the Spirit to let it go. No way, you think. This fool needs to be taught a lesson.

Have you sinned now? Yup. One was a reaction. Another a willful choice. BIG difference.

As my issue was lust, let's use that as an example. You are driving along and see a shapely woman walking in heels down the street. Your eyes focus instinctively on her beauty. Sin? Nope. However, you suddenly are tempted to lust after her, to do more than admire. The Spirit checks you and you say Thank you Lord that I do not have to go there and that you can keep me from falling. Have you sinned? Not at all.

Our human weaknesses, areas that the fruits of the Spirit have not developed yet, are NOT sins. We still live in fleshly bodies but we are no longer of the flesh. We are told that as new creatures, we owe the flesh NOTHING. Oh, that we might believe that.

Willful sin is deadly. It puts us against the Holy Spirit, and if persisted in without repentance, hardened our hearts.

Slowly but surely, our faith becomes mental agreement but our heart, where faith is born, becoming so hardened, so calloused, that discovering the childlike faith again is difficult if not impossible. We are told that if our hearts dondemn us, God isgreater thsn our hearts and knows all things. The walk God has for us is not one of "I am just a crappy sinner saved by grace". No, our testimony is to be I WAS a terrible sinner, and by the grace of God, I am not only forgiven of it, but I am delivered from its grasp. That is what will get the attention of the lost seekers in the world. The first is simply our excuse to remain hypocrites, and they see right theough us. But when a man says that despite our terrible past, God has both forgiven us and set us free indeed, that is a man who has started walking as a true overcomer.

I hope this clarifies it a bit.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Gideons300]

Have you ever read the Sermon on the Mount?

So may I ask you, do you love the Lord with ALL of your heart? Careful how you answer.

How about loving your neighbor as youvlove yourself.?

We can try to do these but exactly what sporotual exercises do we do to be able to accomplish these?

There is but one way. Paul nailed it in Collossions 2:20.

"I am crucified with Christ. Nevertheless I live. Yet not I , but Christ who now dwelleth in me. And the life that I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

So why did Jesus tell us things so high that we could never truly obey them? So that we would try really hard? No, they were said so that after trying really hard, we would admit failure, confess our Romans 7 dilemma, come to the place that we had NO confidence in the flesh, and cry out for the deliverer to set us free indeed by coming to reside IN us.

As long as we are trying to follow external commandments, we are still under law. And what is the pirpose of this? To break is of all confidence that if we just try a bit harder, we can obey as Christ commanded. And once we are finally broken, and have learned to hate our old nature and cry out to God for our new one, we find to our delight He is right there to open our eyes to the truth that we have been made new already.

It is at that point that the law had done its work as a schoolmaster. We gradiate from external obedience to abiding in Him. And what are we promised if we do? That we will bear MUCH fruit.

What an amazing God we serve!

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Gideons300]

What a great testimony and biblical truth you gave shared! We can never live the Christian life ourselves, but only through Christ living in us. It is only when we die and walk in newness of life in Christ...Likewise you also reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 6:11). It is His power and perfect righteousness imputed to us.

Your post made me smile. Once we realize that it is that very reckoning that we have missed, that it is an action of faith based upon the two truths we are to KNOW, everything changes.

Thus, when satan does accuse or tempt, we meet him with "You are right, that WAS me, but thst is me no longer. The old me is gone and the new men can stare you down without wavering.

Do you remember the scripture in Revelation in talking about the latter day saints? They overcome satan. How did they do it? By the blood of the Lamb AND the word of THEIR testimony. Glory to God!

Paul says we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in us, and that we owe the flesh a big fat NOTHING. It is this generation that is going to have our eyes opened to that truth, and those in the world, long hating our hypocrisy, will instead exclaim "Look! That which bore only briars and thorns has become again like the garden of Eden!" (See in Ezekiel 36). BTW, Ezekiel 36 and 37 might be the two most spot-on chapters concerning us right now in the entire Bible. It is here we read the secret so long hidden from our eyes, lost to the church when the evil wolves came in after Paul's death. God says that under the new covenant, He will CAUSE US to walk in full obedience. Should this surprise is? Is He not the potter and we the clay? Why do we think the first church turned the entire world on their ear? They were the recipients of the former rain, and the seed sprouted. We are to be the recipients of the latter rain, and glory to God, the latter will surpass the former!

Brothers and sisters, we are that generation. The latter rain is about to begin falling. Buckle your spiritual seatbelts, things are about to go from boring to amazing.

Blessings,

VteGideon

 

[Kenny'sID]

Willful sin is deadly. It puts us against the Holy Spirit, and if persisted in without repentance, hardened our hearts.

But we are heaven bound regardless?

If no, we have no argument, if yes, we will always disagree.

As to my "questioning" I am not, my mind is made up.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Do you believe that a believer in Christ can walk away from the faith and lose their salvation?

Romans 8.38-39

 

[Jkohlmeier]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

Absolutely God demands perfection in the keeping of His commandments - that's why Jesus had to be perfect so His sacrifice as the "sinless Savior" would be accepted by the Father as an atoning "purchase" (i.e. redemption) for our sins. If Jesus wasn't perfect then He didn't take my place on the cross - He would have gotten what He (and I) deserved..

 

[Reformationist]

God demands perfection.

Thank you for the answer.

 

[Reformationist]

You are right "that time isn't today".

It will be in eternity.

In this life, I don't know about you, but I continually, no matter how hard I try, fall short.

So, if God is demanding it of me.........I am a disappointment.

Yet, I am saved.

I don't think you're a disappointment to God. Were you to be measured on your own merits, then sure. We would all be a disappointment by that measure. However, as has been pointed out, you are clothed in the righteousness of Christ so you are perfect in the sight of God and perfection is what He demands. Thankfully, He is willing to accept Christ's perfection as yours.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So may I ask you, do you love the Lord with ALL of your heart? Careful how you answer.

How about loving your neighbor as youvlove yourself.?

We can try to do these but exactly what sporotual exercises do we do to be able to accomplish these?

There is but one way. Paul nailed it in Collossions 2:20.

"I am crucified with Christ. Nevertheless I live. Yet not I , but Christ who now dwelleth in me. And the life that I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

So why did Jesus tell us things so high that we could never truly obey them? So that we would try really hard? No, they were said so that after trying really hard, we would admit failure, confess our Romans 7 dilemma, come to the place that we had NO confidence in the flesh, and cry out for the deliverer to set us free indeed by coming to reside IN us.

As long as we are trying to follow external commandments, we are still under law. And what is the pirpose of this? To break is of all confidence that if we just try a bit harder, we can obey as Christ commanded. And once we are finally broken, and have learned to hate our old nature and cry out to God for our new one, we find to our delight He is right there to open our eyes to the truth that we have been made new already.

It is at that point that the law had done its work as a schoolmaster. We gradiate from external obedience to abiding in Him. And what are we promised if we do? That we will bear MUCH fruit.

What an amazing God we serve!

Blessings,

Gideon

The question is: Is God's standard for obedience: Perfection?

I'm not perfect, nor have I claimed to be, but God's law is, and His standard is.

 

[Reformationist]

Bible does not talk of a Covenant with Adam and Eve. God commanded Adam and the "woman"; a covenant is entered into with the two parties' agreement.

Really? I gave you that post and you respond with "a covenant is entered into with the two parties agreement?"

Have a great day tft...

 

[Reformationist]

Are you saying that God held Adam and Eve to the Law of Moses and the 10 Commandments?

No. Neither the Mosaic law nor the 10 Commandments had been given. How could He hold them to that?

You lost me...

 

[JacksBratt]

I don't think you're a disappointment to God. Were you to be measured on your own merits, then sure. We would all be a disappointment by that measure. However, as has been pointed out, you are clothed in the righteousness of Christ so you are perfect in the sight of God and perfection is what He demands. Thankfully, He is willing to accept Christ's perfection as yours.

I think you have taken pieces of my response and used them separately without the entire concept of what I was saying. You cannot take a small portion of my post, cut it out and use it standing alone.

Please read my entire post again and you will see what I am trying to say.

 

[Winken]

If you break a number of rules or sin too often like me though, I have to question if I'm saved. It's not earning my salvation it's can a saved person act like this?

YOU question if you are saved. He doesn't. You don't "earn" salvation. It is the GIFT of God, not of works. Check out my blog: Winken.