Orthodox vs. Protestant belief differences?

[Constantine the Sinner]

I think I have asked this question already, but did not get a response. What do you mean by "ONTOLOGICALLY". Because I want to understand it, not caricature it. Have I caricature anything so far? And if you do not want to explain it, please be courtesy and say you do not too. Instead of bashing me, can we do that?

It means "being-ologically".

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

And this is suppose to be clear enough that people in the EOC, understand it? Because I am confused with this post. I have too many questions to ask. For the record Paul & James are not at odds in relation to works.

Paul is talking about works like circumcision and eating kosher. James isn't.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

So then one can believe that no will die or go to hell, correct? If they believe this.

Who is or was in the Patristic consensus?



Well if you are using this philosophy, then it must apply to all, correct? God created Lucifer/Satan, so is he then essentially good? A serial killer or child molester is then essentially good? That I am sorry does not make any sense. We do what we are. So people who are evil do evil acts. And vice versa.


Explain the Fall and how Satan is the prince? And if people cannot do good without God. What do they do without God?


What you explain "ENERGIES"? And how does this not sound like Gnostic teaching? A special revelation by experiencing energies?

No, you definately can experience fiery torment

Yes, Satan, serial killers and child molesters are all essentially good, but operationally evil. If your essence deterined yours, the fall would man have been essentially evil from the start.

You can do NOTHING without God permitting it.

Satan is father and lord of sin, which is death; once death reigned, he became prince.

"Energies" is the theological term for activity or operation.

 

[ladodgers6]

Again just caricatures and comments that avoid the questions.

 

[ladodgers6]

It means "being-ologically".

Why EOC is so vague about their religion makes me run for my life.

 

[ladodgers6]

Paul is talking about works like circumcision and eating kosher. James isn't.

No, that is absolutely incorrect. I wish you would back-up your comment with references, instead of these blank accusations.

 

[ladodgers6]

No, you definately can experience fiery torment

Yes, Satan, serial killers and child molesters are all essentially good, but operationally evil. If your essence deterined yours, the fall would man have been essentially evil from the start.

You can do NOTHING without God permitting it.

Satan is father and lord of sin, which is death; once death reigned, he became prince.

"Energies" is the theological term for activity or operation.

Huh? Serial killers and child molesters are essentially "GOOD"? What on earth are you talking about? You make it seem that no one is evil or bad in all of history; including Hitler who slaughtered millions of people. Your premise of the Fall is just off. Your premise of what we became; by One Act of Disobedience
which bought sin, death, and condemnation is just off. Satan is essentially "GOOD", really??? But you say that people cannot do good without God. So what are they then before God acts? Good??? How can that be if they need God? You have a misconception of the Fall. Because God created Adam in Perfect righteousness and holiness, perfectly capable of fulfilling all of God's commands. Adam had a free-will to choose to obey or disobey. And there were sanctions for disobedience and blessings if he obeyed God.
So what is sin in your religion? A time out?

 

[Christina C]

I think I have asked this question already, but did not get a response. What do you mean by "ONTOLOGICALLY". Because I want to understand it, not caricature it. Have I caricature anything so far? And if you do not want to explain it, please be courtesy and say you do not too. Instead of bashing me, can we do that?

If you really want to understand what Eastern Orthodoxy is really all about, why not pose a question in TAW? There are sub forums for a)asking a question or b)debating with the orthodox. You will get more answers there and some of them may explain things in a different way that you will find easier to understand. But, obviously only if you are interested in what the beliefs sctually are and how they have been come by.

 

[Christina C]

And that's the problem.

It's a problem when two people try to talk to each other and each of them is understanding something different by the same word. But, if each understand what each other means by those words it makes it a lot easier to appreciate their views, even if you don't agree with them.

 

[Christina C]

Why EOC is so vague about their religion makes me run for my life.

EO is definitely not vague! If you are really interested try looking for the answers to your questions on-line. EO has a clear theology - just pretty different to Western theology in a lot of areas. Any seeming vagueness I think comes from accepting that there are some things that no-one can fully understand or explain in this life - mysteries. Google salvation, original sin, essence, energies with Eastern Orthodoxy and you will get explanations of what is believed.

 

[Christina C]

Quite true. I sometimes wonder why that is. When I was young the Episcopal Church in the Unites States was a bastion of propriety and dignity. Do you have any thoughts on the matter?

Actually, I have been thinking more about your question and I do have more thoughts on it. In fact I think I could write an essay on it! Don't have time right now, but may come back to it this evening.

 

[ladodgers6]

If you really want to understand what Eastern Orthodoxy is really all about, why not pose a question in TAW? There are sub forums for a)asking a question or b)debating with the orthodox. You will get more answers there and some of them may explain things in a different way that you will find easier to understand. But, obviously only if you are interested in what the beliefs sctually are and how they have been come by.

Thanks for the comments. Help me navigate to TAW?

 

[ladodgers6]

It's a problem when two people try to talk to each other and each of them is understanding something different by the same word. But, if each understand what each other means by those words it makes it a lot easier to appreciate their views, even if you don't agree with them.

Yes, I agree with you here. All I want is to understand what the EOC teaches. Not get different answers from EOC members. I am a convinced Classical Reformed Calvinist. And what I have learn so far about the EOC position, leaves too many questions unanswered.

 

[ladodgers6]

EO is definitely not vague! If you are really interested try looking for the answers to your questions on-line. EO has a clear theology - just pretty different to Western theology in a lot of areas. Any seeming vagueness I think comes from accepting that there are some things that no-one can fully understand or explain in this life - mysteries. Google salvation, original sin, essence, energies with Eastern Orthodoxy and you will get explanations of what is believed.

I have, and I understand that there are mysteries, or questions we have that the Bible does not reveal answers too. But areas where the Bible is clear, we can teach, preach, and defend against distortions, and misconceptions, and deceivers.

 

[Christina C]

Thanks for the comments. Help me navigate to TAW?

TAW is The Ancient Way - the EO forum that you can find in Congregation, Christian Communities. They have a couple of sub-forums - St Justin Martyr's for debating with the Orthodox and St Basil the Great's Hall for asking questions.

 

[Tigger45]

Thanks for the comments. Help me navigate to TAW?

Here ya go > St. Basil the Great's Hall

 

[FenderTL5]

Why EOC is so vague about their religion makes me run for my life.

Let me see if I can help. You've been given the words and definitions. Let me try a poor stab at an illustration.
On a cold winter day you blow air/breathe on your hands to warm them. In contrast, same day, same environment, when given a hot beverage you do the same thing to cool it. Is the breath the same or different? is the result the same or different? The breath is ontologically the same but the operation, the energy or the working is different. Why, its the same air but it works differently depending on the situation.
An encounter with the Almighty God to a child of God can be warm and inviting. To a sinner, the same encounter would be a consuming fire. God didn't change.

My grandfather was a five-point Calvinist pastor and head of a Baptist Association for years. My parents raised me in the more Arminian belief of the Independent Baptist Church. Most of my adult life was spent in Southern Baptist Churches with a somewhat blended base. I did spend two years in the same Sunday School class as Al Mohler. I understand your confusion, especially since you said you are convinced in Calvinism. Once a mind is made up, everything must fit into that construct. I understand. Calvinism NEVER made sense to me without closing one eye and squinting real hard with the other. "whosoever will" was enough to throw doubt on it in my POV.

As others have done, I too would invite you to our forum where it can be discussed more fully with more participation. The link is in the previous post.

 

[ladodgers6]

TAW is The Ancient Way - the EO forum that you can find in Congregation, Christian Communities. They have a couple of sub-forums - St Justin Martyr's for debating with the Orthodox and St Basil the Great's Hall for asking questions.

Sorry, but why does this sound so secretive? Why can't this been discussed here? Just wondering.

 

[ladodgers6]

Here ya go > St. Basil the Great's Hall

Thanks. I thought EOC hates Luther? Because of his preaching & teaching about Justification by Faith Alone! Eucharist, and the Protestant view. The EOC in my experience in discussing this topic. IMO the EOC caricatures the Protestant view, in saying that Christ's death is just a dead memorial in the Protestant tradition.

The Holy Spirit and the Sacraments Turning to the Holy Spirit’s work in our lives, Calvin explains how it is that we are willing to receive both Word and sacrament, be taught by them, and are transformed by them. We are taught the Word, confirmed by the sacraments and in all of this enlightened by the Holy Spirit. Thus our transformation, including our spiritual walk, is through the Holy Spirit whose guidance and authority are always connected to the Word and graciously associated with the sacrament. (8)
Likewise, the ability of the sacraments to increase our faith does not reside in them but in the power of the Holy Spirit. Without the actions of the Spirit on our hearts the sacraments are empty of effectiveness. “The sacraments duly perform their office only when accompanied by the Spirit, the internal Master, whose energy alone penetrates the heart, stirs up the affections, and procures access for the sacraments into our souls.” Additionally, Calvin makes use of the parable of the sower to explain how even in the preaching of the Word it is the Holy Spirit who works in the heart to prepare the person to receive the Word. Thus the Word attached to the sacrament is made effectual by the power of the Holy Spirit. (9-11)
As believers, our confidence is not in the sacrament itself but in God. To clarify, Calvin explains that although God gives mercies to us with such gifts as fire for warmth and animals for food, such material objects are not themselves the mercies of God. In the same way the sacraments are not themselves the mercies or glory of God but point to his glory and mercy. God could take away the sacraments from us but his glory and mercies would remain. The point is, the Christian’s faith above all else is in God not in external signs. (12)

 

[ladodgers6]

Let me see if I can help. You've been given the words and definitions. Let me try a poor stab at an illustration.
On a cold winter day you blow air/breathe on your hands to warm them. In contrast, same day, same environment, when given a hot beverage you do the same thing to cool it. Is the breath the same or different? is the result the same or different? The breath is ontologically the same but the operation, the energy or the working is different. Why, its the same air but it works differently depending on the situation.

This dumb Christian is slowing getting it. Sorry, but I like to think about my Faith. Because I am not afraid to challenge what I believe, and why I believe it. I do not like being rude or nasty when debating with people, because we are discussing God's word. Its just frustrating when people caricature what Calvinism teaches without doing proper research. Like I am doing with the EOC religion. I am doing my home work. My intent is not to distort it, but to understand it. I will be the first to admit that I am the dumbest believer in all Christendom. But I am armed with Scripture (sola scriptura). And I will challenge what anyone say to me; like the bereans who check the Scriptures even when Paul spoke.

So I ask you, if God commands that we preach His Gospel of Grace to every living creature.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, The just shall live by faith . (Romans 1:16-17).

There is only one way to the Father, and that's in Christ. From Genesis through to Revelation the central message is of a Messiah; a Promised Seed; a Redeemer; a Mediator; Reconciliation; Our Justification; Our Sanctification; Our Redemption!

All I am trying to share with you guys. Is that since we both believe that we cannot DO anything. So in essence is a Divine Act of God that saved the ungodly. Sorry for being long winded, but the good news for us is only found in the Gospel of Grace!

An encounter with the Almighty God to a child of God can be warm and inviting. To a sinner, the same encounter would be a consuming fire. God didn't change.

Please allow me to share something glorious with you. The reason God saves sinners, is because He LOVES them.
Romans 5:8 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. So I ask you how can God be the Just and the Justifier?

My grandfather was a five-point Calvinist pastor and head of a Baptist Association for years. My parents raised me in the more Arminian belief of the Independent Baptist Church. Most of my adult life was spent in Southern Baptist Churches with a somewhat blended base. I did spend two years in the same Sunday School class as Al Mohler. I understand your confusion, especially since you said you are convinced in Calvinism. Once a mind is made up, everything must fit into that construct. I understand. Calvinism NEVER made sense to me without closing one eye and squinting real hard with the other. "whosoever will" was enough to throw doubt on it in my POV.

When I was a Jehovah Witness, 7th Day, Mormon, Pentecostal, Catholic, Arminian, pretty much everything under the sun. Until I was challenge by a Calvinist friend on what I believe and why I believe it. Since then I learned about the Doctrines of Grace, and finally heard the Gospel of Grace.

Now the EOC states that it believes that we cannot DO anything good without God. We both agree on this point. But way we part ways, is, what are we before God acts? But I have been waiting for an answer to this question from the EOC position. How did we Fall? Is another crucial topic to discuss in detail. Without God, "whosoever will" is nobody. Because they are in bondage to sin, death, and Satan! Now believers "WILL" follow God because God has ALREADY saved them through His Son. So they willingly obey Him. I know you will probably take this the wrong way. But by saying "whosoever wills", I know for a fact that you do not understand Classical Reformed Calvinism. Because by saying that you are missing what the point is being made by that term. Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).

And please believe me on this. When I first heard about Calvinism. I set out to destroy it. I spent countless days and long nights reading, and studying to disprove it. But as I did my homework, I found the Doctrines of Grace without Scripture. Which was and is music to my ears! Praise be to God who Justifies the ungodly.

As others have done, I too would invite you to our forum where it can be discussed more fully with more participation. The link is in the previous post.

I will check it out, if people are friendly and courtesy.