Orthodox vs. Protestant belief differences?

[FenderTL5]

Thanks again for presenting EOC position in more detail. I have some questions. First, if no one is guilty for the actual sin Adam & Eve committed, then why are we held responsible for the consequences of Adam & Eve's sin?

Actually most of this, including an answer to 'why' was linked in my previous post.
Here is a truncated quote (words in italics from The Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware - emphasis added in bold text by me).

For the Orthodox tradition, then, Adam's original sin affects the human race in its entirety, and it has consequences both on the physical and the moral level: it, results not only in sickness and physical death, but in moral weakness and paralysis..

..Original sin is not to be interpreted in juridical or quasi-biological terms, as if it were some physical 'taint' of guilt, transmitted through sexual intercourse. This picture, which normally passes for the Augustinian view, is unacceptable to Orthodoxy. The doctrine of original sin means rather that we are born into an environment where it is easy to do evil and hard to do good; easy to hurt others, and hard to heal their wounds; easy to arouse men's suspicions, and hard to win their trust. It means that we are each of us conditioned by the solidarity of the human race in its accumulated wrong-doing and wrong-thinking, and hence wrong-being. And to this accumulation of wrong we have ourselves added by our own deliberate acts of sin. The gulf grows wider and wider. It is here, in the solidarity of the human race, that we find an explanation for the apparent unjustness of the doctrine of original sin. Why, we ask, should the entire human race suffer because of Adam's fall? Why should all be punished because of one man's sin? The answer is that human beings, made in the image of the Trinitarian God, are interdependent and coinherent. No man is an island. We are 'members one of another', and so any action, performed by any member of the human race, inevitably affects all the other members. Even though we are not, in the strict sense, guilty of the sins of others, yet we are somehow always involved. 'When anyone falls', states Aleksei Khomiakov, 'he falls alone; but no one is saved alone.'

How did Adam & Eve Fall?

In lighter moments within Orthodox circles, the answer to this question is simply; they failed to keep the fast. To which there is an element of truth.

God is Love. Man was/is created in His image.

Love implies sharing and freedom. God desired to share Himself with created persons in His image, who would be capable of responding to Him freely and willingly in a relationship of love. Without freedom, there would be no sin. Without freedom man would not be in God's image; without freedom man would not be capable of entering into communion with God in a relationship of love.

Created for fellowship with the Holy Trinity, called to advance in love from the divine image to the divine likeness, man chose instead a path that led not up but down..
Entrusted by God with the gift of freedom, he systematically denied freedom to his fellows.

The 'original sin' of man, his turning from God-centredness to self-centredness..
..he no longer looked upon the world and other human beings as a sacrament of communion with God. He ceased to regard them as a gift, to be offered back in thanksgiving to the Giver, and he began to treat them as his own possession

In other words; given the choice man made a self-centered decision over a loving sharing relationship/communion with God.

We share in the sin of Adam in that we are born into a world where the consequences of sin prevail. These consequences are not only the outward brokenness like disease and death, but interior disorder as well. Our nature is corrupted. We are subject to temptation, prone to sin, and share in death. It is no accident that the Gospel is full of stories involving physical healing.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Christ's voluntary sacrifice on the cross was not to satisfy God's vengeance, a desire to see sin punished; rather Christ's death on the cross enabled Christ to enter death and destroy it, as evidenced by rising from the dead once and for all.

 

[FenderTL5]

I know what I believe and why I believe it. Our confessions state..

: PAUSE :
It's encouraging to see that you recognize your beliefs are based on a tradition, er, confessions that includes extra-Biblical sources.
In our case, we tend to hold to the Tradition of the Church; which includes the Bible, Ancient Fathers, and the ecumenical councils.
What many (all?) of us understand about scripture depends largely on our teacher(s).
Phillip asked the Eunuch, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
the reply is, “How can I, unless someone guides me?”
..but I digress.

So I ask politely, why & how did Adam or Lucifer fall because of disobedience to God? When they possess innate quality? I am not trying to be difficult. I want to know if you can answer these questions or not?

Yes I understand your POV. But you have problems in explaining away why we and Satan sinned. Can you explain to me as if I was a 2 year old. In other words you need to spell it out for this dummy. Sorry I am slow, and need a simple explanation.

Well here's a major point that needs to be addressed. Now you mentioned earlier or I could be wrong and I got it from another EOC member. That everyone, including Satan is essentially good because they possess innate quality contrary to evil..

I have no idea where you got the part about Satan. Satan is the destroyer of goodness and order, the liar who fatally rebelled against God and looks forward only to eternal judgment and condemnation. The scriptures tell us that the devil has "sinned from the beginning" (1 John 3:8).
That there was a 'fall' in the angelic realm prior to the fall of man is understood.
We have few details in scripture.
Other than acknowledge that part of the question, I refuse to speculate on why or how Satan fell.

What is certain is that mankind is meant for paradise, and paradise is understood as life in and with God that lasts for all eternity. Who then, caused the rupture that introduced sin, illness and death into the world? The answer is the evil one.

How did the rupture occur? It happened when Satan tempted Adam and Eve when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The Fathers of the Church wrote that the lie that Satan proffered hid a crucial dimension of God's original commandment not to eat of the fruit. Yes, Satan was correct in telling Adam and Eve that they would become like gods and therefore have knowledge of good and evil, but he withheld that they would also be subject to sin. As for Adam and Eve, the nature of their sin was that they looked to the creation rather than the Creator for the life (which includes knowledge and wisdom) that can only come from God. In fact, the Fathers posit that if Adam and Eve had obeyed God, they would have matured in understanding and discernment and eventually would have come to know good and evil without sin.
Concerning maturity, Irenaeus of Lyons is widely regarded as the leading Church Father of the second century. Irenaeus believed Adam and Eve were not created as fully mature beings, but as infants or children who would grow into perfection (Against the Heretics 4.38.1-2; ANF Vol. 1 p. 521). Irenaeus pictures it as something that occurred in the childhood of the race, an understandable lapse due to weakness and immaturity.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I know what I believe and why I believe it. Our confessions state that Adam fell by His own FREE-WILL. Nobody forced Adam & Eve to disobey and sin against God. They did it willingly. So I ask politely, why & how did Adam or Lucifer fall because of disobedience to God? When they possess innate quality? I am not trying to be difficult. I want to know if you can answer these questions or not?


Yes I understand your POV. But you have problems in explaining away why we and Satan sinned. Can you explain to me as if I was a 2 year old. In other words you need to spell it out for this dummy. Sorry I am slow, and need a simple explanation.

Satan and Adam turned against their own essential nature. It like a human trying to live as a horse and live off a horse's diet and procreate with horses; it will be deadly, because it disagrees with his essential nature.

Amen!! Why & how did Christ reconcile sinful humanity to God?

By becoming man and allowing us to be joined with God bodily. Christ died in the law, fulfilling the demand for death it has of all living things; but since he was God, he could not die, and so is risen, conquering death. By being united with God's body, we partake of his fulfillment of the law, as well as his conquest of it. But Paul warned that if we are united to God without having surrendered to him in contrition and humility, it is damning. We must, as the Publican, routinely express contrition to God and ask for his forgiveness for all our sins; and once we are back in tune with God's energies, then we may be rejoined with his body. God united with us as a man, so we could be reunited with him.

Well here's a major point that needs to be addressed. Now you mentioned earlier or I could be wrong and I got it from another EOC member. That everyone, including Satan is essentially good because they possess innate quality contrary to evil. So think about it for a moment before replying. Does evil flow from nothing within a person or the innate essence of the mind, heart, and soul? I have studied FREE-WILL for several years now. Calvinism does teach that sinners have FREE-WILL, because nobody forces us to sin. We do them willingly because that's what we love, crave, lust for.

Here's Calvin on the topic,

"...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined.
- John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70

You make it seem, that people are forced against their innate quality to sin. That they do it against their WILLS? What is "WILL" then? If sin is not coming from our innate wickedness, then where does it come from? These are very important questions that need to be addressed. Can you answer it or not?

Yes, all sin is self-will. Doing anything out of one's own will, instead for God's will, is the definition of sin.

By all means, ask me whatever you want. I am not afraid, but only seek the truth. I know what I believe, and why I believe it. Yes, I have encountered this question many times. Luther was driving home a point to Philipp Melanchthon who was struggling with doing enough good works. Especially when he sinned. Thinking that he could get back into God's good grace with his evangelical obedience. And this is where Legalism goes far back to Satan's doctrine that He used against Adam & Eve. Both Legalism & Antinomianism has plagued the church from the beginning.

"Disobey God boldly" doesn't make any sense, and giving that advice to someone cannot possibly be good in the eyes of God.

Luther continually berates contrition in his work, not just in that letter. Over and over. That doesn't sound like the Publican. In Orthodoxy, contrition is stressed as of the utmost importance, whereas Luther sees it as hateful.

So that I explain this as clearly as I can. Paul says in Galatians that no flesh will be justified through the works of the Law; for the record, any Law; Ceremonial, Civil, and Moral. Because the fallen progeny of Adam are already under its condemnation because One Man's Act of disobedience. The are fallen through & through; not just a part of us, all of us is corrupt and fallen, including our innate quality! Which is the root of all evil; the heart, mind, soul. So for a fallen sinner to attempt to keep the whole law perfectly. Is a foolish mission.

Trying to keep the law for inmates, when you have been freed from the prison, is very foolish. You are free in Christ, and trying to still be a good inmate is refusing to acknowledge that. On the other hand, we have the obligations of the free; the law of death, for instance, says we are to charge no interest; now that we are free, Christ says we are not even to ask for any of the debt back.

Only by the Grace of God in Christ is what saves us. Something outside of us; meaning stop looking inward for innate quality to merit God's justice. There is nothing within us that can stand before a Holy God who demands perfect righteousness. But God gives us this righteousness in His Son which we receive it through Faith Alone. And it covers us like white robes; we clothed in Christ!

No one is saying we are justified by an innate quality, but rather that God loves for our innate goodness (and by "innate goodness", I mean his having created us, his having said we are "good" afterward, and our being created in his image; these are all innate). He loved us even before he died for us...in fact, he died for us precisely because he loved us.

2 Corinthians 5:21 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

This is the cure for legalism. The Gospel of Grace is the news good that God has provided us with everything we need to be saved, and includes even OUR sanctification. Knowing and resting on Christ, even as Christians, we need to hear the Gospel of Grace everyday. Because its by the works of another; namely Christ Jesus and what he has done. Is what saves us. People have the tendency to locate their salvation in their response to the Gospel, rather than in the Gospel itself. Once we lose what saves us; Christ Jesus and his perfect works, and shift it to us in any form. We are lost. And this is precisely what Satan and demons are doing. Attempting to destroys this glorious Gospel of Grace that justified the ungodly. To some form of a do to list, or deceiving us in believing that the Gospel of Grace is not enough and we need to complete it. Well, then it becomes another Gospel, that is no Gospel at all, Paul says.

I think there is an issue here, because you seem to be conflating the law of death, with God's total will...as if, by fulfilling the law of death, you fulfill God's will, and everything beyond that is meaningless; but this is just as much of an error as the Catholics make, who say everything beyond a certain water mark is "supererogatory". God's will is not something that is finished, as the law is; God's will is something continual and which we are obligated to obey. As Kierkegaard pointed out, saying grace releases from one from the obligation of works is not forgiveness of sins, it is permission to sin.

So Luther is sharing the Gospel of Grace with Philipp Melanchthon, because he is struggling with Legalism, like we all do.

No, nowhere in what you quoted did Paul suggest we sin boldly...just the opposite, he said we are to become dead to sin. Someone dead to sin doesn't sin boldly anymore than a dead body which is dead to food eats boldly. Paul would say to Phil that he must deny himself, and that his desires and passions must be crucified with Christ.

Paul attacks the works Judaizers pushed (Philippians 3:2), which has nothing to with Phil here, unless he was troubled he wasn't eating kosher.