The insecurity of Calvinism

[Hammster]

So the "IF" in Matt 18 is just to be blot out because Luke says "When". I believe in both verses. I believe IF he finds his sheep there will be great joy, and that will be "WHEN" he finds it.

Do you think Jesus, sometimes, just can't find His sheep?

 

[DarthNeo]

Want it all you want and probably a good sign
but
Jesus said it was a work of the Holy Spirit -- period.

Jesus did not say -- now just say this little prayer with me.

Mountainmanbob

So how can a man be responsible for being lost if he is not called?

 

[zoidar]

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him (the sheep) should not perish but have eternal life."

Nothing here about non-sheep.

If you read John 10:16 you see what is meant by "the world":

"And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd."

So, it's not just the sheep of Israel, but the sheep from everywhere (the world).

John 12:46-47 explains John 3:16-17 and is good to read these parallely.

John 12:46-47

”I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.”

Who is Jesus refering to when he says that hasn't come to judge the world? Well, it says who in the sentence before, those who don't keep his words, the goats. So the world means both goats and sheep in John 3:16. So now we we can read John 3:16-17

"For God so loved the world (the whole world, goats and sheep), that he gave his only Son, that whoever (both goats and sheep) believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world (goats, all those that choose to not keep his words), but in order that the world (sheep, all those that choose to keep them) might be saved through him."

 

[Hammster]

John 12:46-47 explains John 3:16-17 and is good to read these parallely.

John 12:46-47

”I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.”

Who is Jesus refering to when he says that hasn't come to judge the world? Well, it says who in the sentence before, those who don't keep his words, the goats. So the world means both goats and sheep in John 3:16. So now we we can read John 3:16-17

"For God so loved the world (the whole world, goats and sheep), that he gave his only Son, that whoever (both goats and sheep) believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world (goats, all those that choose to not keep his words), but in order that the world (sheep, all those that choose to keep them) might be saved through him."

It's amazing what you can get it to say when you cut and paste it together.

John uses "world" in at least 8 different ways in his writings.

 

[zoidar]

Complete mischaracterization of Calvinism, but not surprising.

Then explain how a calvinist knows that Jesus died for him?

 

[Hammster]

Then explain how a calvinist knows that Jesus died for him?

Because we believe.

 

[zoidar]

Do you think Jesus, sometimes, just can't find His sheep?

It's not Jesus that can't find his sheep, it's we who hardens our heart in sin and turn away from him. Then that sheep will no longer be a sheep but a goat.

 

[zoidar]

Because we believe.

Exactly! That is what I have said. You have to check your faith to know. You have to know that you believe first, then you know Jesus died for you. I know first that Jesus died for me. That is my assurance. I don't need to check my faith at all, I just trust in the cross.

 

[zoidar]

It's amazing what you can get it to say when you cut and paste it together.

John uses "world" in at least 8 different ways in his writings.

Did you read it or did it feel better just to mock me?

8 different ways, maybe. But you see the similarities between John 3 and John 12?

 

[Hammster]

It's not Jesus that can't find his sheep, it's we who hardens our heart in sin and turn away from him. Then that sheep will no longer be a sheep but a goat.

Except that there's no scriptural support for that. There's nothing anywhere that says goats become sheep or vice versa.

 

[Hammster]

Exactly! That is what I have said. You have to check your faith to know. You have to know that you believe first, then you know Jesus died for you. I know first that Jesus died for me. That is my assurance. I don't need to check my faith at all, I just trust in the cross.

What's the difference between trust and faith?

 

[Hammster]

Did you read it or did it feel better just to mock me?

8 different ways, maybe. But you see the similarities between John 3 and John 12?

The similarities are the word "world". But you used eisegesis to come to your conclusion.

 

[JoeP222w]

Then explain how a calvinist knows that Jesus died for him?

Through the transforming work of the Holy Spirit, to remove a heart of stone and grant the person a heart of flesh, where God makes them a new creation. God regenerates the individual, then repentance and faith in Jesus Christ comes in. God initiates, God does the work, and God perseveres. That does not mean that the individual does not have a role and responsibility, but salvation is of God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It's not Jesus that can't find his sheep, it's we who hardens our heart in sin and turn away from him. Then that sheep will no longer be a sheep but a goat.

Good point. In Calvinism, if Jesus does not go and get the lost sheep (notice a lost sheep is still a sheep), than that person is not even a sheep anymore (because Christ does not bring them back) but is in that theology a goat.

 

[JoeP222w]

I know first that Jesus died for me. That is my assurance. I don't need to check my faith at all, I just trust in the cross.

I don't see this as being honest. Knowing Christ involves faith. When you say you "trust" in the cross, is not "trust" another word for faith?

The chair you are sitting in, you "trust" that it will hold you up and support you, you have "faith" in the chair properties. You know that the chair is holding you up through experience.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Except that there's no scriptural support for that. There's nothing anywhere that says goats become sheep or vice versa.

We all began as goats, who became sheep.

 

[Hammster]

Good point. In Calvinism, if Jesus does not go and get the lost sheep (notice a lost sheep is still a sheep), than that person is not even a sheep anymore (because Christ does not bring them back) but is in that theology a goat.

That's not Calvinism. There is no "if Jesus does not go and get the lost sheep".

 

[Hammster]

We all began as goats, who became sheep.

Asserting it does not equal scriptural support.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God regenerates the individual, then repentance and faith in Jesus Christ comes in. God initiates, God does the work, and God perseveres.

That really makes no sense to me though.

Because then it is not the individual having faith, it is the Holy Spirit giving faith. And God in His Word refers to faith and belief as the sole criteria like 50 times in the New Testament.

God's Word is just not worded in the way that you present it.

It does not say after you have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit you will have faith and in Romans 4, 5 and 6 it does not even talk about someone being touched by the Holy Spirit until AFTER they have faith.

Faith drives the bus that leads to Christ and the Holy Spirit in our lives.

 

[Hammster]

Show me that God has put all in any context but the use as properly used 'all' in those verses. Context would be the verses before and after, so please show me.

Which verses are you referring to?

In post #48 I shared parts of two verses.

As in "All who come to Him in faith" and "All who believe upon Christ shall be saved"

So if you can show me the context of all in these two verses by showing the context as you said that shows that all is only the elect, which is the Calvinist viewpoint.

I need the actual verses and reference to be able to address context.

Still waiting.