Miranda Devine: Reverse racism is now acceptable in Australia

[rambot]

Mhmm. So when whites aren't a majority anymore, does our supposed privilege go away too? If not, at what point does it stop?

Privilege isn't about the majority; it's about where the power (or convinience) lies.

 

[rambot]

That is one definition, but not the one that I would have thought we were talking about in this thread. But if that's what you think we are talking about, then I guess you are correct. But I can't help thinking you are missing the point.

I would love to hear your commentary about my experience in South Korea. It's in post #177. I think it provides some real world context that a "majority member" could use.

 

[greenguzzi]

I would love to hear your commentary about my experience in South Korea. It's in post #177. I think it provides some real world context that a "majority member" could use.

I suspect that your experience in Korea is no more "real world" than your experience in CA. It's just that the shoe was somewhat on the other foot. Maybe that's your point.

It's quite possible that the Aboriginal Australians I walk past when I'm working in Darwin think racist things about me, they might even say things that I wouldn't like to hear. Sure, if that happens then it's racists in the "personal perception" sense. But who cares, sticks and stones etc.. But as I said, that's not the point. The real racism, the type of racism I thought we were talking about, is the generations of systematic abuse that these Aboriginal Australians have been subject to.

 

[rambot]

I suspect that your experience in Korea is no more "real world" than your experience in CA.

The problem with that attitude is that COMPLETELY negates my completely relevant AND true experience simply because it doesn't match what you call "reality".
But I'm sorry to say, that is not how "reality" works.

It's just that the shoe was somewhat on the other foot. Maybe that's your point.

Essentially, yes.

It's quite possible that the Aboriginal Australians I walk past when I'm working in Darwin think racist things about me, they might even say things that I wouldn't like to hear. Sure, if that happens then it's racists in the "personal perception" sense. But who cares, sticks and stones etc.. But as I said, that's not the point. The real racism, the type of racism I thought we were talking about, is the generations of systematic abuse that these Aboriginal Australians have been subject to.

That is systemic racism; I agree 100%. It is, in MY opinion, a very real, and much worse kind of racism. BUT, that doesn't mean other things aren't racist.

 

[Redac]

Yes, it probably does.

Is that a good thing in your mind? Whites need to become minorities in order to get rid of their privilege?

And how does that square with the fact that even whites in South Africa of all places are also accused of having white privilege even now? It would appear that being a minority doesn't stop the privilege meme.

 

[Redac]

Privilege isn't about the majority; it's about where the power (or convinience) lies.

Power and convenience are two different things. Anyway, if even minoritization won't cure the evil whites of their oppressive privilege, then when is enough enough?

 

[rambot]

Power and convenience are two different things. Anyway, if even minoritization won't cure the evil whites of their oppressive privilege, then when is enough enough?

Yes. They are; would NEVER argue otherwise.
WHAT IF, they they don't need it to stop? What if they just want it to be acknowledged as real and understood for what it is?

 

[Redac]

Yes. They are; would NEVER argue otherwise.
WHAT IF, they they don't need it to stop? What if they just want it to be acknowledged as real and understood for what it is?

My response would be that yes, white privilege in a certain sense exists, though not quite the way leftists often talk about it. And?

It's never about just acknowledging it, it's about dismantling and destroying it.

 

[rambot]

My response would be that yes, white privilege in a certain sense exists, though not quite the way leftists often talk about it. And?

Is there any way I could convince you to elaborate on the ways it DOES exist?

It's never about just acknowledging it, it's about dismantling and destroying it.

With many of them it is about dismantling and destroying it yes. Especially those in academia. And I understand why they would want that; it is, essentially, an injustice.

That said, I think there are many more "common folk" who would see accepting it as a reality as a HUGE weight off their shoulders.

 

[greenguzzi]

The problem with that attitude is that COMPLETELY negates my completely relevant AND true experience simply because it doesn't match what you call "reality".
But I'm sorry to say, that is not how "reality" works.

I mustn't have made myself clear. Also I didn't use the word "reality" at all.

What I meant was that your experience in Korea is probably similar to a minority's experience in (say) AU or CA. Both are equally real, it's just that you have experienced what it's like to be on the receiving end. I didn't mean to imply that it negates your experience. I just thought it was a bit odd using the phrase "real world" to something that was just a change of perspective, rather than being any more or less real. But maybe that's just me.

That is systemic racism; I agree 100%. It is, in MY opinion, a very real, and much worse kind of racism. BUT, that doesn't mean other things aren't racist.

Agreed. But like I said, I thought we were talking about systematic racism; seems I was wrong.

Edited for spelling mistakes.

 

[rambot]

I mustn't have made myself clear. Also I didn't use the word "reality" at all.

What I meant was that your experience in Korea is probably similar to a minority's experience in (say) AU or CA. Both are equally real, it's just that you have experienced what it's like to be on the receiving end. I didn't mean to imply that it negates your experience. I just though it was a bit odd using the phrase "real world" to something that was just a change of perspective, rather than being any more or less real. But maybe that's just me.

Agreed. But like I said, I though we were talking about systematic racism; seems I was wrong.

nope. Sorry.
Realize we probably were on the same page all along. I think I may have read into your initial reply a bit to....."reactionarily" (not a word.... I know).

Apologies for the miscom!

G'day!

 

[greenguzzi]

Is that a good thing in your mind? Whites need to become minorities in order to get rid of their privilege?

I never said that. (You are affirming the consequent.)

Privilege probably doesn't actually need to be got rid of. The majority of people simply acknowledging their privilege would be a great start. Much of the damage probably stems from people being blind to their privilege.

And how does that square with the fact that even whites in South Africa of all places are also accused of having white privilege even now? It would appear that being a minority doesn't stop the privilege meme.

Even as a minority, whites may still have some privilege; although not much I would think. Having said that, I would content that it is unfair to accuse whites in South Africa as having privilege. It may not stop the meme, even if it stops the fact. I really don't like memes, they are irrelevant.

 

[rambot]

I never said that. (You are affirming the consequent.)

Privilege probably doesn't actually need to be got rid of. The majority of people simply acknowledging their privilege would be a great start. Much of the damage probably stems from people being blind to their privilege.

Funny. I said the exact same thing in another thread. My argument: Minorities in academia probably DO want it crushed and destroyed (my guess is they have hope for equality). I think most average folks are content with a real and honest acceptance that it is real and how it may impact minorities.

 

[greenguzzi]

Privilege is not a bad thing in itself. As a Christian I see it as a gift from God. It's how we use our privilege that makes it good or bad. But if a privileged person is blind to their privilege, then they are potentially going to do as much damage as those who misuse their acknowledged privilege.

 

[Redac]

I never said that. (You are affirming the consequent.)

So many people who talk about white privilege tend to make similar arguments and statements, so I apologize if I've unfairly jumped to conclusions about where you stand on this topic.

Privilege probably doesn't actually need to be got rid of.

I tend to think this. A majority populatiom having privilege of some sort is natural and largely unavoidable, and not even necessarily negative IMO.

The majority of people simply acknowledging their privilege would be a great start.

A great start to what?

Much of the damage probably stems from people being blind to their privilege.

What sort of damage are you referring to, and how does just being aware of a vague sort of "privilege" help address that?

Even as a minority, whites may still have some privilege; although not much I would think. Having said that, I would content that it is unfair to accuse whites in South Africa as having privilege.

As would I.

It may not stop the meme, even if it stops the fact. I really don't like memes, they are irrelevant.

Here I just mean the oft-repeated idea of supposed white privilege in SA, not some kind of funny picture.

 

[greenguzzi]

A great start to what?

A great start to ending the problems that are being caused by privilege. If you don't know what they are (or are alleged to be), then you have strong opinions for a subject that you don't understand the basics of.

What sort of damage are you referring to, and how does just being aware of a vague sort of "privilege" help address that?

Who said anything about it being vague? When I think and talk about my privilege, I'm quite specific.

Here I just mean the oft-repeated idea of supposed white privilege in SA, not some kind of funny picture.

Good grief, I do know what a meme is; not only is it not "some kind of funny picture", it's also not an "oft-repeated idea".

 

[greenguzzi]

I just got off the phone to a white South African friend of mine. She has just returned from a holiday in South Africa. I asked her about white privilege in South Africa. This is what she told me:

Firstly it's difficult to compare SA with AU or even the US. This is because every white knows blacks, and every black knows whites. Most white South Africans my age were raised by a black woman. In the US black folk and white folk are somewhat more separated, and in AU even more so. There is also the obvious difference of minority white rule during apartheid. So the idea of privilege and dominance being linked to populations does not apply. (So I may have been wrong when I said that privilege probably goes away when populations cease being the majority.)

Before the end of apartheid whites were privileged, and most of them acknowledged this.

Since Zuma came to power all people regardless of colour have become much worse off. It's not like the blacks became more privileged and the whites became less privileged. Other than those who were very wealthy and the corrupt newly wealthy, everyone is less privileged and poorer.

So now no one considers the whites to be privileged, and they aren't. But neither are the blacks. It's pretty much become like a third-world country for everyone. Like a third world country there are the corrupt few who are wealthy, and those few who who were extremely wealthy before the trouble started.

Those whites who grew up during apartheid still have the privilege of a good education and good healthcare. But many of those used their privilege to leave the country. Those who are still in SA don't really benefit from any privilege they once had. But their children don't even have that vestige of privilege. All kids, black and white, receive an equally poor education.

This is not the way to deal with privilege. As @rambot says, it's not to be crushed and destroyed. It's to be recognised, acknowledged, and shared. The problem with people ignoring and denying their privilege is that without acknowledgement no improvements can be made, and that can lead to the danger of those without privilege attempting to destroy and crush it.

 

[Redac]

A great start to ending the problems that are being caused by privilege. If you don't know what they are (or are alleged to be), then you have strong opinions for a subject that you don't understand the basics of.

I'm not of the opinion that every supposed "problem" with privilege that I've seen people cite before is actually a problem that needs to be fixed -- for example, white people being widely represented in media in a white majority country. That's why I'm asking you to be more specific about which problems you think need to be addressed.

Who said anything about it being vague? When I think and talk about my privilege, I'm quite specific.

Just not specific enough to give any examples.

Good grief, I do know what a meme is; not only is it not "some kind of funny picture", it's also not an "oft-repeated idea".

So you know exactly what I mean, you're just being fussy about my phrasing of it because... reasons.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes. They are; would NEVER argue otherwise.
WHAT IF, they they don't need it to stop? What if they just want it to be acknowledged as real and understood for what it is?

That's a rather tall order.

 

[greenguzzi]

So you know exactly what I mean, you're just being fussy about my phrasing of it because... reasons.

Because you seemed to assume that I didn't know something that most people know. If you are going to be condescending it's a good idea to also be accurate.