The Eternality of Hell

[Swan7]

Very much agreed @Toro. Who can fly with one wing? The Bible is supposed to be meditated on as a whole. Not only a piece or a portion because that is not whole truth.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I truly believe many of the Bible's concepts aren't hard to understand. They're just hard to except.

 

[Toro]

I truly believe many of the Bible's concepts aren't hard to understand. They're just hard to except.

Yes, very much so.Its hard to accept because IF we follow the word there are things we no longer can do that our flesh wants to do.

It all comes down to this:

God: Don't
Human: But, I want to.
God: I tell you dont because I love you, I know the purpose I have for you and that will only destroy you in some way.
Human: but...... i want to
God: Don't
Human: I did
God: *Sigh* Okay, let me help you clean up your mess. Pick up that tiny part of the mess that caused this and I will do the rest
Human: But.... I dont wanna clean... cant you do it all?
God: Yes, but Im not going to.
Human: No fair!!....... *runs to the bedroom and slams door*

 

[Swan7]

Lol I had to chuckle at that because that totally reminded me of well... me.

 

[Alithis]

Is it the fear of God that will save you from hell? Or is it the love of God that saves?

Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.



Meaning of the fear of the Lord
The main Hebrew and Greek words translated fear in the Bible can have several shades of meaning, but in the context of the fear of the Lord, they convey a positive reverence.

The Hebrew verb yare can mean “to fear, to respect, to reverence” and the Hebrew noun yirah “usually refers to the fear of God and is viewed as a positive quality. This fear acknowledges God’s good intentions (Ex. 20:20). … This fear is produced by God’s Word (Ps. 119:38; Prov. 2:5) and makes a person receptive to wisdom and knowledge (Prov. 1:7; 9:10)” (Warren Baker and Eugene Carpenter, The Complete Word Study Dictionary: Old Testament, 2003, pp. 470-471).

The Greek noun phobos can mean “reverential fear” of God, “not a mere ‘fear’ of His power and righteous retribution, but a wholesome dread of displeasing Him” (Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, “Fear, Fearful, Fearfulness”). This is the type of positive, productive fear Luke describes in the early New Testament Church:Fear of the Lord: What Does It Mean?

Fear will not be a part of the new earth, all that is needed is for us to see the scars on Jesus and sin will never rise again.

Any one who has truley come to know God..actually has a higher reverence and fear of him then they did before they knew him.
Love is not excused due to fear .
When you come to know how pure righteous and Holy God is.. And that he will not tolerate any form of continued sinfulness..that fear will drive you to true Godly repentance.

It is a fearfull thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
You will realize this is THE ONE who can throw you in hell fire and forget you
And is already justified in doing so and would be acting in righteousness to do so...

We would be fools to not fear him .

 

[Alithis]

I can understand that... but an exaggerated
claim on the horrors of hell tends to turn away far
more people than are scared into church by this method.

I have seen lots of interviews by Pastor Ray Comfort, I am
certain that he is totally sincere...... but I suspect that he turns
almost as many people away as he leads toward church..... because
we tend to think to ourselves....... if by becoming a Christian I have to
treat people like Pastor Ray Comfort does.......
no thank you!

This is an odd response..i dont recall Jesus ever telling us to go to church nor draw others to.

 

[Alithis]

have a question for these insensitive souls, will they actually take pleasure in watching their family screaming in the flames for eternity?

This is a carnal reasoning that it not aligned with the word of God..
For they will not remember the former things.

 

[Alithis]

How is it not just to do as said you would? God gives us MANY chances to turn to Him in our lives, IF we forsake those chances and choose the world are we not guilty of having a false idol? (Putting ANYTHING or ANYONE above ABBA the Father)

Jesus even warns that the Jews will not be spared.

Romans 11:21
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Jesus is the vine, we are the branches...... IF we do not bear spiritual fruit we WILL be cut off and we WILL be thrown into the fire. For if He will not spare the natural branches (those that belong to Him naturally through the Jewish faith..... why then would He spare those NOT of the natural vine UNLESS they abide in Him and He in them?)

If Hell were temporary, why then would the rich man speak of an unending torment IF he were "just dead and obliterated"?

Luke 16:19-31

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

"31" Even speaks that "even if one were to rise from the dead they would not be convinced" Sounds an awful lot like Christ, dont you think? Rose from the dead and yet, unbelief runs rampent, even by so called "Christians" that God is not who He says He is and will not do as He said He will.

This "Hell is temporary" or "Certainly a loving God would not throw me in hell forever" is the same lie of the devil that told Eve "You will not SURELY die if you eat of this tree".

I personally do not feel that hell is a punishment. Simply the conclusion of a choice. You choose life, or you choose death. Both eternal, but only one of them is the correct choice. God punishes those He loves so they are corrected from going asstray. What is the point of punishment and guidance IF one has already arrived at their destination?

God honors the choice we choose out of love because He gave us free will. What we choose to do with that free will is on our souls. We choose God, or we choose a dying world that leaves us seperate from God. If one wants nothing to do with God in this world, how would it be loving to FORCE them to be around a creator they wanted nothing to do with in life?

God is merciful, God is just.... but you can not think of those terms in light of a human mindset. You must look at it from a creators mindset. If I as an artist draw a work of art and then destroy it because I was not pleased with it, how would that drawing (lets say in this example it could talk) have any right to declare "Thats not fair" and that assessment hold MORE weight than what I decided as its creator? How is it not just if I tell that drawing I will destroy it if it does not do as I created it to do, then I do exactly as I told it I would?

Does that mean that one will NEVER sin? Absolutely not. However, it DOES mean that in ones walk they will reach a point where they are no longer LIVING in sin (excusing it as "well, nobody is perfect".) They will however stumble into sin now and then, but there is a difference between excusing it.

Weak example: Screaming a curse after you stub your toe in the dark at 2am and willfully going off on someone for no reason with cursing.

Do you HONESTLY believe that Jesus came, suffered all that suffering and punishment to save us from a hell that is "only temporary" or a case of "no longer existing at all" ? IF it were only temperary..... why even have it at all? Why not let EVERYONE in regaurdless of how they lived and the side they choose?

Lastly for those thinking we all end up in Heaven eventually even those that suffer hell, if Jesus says:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many a]">[a]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Matthew 18:3
Truly I tell you, He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

If hell were temparary and we all wound up going to Heaven after a time in hell.... then Jesus did not speak truth in the underlined part. He would have instead said "They will not enter the kingdom until after their time in hell is served" because Jesus did not/does not lie.

If "Hell is simply a destruction and ceasing to exist" how is it that the Rich man in the story of Lazarus can be so aware that he is suffering if he has been obliterated?

As the text says...so it shall be.

 

[Kenny'sID]

The only thing that has become clear to me here is how long hell lasts is still very unclear.

for example, we have this...

Because it is human reasoning. Of course no one will ever admit it aloud, but the whole "sins against an infinite God demand therefore infinite conscious punishment" argument is them saying what they think God should do about unbelievers, not what the Bible says He will actually do. The closest thing to infinite conscious punishment - which of course inevitably equates to torture, like it or not - mentioned in Scripture is the verse about the righteous going on to eternal life, but the unrighteous to eternal punishment, in Matthew 25:46. And people somehow weigh this one verse in as undoubtedly meaning eternal conscious torment even in lieu of battalions of verses elsewhere using terms such as "dead", "destroy", "perish", "consumed", "burned UP" (not just burned infinitely somehow without ever actually being killed by the fire so that the victim is alive to feel the pain of being burned by fire forever, but burned UP).

....then we have the mention of the "second death", and we are well aware of what death is. One will argue away the quoted, while the other argues away the second death...always the way.

I'm usually on the side of the hard truth, but on this, I just don't know.

Both scriptures seem be solid...yet.

 

[Greg Merrill]

The 'Lake of Fire' is the Second Death, which is where those who are Faithful unto Death are not Harmed by it.

You might try going back to the drawing board on that one.

Back to the drawing board to do what?

 

[Greg Merrill]

I think you have to use the scriptures and human reasoning. Remember that death of the body is permanent and lasts forever, unless resurrected and saved. The second death or lake of fire is death of the spirit and last forever, God can still save man from the lake of fire and does as he indicates in the Bible.

The Holy Ghost said he saved me from the lake of fire. Remember the fearful and liars are cast into there, which includes probably everyone at some point, and perhaps not, but it sounds nearly all inclusive. Hope that makes sense

Only the unsaved are "counted" as fearful and liars, not the saved. Yes, we Christians may still be fearful at times and lie at times, but the record of the saved is clean in the eyes of God as concerning eternity, for our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus, our Savior. Colossians 2:14

 

[devin553344]

Only the unsaved are "counted" as fearful and liars, not the saved. Yes, we Christians may still be fearful at times and lie at times, but the record of the saved is clean in the eyes of God as concerning eternity, for our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus, our Savior. Colossians 2:14

That's not how I believe. I believe if you are saved from the lake of fire then you're baptized with fire from the lake proving that you were dunked into it. It's the same as the water baptism. God performs it instead of man, and proclaimed it to me, and I'm not the only one, I have heard from other members on this forum that they have experienced the baptism with fire also.

See Luke: {3:16} John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: {3:17} Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will
throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Not everyone believes this but then I suppose they wouldn't until God baptized you with fire. It singed me physically and stung my body when he brought me into there.

 

[mark kennedy]

Hell, actually the Lake of Fire, is eternal punishment; conscious punishment.
The human nature (1Co 2:14) has a hard time accepting the concept at times, especially when they do not accept God's Word on the matter.
Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?

I'm not entirely sure but annihilation makes sense to me, it's a little awkward biblically. The lake of fire does burn forever but if God can create body and soul he can destroy it. Suffering forever seems pointless, the children of perdition don't go there to suffer, they suffer because they are thrown in there.

 

[CrystalDragon]

It will be a 'mercy killing' for the wicked and us as well as the "memory of them will cease", so we won't spend eternity feeling bad about lost relative and friends.

That scares me either way. Well basically have our memories altered in heaven so we don't think of our loved ones?

That seems more like some Borg-like-hell-Matrix-brainwashing than anything resembling heaven.

 

[Colter]

Hell, actually the Lake of Fire, is eternal punishment; conscious punishment.
The human nature (1Co 2:14) has a hard time accepting the concept at times, especially when they do not accept God's Word on the matter.
Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?

The common concept of Hell is a fabrication by shamans who have no truth of the Loving God to teach. Because primitive man believed in good ghosts and bad ghosts in the afterlife, they had to have a place for the bad ghosts to go.

In the original gospel of Jesus there is life, eternal sonship with God, or eternal death, the complete, decided rejection of salvation.

The idea that an infinite Loving God created a torture place for his finite children (children that he allowed Satan to fool) is just obviously an outrageous accusation against the Father.

 

[PollyJetix]

I'm not entirely sure but annihilation makes sense to me, it's a little awkward biblically. The lake of fire does burn forever but if God can create body and soul he can destroy it. Suffering forever seems pointless, the children of perdition don't go there to suffer, they suffer because they are thrown in there.

Matthew 25:41 Hell was created for the devil and his angels.
Will the devil and his angels be annihilated in hell?

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

No. Satan and demons will not be annihilated, but instead will be tormented forever.
Why? They are spirit beings.

Spirits cannot be totally eliminated. They can die, but they cannot be annihilated.


It is true that only God hath immortality. This is defined as never-dying.
Yet, devils are demonstrated as existing while spiritually dead.

Therefore, spiritual life is a quality of existence.
And it is a vast difference. A polar opposite.

It’s like positive and negative magnetic poles. Positive magnetism is where the outflow comes.
And out of God’s abundance of life, comes all of creation… and all of heaven.

What is negative magnetism? It’s like a black hole. It sucks positivity into itself, and is never satisfied. It gives nothing forth.

Another example is light and darkness. What is light? It’s a positive force.
What is darkness? It’s the absence of light.

I have seen a demon. What I saw was the spiritual quality that made him demonic. He was the outline of a “being”… but what filled that outline was nothing but spiritual negativity. It was a palpable personification of fear, death, hatred, malevolence… the polar opposite of everything that is good in God.

Therefore, spiritual death is not just like physical darkness, where darkness isn’t really anything.
Spiritual darkness is something.

To some, the idea of spiritual death is nothingness.
When it is far from that!

Satan and his demons are spiritually dead. But they are not annihilated. Instead, they exist forever in a state of ultimate evil.



You see, God is the Father of all spirits.
Hebrews 12:9 …shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

All spirit originated in God, who defines what it is to be spirit. God forever remains what He is. He cannot change or cease to exist. All angels’ spirits are offspring of God’s Spirit being. (That’s why they are called the sons of God in Genesis 6:2-4, Job 1:6, 2:1, and 38:7.)

We as humans were created a little lower than the angels (Psalm 8:5.)
Yet, we were given spirits (Ecclesiastes 12:7.)
And as such, all humans (as all angels) are considered to be the offspring of God (Acts 17:28.)

All spirits of men will return to God when we die (Ecc 12:7) because we, as the angels, will be required to give an account at the Judgment.



Yes, God can destroy both soul and body in hell. But he will never annihilate the spirit of man, just as he will never annihilate the spirits of devils. They will continue in spiritual death as they exist now. The spiritual darkness. The spiritual negativity. The spiritual blackness that continually sucks life into itself, and destroys it in the process.

Dr. Fudge conveniently ignored some very important Scriptures.
Jesus said the rich man lifted up his eyes in hell, being in torment. His torment did not result in his annihilation. He was not fading away from existence. And Jesus never hinted that if he would just hang on a bit longer, he wouldn’t hurt anymore.

Another parable Jesus gave that speaks directly to the nature of hell is of the unforgiving servant.
He had been forgiven. Yet, because he refused to forgive one who owed him, he himself was put in chains, and given to the tormenters, until the last bit that he had formerly owed, was paid back!
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

What is our original debt to God? It’s our sinfulness, which pays us death. Spiritual death. And that is NOT annihilation, but torment for eternity.

Jesus concluding comment which was NOT part of the parable, is succinct and to the point:
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Torment. Until all is paid of the original debt. That’s not annihilation, but exactly what the devil and his angels face, in Revelation 20:10.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Reformed2]

I view the annihilationists interpretation as correct; hell is the second death, and it is permanent. Those in Christ are immortal, not those who are to be destroyed. Yes the smoke from hell goes up forever and ever, in that it is permanent. I do not believe that the torture is ongoing for all eternity.

Matthew 10:28
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell".

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[SnowyMacie]

"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
What do you think?

I think it is human reasoning and our human understanding and notion of justice onto God. Hell is not a place, well it's really not a separate place but I'l get to that later, of "punishment" to begin with, but simply the result of a person's complete and total rejection of God. The reason why I don't believe in eternal conscience torment is because that's not how the Bible talks about it.When you take a look at all of scripture, the final destination for Christians isn't Heaven, it's Earth. Revelation, while highly symbolic, never says the Earth is going to be destroyed, but that the Earth will be restored and Heaven and Earth will become one. There, those that are saved in Christ will live and reign with God forever. What about those that were not saved in Christ, where will they go? Nowhere. Hell is being tormented by being in the presence of God while unable (willing or not, I'm a bit unsure as to which is true) accept God's love, thus being in communion and fellowship with him. In other words, the saved and unsaved are in the presence of God; to the righteous, it is comfort, to the wicked, agony.

Whenever Jesus talks about Hell, he uses the word Gehenna, which is the Greek name for the Valley of Hinnom, a valley outside of old Jerusalem that at the time of Christ was the city dump. It was a repulsive place of utter destruction, isolation, and an unquenchable fire (that's how they would dispose of the trash). Jesus used this as a metaphor because there was no concept of Hell in first century Judaism. Whenever Paul talks about Hell, he references Greek mythology in Hades and Tartarus (the closest thing in scripture to our current understanding of Hell), but since he doesn't believe in Greek mythology, he's using it as a metaphor. These metaphors are all talking about destruction, isolation, and despair. It's even described as "weeping and gnashing of teeth". When you look closer at the gospels regarding Hell, the wicked aren't in this self-destructive, isolated torment by demons in this completely separate place, they're cast out into the darkness, just outside seemingly. They cannot stand to be in the presence of God and so they are cast out into darkness, tormented by being unable to accept God's love and be in communion with them.

This ultimate, deep, and complete rejection of God's love and desire to be in communion with him causes humans to stop being image of God, and I believe it will result in them become less and less human to the point they ultimately destroy themselves. As stated constantly throughout scripture, the wages of sin is death. The Lake of Fire is called "the second death." I do not know how long this process will take, the Greek word for eternity is more closely translated to "an indefinite amount of time."

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm