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Revelation 12: 1&2

Meowzltov

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Yes... but it also says we are Abraham descendants and heirs to the promises to Abraham through Yahshua adoption Galatians 3:29
Gentile believers are "spiritual" heirs, therefore heirs to the "spiritual" promises. For example, you are not heirs to the Promised Land because that is not a "spiritual" promise. The spiritual promise was that the "seed of Abraham" (Christ) would bless all of mankind (bring salvation). You definitely have that promise!
 
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dfw69

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Gentile believers are "spiritual" heirs, therefore heirs to the "spiritual" promises. For example, you are not heirs to the Promised Land because that is not a "spiritual" promise. The spiritual promise was that the "seed of Abraham" (Christ) would bless all of mankind (bring salvation). You definitely have that promise!

That may be correct .... the new covenant indeed has better promises for Yahshua's firstfruits (i.e. The church) who have already accepted the new covenant in their hearts Hebrews 8:6 ....which would be in contrast of the promises to be given to the children of Israel after their redemption

I don't expect nor believe I have a land portion as one the tribes of Israel which they are promised to recieve in the future during the messianic age

I believe and expect a heavenly citizenship and a heavenly body to enter therein and a heavenly city is already prepared for us in the kingdom of heaven all made possible because of our father, "the son of God" Hebrews 12:22-23

Our father Yahshua has inherited all things in heaven and that is our heritage in him

I do believe after the messianic age , the heavenly city will come down upon a new heaven and new earth
 
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BABerean2

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The New Covenant made with Israel is yet to come.

That is not what Jesus said at the Last Supper.

Mat 26:28  For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 

Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 
(This was written in the present tense during the first century.)


Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 

The Uppercase Text is quoted from the Old Testament.
(Jeremiah 31:31-34)


Heb 8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— 
Heb 8:9  NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 
Heb 8:10  FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 
Heb 8:11  NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 
(All members in the New Covenant know God and have their own internal teacher in the form of the Holy Spirit. See John 14:26.)

Heb 8:12  FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 

Heb 8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
(This is written in the present tense and was written a few years before the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. It did vanish away completely in 70 AD.) 


The following proves that the New Covenant is now in effect and was in effect during the first century. It is also specifically applied to the Church.

We are not come to Mount Sinai, but to the New Covenant of Mount Zion.


Heb 12:18  For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 

Heb 12:19  and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 

Heb 12:20  (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW." 

Heb 12:21  And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.") 


Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 


Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 

Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 

....................................................

2Co 3:6  who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 
2Co 3:7  But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 

2Co 3:8  how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 
 
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dfw69

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That is not what Jesus said at the Last Supper.

Mat 26:28  For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 

Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 
(This was written in the present tense during the first century.)


Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 

The Uppercase Text is quoted from the Old Testament.
(Jeremiah 31:31-34)


Heb 8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— 
Heb 8:9  NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 
Heb 8:10  FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 
Heb 8:11  NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 
(All members in the New Covenant know God and have their own internal teacher in the form of the Holy Spirit. See John 14:26.)

Heb 8:12  FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 

Heb 8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
(This is written in the present tense and was written a few years before the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. It did vanish away completely in 70 AD.) 


The following proves that the New Covenant is now in effect and was in effect during the first century. It is also specifically applied to the Church.

We are not come to Mount Sinai, but to the New Covenant of Mount Zion.


Heb 12:18  For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 

Heb 12:19  and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 

Heb 12:20  (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW." 

Heb 12:21  And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.") 


Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 


Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 

Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 

....................................................

2Co 3:6  who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 
2Co 3:7  But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 

2Co 3:8  how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 

Baberean the new covenant exist but the kingdom of heaven on earth does not ... Jesus offered the messianic age to the Jews and they reject him so the Messianic age was postponed but one day he will return to the Jews to offer the messianic age and the new covenant that exist will make the way for them to recieve mercy and be saved then the promises to the Jews will be fulfilled and the messianic age will be realized
 
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BABerean2

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Baberean the new covenant exist but the kingdom of heaven on earth does not ... Jesus offered the messianic age to the Jews and they reject him so the Messianic age was postponed but one day he will return to the Jews to offer the messianic age and the new covenant that exist will make the way for them to recieve mercy and be saved then the promises to the Jews will be fulfilled and the messianic age will be realized

Not based on Romans chapters 9, 10, and 11.

All of the Jews did not reject Him.

On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", then as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36. On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

In Romans 9:6 Paul makes it clear that not all Israel is Israel.
Therefore, some Israel is Israel.


In Romans 9:8 we find two Israels. There is an Israel of the Flesh and an Israel of the Promise.

In Romans 11 we again find two groups of Israelites.
Paul compared it to the two groups of Israelites during the time of Elijah.
One group of Israelites turned from God and bowed to Baal. The remnant of 7,000 Israelites remained faithful to God and would not bow down.
Paul said there was also a remnant during his time.


There was a remnant who accepted Christ and remained in the Olive Tree and there were others who were broken off, but can be grafted back in, through faith in Christ. This is the "so", manner of their salvation in Romans 11:26. The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant fulfilled in Blood of Calvary.

The Olive Tree of Romans chapter 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.

Paul provides no other path to salvation in the chapter, outside of being grafted into the Olive Tree through faith in Christ.

.
 
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dfw69

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Not based on Romans chapters 9, 10, and 11.

All of the Jews did not reject Him.



On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", then as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36. On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

In Romans 9:6 Paul makes it clear that not all Israel is Israel.
Therefore, some Israel is Israel.


In Romans 9:8 we find two Israels. There is an Israel of the Flesh and an Israel of the Promise.

In Romans 11 we again find two groups of Israelites.
Paul compared it to the two groups of Israelites during the time of Elijah.
One group of Israelites turned from God and bowed to Baal. The remnant of 7,000 Israelites remained faithful to God and would not bow down.
Paul said there was also a remnant during his time.


There was a remnant who accepted Christ and remained in the Olive Tree and there were others who were broken off, but can be grafted back in, through faith in Christ. This is the "so", manner of their salvation in Romans 11:26. The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant fulfilled in Blood of Calvary.

The Olive Tree of Romans chapter 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.

Paul provides no other path to salvation in the chapter, outside of being grafted into the Olive Tree through faith in Christ.

.

True not all Jews rejected him ... and I agree with what you said...but none of what you said takes away from what god has planned for the sons of Israel according to the flesh ...

Though Jesus offered the messianic age ,Jesus had to be killed for our sacrifice... it was his destiny to be given to the hands of men who would put him to death for our salvation

So the messianic kingdom was postponed.... yet it is written that he will appear again to save the Jews for the Jews will cry out to God and God will send them his son again and this time he will establish the messianic kingdom .

..the Jews will not ever want to be so close to annihilation as will the case be during the great tribulation that the remnant will put themselves under the messiah protection and be will be safe forever and will never have to experience death or devastation nor destruction and war again within their city of Jerusalem because God will protect them

During the messianic kingdom:

Ezekiel temple is built
He will rule and reign 1000 years
The Jews will be saved and redeemed
The Jews will have their allotted land
Peace on earth
War will ceast
Lion will sleep with the lamb
Nations healed
Satan bound
Etc

All this will take place on earth because a remnant of Jews will receive him as the promised messiah
 
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BABerean2

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During the messianic kingdom:

Ezekiel temple is built
He will rule and reign 1000 years
The Jews will be saved and redeemed
The Jews will have their allotted land
Peace on earth
War will ceast
Lion will sleep with the lamb
Nations healed
Satan bound
Etc

Ezekiel temple is built

Rev_3:12  He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
(Where is the temple of God?)

He will rule and reign 1000 years

Christ will rule forever at the 7th trumpet, based on Revelation 11:15.

Rev 11:15  Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 


The Jews will be saved and redeemed

This started on the Day of Pentecost, when about 3,000 came to faith in Christ.
It is continuing now as thousands of Jews are coming to faith in the New Covenant.



The Jews will have their allotted land

Based on Matthew chapter 21 the Son is the "heir" to the land.
Based on Matthew 3:9 and 1 Timothy 1:4, race is no longer a factor in the New Covenant.
At the Second Coming we all get what is promised in Hebrews 11:16.



Peace on earth
War will ceast
Lion will sleep with the lamb
Nations healed

At the Second Coming.
 
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dfw69

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Ezekiel temple is built

Rev_3:12  He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
(Where is the temple of God?)
amen god has a temple throne room in heaven and we will be a permanent fixture within gods temple


Still does not take away from the fact the a new covenant temple is needed on earth during the messianic age to come




He will rule and reign 1000 years

Christ will rule forever at the 7th trumpet, based on Revelation 11:15.

Rev 11:15  Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 

He will both reign for 1000 years and forever...before the 1000 years marks an event and after the 1000 years marks an event to takes place .... but his reign is eternal




The Jews will be saved and redeemed

This started on the Day of Pentecost, when about 3,000 came to faith in Christ.
It is continuing now as thousands of Jews are coming to faith in the New Covenant.

Agree ...but an event will take place and many will fall away from the faith...for false messiahs and false prophets will arise ...thus the need to bring them back again to the true faith

The Jews will have their allotted land

Based on Matthew chapter 21 the Son is the "heir" to the land.
Based on Matthew 3:9 and 1 Timothy 1:4, race is no longer a factor in the New Covenant.
At the Second Coming we all get what is promised in Hebrews 11:16.

True race is not a factor.... that is why God will seek to save all nations Jews and Gentiles in the end times and established a kingdom on earth for the true heir which is his son , the son of David

Jesus is both son of God and son of David


Peace on earth
War will ceast
Lion will sleep with the lamb
Nations healed

At the Second Coming.

Amen along with establishing the temple ,a kingdom in Jerusalem , and giving the Jews their allotted land for the callings of god for his Jewish elect are sure to take place Romans 11:28-29
 
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parousia70

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My point is it's common sense to know about events coming up without knowing exact date or hours.

And your point is that the Apostles were incapable of such "common sense"?

I've used examples in this world to show the common sense of it. Others in the Bible did the same.

Yes, the apostles were authorized. You might do well to stave off the milk yourself and get to the meat by asking your angel "Why do you disagree with the apostles?
 
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BABerean2

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Amen along with establishing the temple ,a kingdom in Jerusalem , and giving the Jews their allotted land for the callings of god for his Jewish elect are sure to take place Romans 11:28-29

You cannot have it both ways.

You say race is not a factor in the New Covenant and then turn around and say a race of people must be given a piece of land.
In Matthew chapter 21 Christ revealed that He is the "heir" to the land.


You are ignoring 1 Timothy 1:4, which warns against endless genealogies.
John the Baptist warned his people against the same thing in Matthew 3:9.


Paul said in Romans 11 that the Jewish elect are those branches who remain in the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ. The others were broken off, but can be grafted back into the tree through faith in Christ. The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant fulfilled at Calvary. It is no waiting on a future fulfillment.

Christ is not coming to establish a kingdom in Jerusalem, as he revealed to the woman at the well. He said we will not worship in Jerusalem.

Based on Romans chapter 2, being a Jew is not about external circumcision.

There are two groups of Israelites in Romans 11:28-29, in the same way that Paul started the chapter with two groups of Israelites.
There are "they" who rejected the Gospel of the Messiah and are the enemies of God and there is another group of "they" who accepted the Messiah and are the elect. This is just like those in the days of Elijah. One group rejected God and another group was faithful. Paul ended the chapter in the same way that he started it. This interpretation is necessary to make it agree with Romans 9:6-8.




.
 
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parousia70

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What does this have to do with the fact that the Church is not Israel?

I'm so glad you asked!

The "church" is a Jewish society and is the faithful jews, who exist all the way back at the time of Moses (Acts 7:38). Jesus tells the Jewish apostles at Matt 16:18-19 that Peter was commanding God's church in his day, even as Moses had done so in his generation (Acts 7:38). None of the apostles knew of gentile inclusion into the Church until years after Pentecost. The Church was the Nazarene sect of the Jews of first-century Israel who entered into Messiah's New Covenant, as had been prophesied to Israel.

You however, seem to have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (as I mentioned, you count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And, to my original point you asked about, so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!
This is your mistake.
You are claiming the Wicked Sons are to be counted as "True Israel" while the Faithful remnant Sons are NOT True Israel. Which, as I said, is JUST like saying the wicked thousands that rejected Moses and were slain in the wilderness are true Israel, and the faithful remnant that survived to enter the promised land are NOT true Israel.

Such is the TRUE replacement theology...you have replaced faithful Israel with some other group that Moses, Jesus and the apostles would not recognize.

Finally, in real historic terms, that means that the Nazarene Jewish sect (Acts 24:5) was the only one that survived AD 70. All the other sects---Sadducees, Essenes, Pharisees, Zealots--were destroyed and went extinct at AD 70. This is historic reality, as Jewish and secular histories admit. And it is quite remarkable that what saved the Nazarenes was their NEW covenant teaching that taught them to prepare to detach from animal sacrifices, the Temple, physical circumcision, and the priestly class of Aaron. The jews who did this survived AD 70 while the ones who clung to a salvation via the Old Covenant were all wiped out. Amazing history.
 
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parousia70

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During the messianic kingdom:

Ezekiel temple is built
He will rule and reign 1000 years

And during that time He will require Human beings to render blood animal sacrifices directly to Him for atonement and acceptance?

And He will require all males to be Physically Circumcised before entering His sanctuary?

This is what you believe?
 
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Jachin Simeon

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And your point is that the Apostles were incapable of such "common sense"?



Yes, the apostles were authorized. You might do well to stave off the milk yourself and get to the meat by asking your angel "Why do you disagree with the apostles?

The way you argue by twisting someone's words and putting words in their mouth and completely taking what they say out of context is the way Satan works. Says alot about you that you work this way.
Let Jesus judge between you and I brother. I never twisted your words or took them out of context. You made a point, I countered with examples of how it could be so. Plain and simple debating. You obviously have nothing new for me to hear.
You have basically slandered another brother in Christ because you so desperately want to discredit this angel. What's your motive? I'm curious to say the least.
For the RECORD, I have never said the Apostles did not have Authority given to them by Jesus Christ. To the contrary they speak in the Spirit of Jesus. For the RECORD I have never contradicted Scripture. I only found loopholes to be able to ask the questions that I have of this Angel.
God is the witness of this Angel that he is his servant and has never contradicted Scripture or taught any other Gospel than that of Jesus, God's Christ. This I'm sure, one day you will see that you verbally slandered a servant of Jehovah Sabaoth. Either in this Life or in Heaven I'm Certain of it.
Good day Sir.
 
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parousia70

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For the RECORD I have never contradicted Scripture.

Really?

You say it's coming "Soon"

In Polar opposite fashion to your claim, The Apostles, 1900+ years ago said it was coming "soon"

Either you are right and they were wrong, or they were right and you are wrong.

My money is on the apostles being right and you being wrong.
 
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Jachin Simeon

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Really?

You say it's coming "Soon"

In Polar opposite fashion to your claim, The Apostles, 1900+ years ago said it was coming "soon"

Either you are right and they were wrong, or they were right and you are wrong.

My money is on the apostles being right and you being wrong.

Once again twisting words. Never said it was coming soon. Gave date for tribulation period and 60 day window for the Rapture. The only thing even remotely "soon" is the one about them breaking ground for the new Jewish Temple in May of 2022 beside the Dome of the Rock. And even then it will take 40 years to build. Get your facts straight before you come at me. I even told you this would happen out of my lifetime. Where do you get "soon" out of all that?
 
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dfw69

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And during that time He will require Human beings to render blood animal sacrifices directly to Him for atonement and acceptance?

And He will require all males to be Physically Circumcised before entering His sanctuary?

This is what you believe?

Parousia I won't pretend to know why the sacrifices to God are required during the messiahic age
Nor why the pilgrimage during tabernacle every year is required for the nations to send ambassadors

I believe people will naturally want to visit Jesus to behold him and here his words and certain requirements may be in order to enter his domain

I believe circumcision will continue with the Jewish people circumcising their children on the 8th day to pass on their heritage or lineage and the uncircumcised i.e. Gentiles must be circumcised in heart

I'm still searching those things out ... but it's obvious humans will multiply during this time and sins or offenses will be committed as well by some and perhaps sacrifices are in order to obtain mercy rather than judgement

It's also obvious that a temple will be erected during the messianic age as prophecied by Ezekiel 40-48
 
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dfw69

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I'm so glad you asked!

The "church" is a Jewish society and is the faithful jews, who exist all the way back at the time of Moses (Acts 7:38). Jesus tells the Jewish apostles at Matt 16:18-19 that Peter was commanding God's church in his day, even as Moses had done so in his generation (Acts 7:38). None of the apostles knew of gentile inclusion into the Church until years after Pentecost. The Church was the Nazarene sect of the Jews of first-century Israel who entered into Messiah's New Covenant, as had been prophesied to Israel.

You however, seem to have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (as I mentioned, you count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And, to my original point you asked about, so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!
This is your mistake.
You are claiming the Wicked Sons are to be counted as "True Israel" while the Faithful remnant Sons are NOT True Israel. Which, as I said, is JUST like saying the wicked thousands that rejected Moses and were slain in the wilderness are true Israel, and the faithful remnant that survived to enter the promised land are NOT true Israel.

Such is the TRUE replacement theology...you have replaced faithful Israel with some other group that Moses, Jesus and the apostles would not recognize.

Finally, in real historic terms, that means that the Nazarene Jewish sect (Acts 24:5) was the only one that survived AD 70. All the other sects---Sadducees, Essenes, Pharisees, Zealots--were destroyed and went extinct at AD 70. This is historic reality, as Jewish and secular histories admit. And it is quite remarkable that what saved the Nazarenes was their NEW covenant teaching that taught them to prepare to detach from animal sacrifices, the Temple, physical circumcision, and the priestly class of Aaron. The jews who did this survived AD 70 while the ones who clung to a salvation via the Old Covenant were all wiped out. Amazing history.

Gentiles were wicked and sinful and pagan and called not his people ... yet found mercy and heard the word of the lord and eventually called "the sons of God"

Same will be true in the future when the messianic era is offered again to the Jewish people they will hear the words and recieve them and will obtain mercy and be grafted back in ... and a remnant of all the tribes of Israel will be saved

The scriptures teach Jesus will again return to his own people to offer again the messianic kingdom where he sits as king and priest in Jerusalem as the promised messiah and son of David for 1000 years
 
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dfw69

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You cannot have it both ways.

You say race is not a factor in the New Covenant and then turn around and say a race of people must be given a piece of land.
In Matthew chapter 21 Christ revealed that He is the "heir" to the land.


You are ignoring 1 Timothy 1:4, which warns against endless genealogies.
John the Baptist warned his people against the same thing in Matthew 3:9.


Paul said in Romans 11 that the Jewish elect are those branches who remain in the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ. The others were broken off, but can be grafted back into the tree through faith in Christ. The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant fulfilled at Calvary. It is no waiting on a future fulfillment.

Christ is not coming to establish a kingdom in Jerusalem, as he revealed to the woman at the well. He said we will not worship in Jerusalem.

Based on Romans chapter 2, being a Jew is not about external circumcision.

There are two groups of Israelites in Romans 11:28-29, in the same way that Paul started the chapter with two groups of Israelites.
There are "they" who rejected the Gospel of the Messiah and are the enemies of God and there is another group of "they" who accepted the Messiah and are the elect. This is just like those in the days of Elijah. One group rejected God and another group was faithful. Paul ended the chapter in the same way that he started it. This interpretation is necessary to make it agree with Romans 9:6-8.




.

Are you trying to confuse me....race is not a factor in the sense that all people can be saved and redeemed ... but specific promises are given to the Jews and specific promises are given to the church

If Jesus is heir of the land then he is able to place whomever he wishes upon those lands he possesses

A race was called to be given specific promises and those promises will be fulfilled During the messianic age

Just as the new covenant offers better promises for the firstborn of Jesus i.e. The church ... the Jews will be given specific promises because they eventually accept Jesus to reign over them

What is an endless genealogy?

True Jesus said that to the woman in the well and his prophecy came true ... people worship god all over the world in gathering in different locations.....that does not mean nor take away from the fact that Jerusalem will not once again be the place to come see the son of David son of god king of Israel and high priest during the messiahic age to come for 1000 years

I agree there are saved and unsaved Jews but what you fail to understand is god called the Jewish people for a specific purpose... god said one day the whole house of Israel will be saved and they will be redeemed and god would establish his kingdom with them ...and the throne of David will rule over them ... this is the promised messianic age and what we Christians call the 1000 year reign of Jesus
 
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parousia70

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Once again twisting words. Never said it was coming soon. Gave date for tribulation period and 60 day window for the Rapture. The only thing even remotely "soon" is the one about them breaking ground for the new Jewish Temple in May of 2022 beside the Dome of the Rock. And even then it will take 40 years to build. Get your facts straight before you come at me. I even told you this would happen out of my lifetime. Where do you get "soon" out of all that?

From this:
. Does that mean the General doesn't tell his men when to be ready when the time draws near?

Who is the General in your parable? You?
 
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parousia70

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Parousia I won't pretend to know why the sacrifices to God are required during the messiahic age

If we are to believe scripture, they are required for Atonement of Sins and acceptance by Jesus:

Ezekiel 40:39

In the porch of the gate were two tables on each side, on which to slaughter the burnt offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering.


Ezekiel 42:13

the priests who are near to the LORD shall eat the most holy things. There they shall lay the most holy things, the grain offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering;


Ezekiel 43:20

'You shall take some of its blood and put it on its four horns and on the four corners of the ledge and on the border round about; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it.


Ezekiel 43:21

'You shall also take the bull for the sin offering


Ezekiel 43:22

'On the second day you shall offer a male goat without blemish for a sin offering


Ezekiel 43:27

'When they have completed the days, it shall be that on the eighth day and onward, the priests shall offer your burnt offerings on the altar, and your peace offerings; AND I WILL ACCEPT YOU.



For some reason, in your version of the Millennial Kingdom, Jesus "once for all", Sacrificing atonement on the Cross becomes Null and Void, entirely powerless and ineffectual to atone for any ones sin. That power gets transferred BACK to The Blood of Bulls and Goats.

I believe people will naturally want to visit Jesus to behold him and here his words and certain requirements may be in order to enter his domain

Won't "Every Eye" be able to see him without travelling to Israel?

Gentiles must be circumcised in heart

And of Flesh, if scripture is to be believed:

Ezekiel 44:9

'Thus says the Lord GOD, "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary
 
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