LDS More False Doctrine Right There in LDS Scripture!

[DJItalianspur]

That's adultery. Do you want to talk about adultery or polygamy? If you want to talk about polygamy, would you be interested in discussing whether you believe that Abraham and Jacob were horrible sinners?

I previously answered this question in posts 20 and 52.

You are welcome to that opinion.

This comment reeks of stereotyping willful ignorance.

Your statement here is incorrect. You are trying to falsely pedestal (and then character assassinate) a man everyone here acknowledges as a sinner and should not be pedestaled in the first place. If you want to get to the core of LDS beliefs and what testimony it really rests on, let's talk about Christ and the Holy Spirit.

'This comments reeks of stereotyping wilful ignorance'

Are you not proving this? You are very quick to get away from Joseph Smiths live and his works. Any chance you may know some of thee wicked things he has done?

 

[withwonderingawe]

I don't believe wild claims that someone is a prophet because they say they, this is going against the word of God, there is a criteria God gives us.

I understand it is very difficult to look at Joseph Smith and look for the good fruit in his life. Looking at his life and works it fails to meet biblecal standards.

That depends on which side of the story you believe, a little history for you.

There was a man named Doctor Philastus Hurlbut, Doctor was his given name not his title, his mother had great hope for him. The Hurlbut family many years before had some sort of run in with the Smith family over a horse. The Smiths won the court battle but Hurlbuts kept the grudge. Philastus went to Ohio and joins the Mormon Church. Joseph welcomed him into his home and made him an Elder in the Church. Philastus repaid this kindness by committing fornication with a young girl in the neighborhood, no one knows who. He was excommunicated not once but twice because he would not repent. His whole purpose on going there was to find something to expose Joseph for a fraud, he found nothing. So he went to Joseph's boyhood home to dig up the dirt. He paid people money to give him juicy stories. These are called the Hurlbut affidavits and they are filled with all kinds of similar sounding stories; the Smiths were a lazy do nothing bunch of people who did nothing but dig for gold. A great deal of what people think they know about Joseph Smith and his family are built on those stories which were placed in the first anti Mormon book called Mormonism Unveiled. Hurlbut's reputation for womanizing was so bad that it had to be printed under another man's name E.D Howe. It's this book which first brings up the Spaulding manuscript accusations.

Now I've visited their farm in Palmyra New York, it is a beautiful place. I found this at the website called fairmormon;

"...To create their farm, for instance, the Smiths moved many tons of rock and cut down about six thousand trees, a large percentage of which were one hundred feet or more in height and from four to six feet in diameter. Then they fenced their property, which required cutting at least six or seven thousand ten-foot rails. They did an enormous amount of work before they were able even to begin actual daily farming. (each of those trees had stumps that had to be dug out of the ground also)

Furthermore, in order to pay for their farm, the Smiths were obliged to hire themselves out as day laborers. Throughout the surrounding area, they dug and rocked up wells and cisterns, mowed, harvested, made cider and barrels and chairs and brooms and baskets, taught school, dug for salt, worked as carpenters and domestics, built stone walls and fireplaces, flailed grain, cut and sold cordwood, carted, washed clothes, sold garden produce, painted chairs and oil-cloth coverings, butchered, dug coal, and hauled stone. And, along the way, they produced between one thousand and seven thousand pounds of maple sugar annually. "Laziness" and "indolence" are difficult to detect in the Smith family" Peterson

Their farm on the tax roles was worth 71% more than the most of the farms in the area. So we can see that the affidavits are nothing but lies.

There is another quote from a neighbor which you will not find in anti Mormon sources
"Former neighbor Orlando Saunders recalled that: "They were the best family in the neighborhood in case of sickness; one was at my house nearly all the time when my father died....[The Smiths] were very good people. Young Joe (as we called him then), has worked for me, and he was a good worker; they all were. . . . He was always a gentleman when about my place." Joseph Smith/Early Smith family history/Lazy Smiths - FairMormon

There is another book written by John C. Bennett called History of the Saints is also a sources for much of the false stories about Joseph. Bennett was mayor of Nauvoo and a counselor in the First Presidency, I mean a very close friend to Joseph. Then one day he was caught committing adultery with Sarah Pratt the wife of Apostle Orson Pratt, so he was excommunicated. When Orson came home from his mission his wife and Sarah filled him with all kinds of stories about the Joseph and Orson stepped out of the Church.

Now think about that Joseph Smith had started practicing plural marriage yet he excommunicates his next in command for adultery, now does that make since? It does if you realize Joseph did not consider plural marriage adultery.

When the Holy Spirit leaves a person the devil rushes in and that's what happened to Bennett. It was he that accused Joseph of treason with the attempt on Gov Boggs life, prostitution and adultery. He egged on the attempts by Missouri to extradite Joseph back to stand trial, (this is an important time in American history of law because it establish some of the legal rules when it comes to a writ of habeas corpus) In his later life Bennett got caught selling diplomas and had many accusations of adultery. His book is also full of lies and distortions, he has a whole chapter on Sarah Pratt and how Joseph tried to seduce her when it was the other way around. However Orson began to get the other side from different people and came to the conclusion that his wife and Bennett were at fault. He returned to the Church and retained his apostleship. He never divorced Sarah and he continued to support her financially but they never lived as husband and wife again. (at least that's my understanding, she was a very bitter woman)

Another book written much later is No One Knows My History by Fawn Brodie. She uses some of the stories or at least the concepts of the other to books to build her story. She has Joseph jumping in and out of bed with every woman that walked passed him. She gives a list of children who she claimed be long to Joseph but 70 years later with the science of DNA they can't find a single one.

My point is that much of what you think is the history of Joseph Smith is based on accusations written by men who were adulterers themselves and trying to cover their own sins by accusing Joseph.

At the time of Joseph Smith and up into the early 1900s there was no rules to writing history, historians just wrote to fit their own perceptions and agendas. Much of it is just propaganda and we all need to learn how to read through that to find the truth. Today's historians have to have indexes full of notes and references. My only problem with some of today's historians even Mormon ones is they give equal weight to every crackpot out there. I get tried of "could be" and "maybe" while trying to read the minds of long dead people.

 

[Jane_Doe]

We are getting off the main point or my my point. Why do you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?

Because God told me, via His Holy Spirit. Same way He told me Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Look at this

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 which reads as follows:

And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

So you would propose that rather than asking God to testify of Truth (James 1:5), you would rather lean into your own understanding of which things count as prophesy and which things count as fulfilled? How does that jive with Proverbs 3:5?

Examples from the Bible of prophecies given by people in the Bible that were not being fulfilled or fulfilled in ways not excepted: Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Nathan, an angel of God, and Jonah. Does this mean God is false? No! It means that prophecy is a messy thing, sometimes dependent on the actions of mortals (Jeremiah 18:7-10) and frequently fulfilled in ways we didn't anticipate.

Are you from a Mormon family?

I don't know your purpose of asking this question but I'm just going to give this warning in case it is necessary.
Warning: don't play the "You're only LDS because you grew up that way and am a poor brainwashed child who's never really examined anything" card. Such is a great way to prove oneself to be an arrogant fool who does not know Christ at all.




Bytheway, I have questions for you.
Is your goal here to try to convince LDS folks to adopt your beliefs?
How do you intend to do that by demonstrating your lack of knowledge of LDS beliefs?
Should you be showing the strength of your beliefs?
Are you aware that <10% of ex-Mormons join another Christian faith, but ~80% give up on Christ and God completely?

 

[Jane_Doe]

'This comments reeks of stereotyping wilful ignorance'

Are you not proving this? You are very quick to get away from Joseph Smiths live and his works. Any chance you may know some of thee wicked things he has done?

Why are you so eager to talk about someone other than Christ? That's the center of my faith, and I presume yours as well.

I already addressed your questions about Joseph Smith, repeatedly.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Yes, his soul will not be left in hell but

1 John 3:15
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

David's sin of adultery led to him committing murder.

Your comments are a wild speculation because you have no proof that David "lost" any so-called "exhaltation".

 

[withwonderingawe]

hat about 1 tim3:2? How many wives?

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife,

Why? Were there some who had more? Could a deacon have two or three?

Yes I know of the list of prophecies which some say were not fulfilled but again that's all in the eye of the beholder. Give me one and we'll look at it.

Yes we are a Mormon family, my mother joined the church when I was 8 and the rest of the family followed. My brothers have both been bishops and most of the young men in the family have gone on missions. My hubby's family are long time Mormons, his great great grandfather Levi Jackman was taught the Gospel by Joseph Smith. He entered the Salt Lake Valley the day before Brigham Young did and was on the Council of Fifty and a Stake Patriarch. You can read a little about him here; Autobiography of Levi Jackman (1797-1876)

 

[withwonderingawe]

Your comments are a wild speculation because you have no proof that David "lost" any so-called "exhaltation".

Just reading the Bible

 

[withwonderingawe]

Any chance you may know some of thee wicked things he has done?

Yes,

In D&C 3 which was given in July of 1828 Joseph is raked over the coals by the Lord and his greatest weakness is laid out for all to see.

6 And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men.

7 For, behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words—

8 Yet you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of trouble.

Joseph lacked education and he must have felt somewhat inferior to the men around him who were well educated. Every time he made a blunder it was when he allowed men to persuade him to do something contrary to God’s will.

In this section he’s being chastised because he let Martin Harris take the 116 page of the Book of Mormon home after the Lord had said NO twice. “ Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.” James 3. On the third time the Lord said well alright but beware of the consequences. Martin lost the pages.

The Lord let Joseph stumble around a bit, he works with his prophets weaknesses. Look at Jonah and his faults, or Moses. None of them are perfect and the Lord is trying them as much or more as he tries us.

“…he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver…” Mal 3

There are two occasions which I can think of besides this particular point in D&C 132 where he let men persuade him to go the wrong way.

One time was with the Kirtland bank in 1837 which went belly up. He was trying to find away to financial support the Church and he was drawn into this bad idea. I guess he took it to the Lord and was told well Joseph you do what ya think is best, it will be okay if men obey my commandments. (I’m paraphrasing someone journal) But of course men did not obey and within a short time as fast as he was putting his own land and money into the bank others were coming in at night and literally steeling the money and notes out of it. The Church has all of the paper work and bank records which have been gone over and published in the series called The Joseph Smith Papers. It shows Joseph was swindled out of thousands of dollars and then accused of being the swindler. He did over a period of years and after selling his lands pay back all of the debts he had been left with.

In 1838 Joseph finally humbles himself and asks Lord how should I do this and then the Lord teaches him about tithing, see D&C 119.

The third time I can think of is when he allowed the destruction of the printing press in Nauvoo which was printing and anti paper called The Wasp. It was deemed a public nuisance by the city council, which at the time was perfectly legal. A group of Mormons got a little carried away and destroyed it. This was used as the crux of the excuses which eventually led to his death at Carthage.

Like I said when ever he allowed the persuasion of men he got himself in trouble.

 

[DJItalianspur]

Because God told me, via His Holy Spirit. Same way He told me Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

So you would propose that rather than asking God to testify of Truth (James 1:5), you would rather lean into your own understanding of which things count as prophesy and which things count as fulfilled? How does that jive with Proverbs 3:5?

Examples from the Bible of prophecies given by people in the Bible that were not being fulfilled or fulfilled in ways not excepted: Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Nathan, an angel of God, and Jonah. Does this mean God is false? No! It means that prophecy is a messy thing, sometimes dependent on the actions of mortals (Jeremiah 18:7-10) and frequently fulfilled in ways we didn't anticipate.


I don't know your purpose of asking this question but I'm just going to give this warning in case it is necessary.
Warning: don't play the "You're only LDS because you grew up that way and am a poor brainwashed child who's never really examined anything" card. Such is a great way to prove oneself to be an arrogant fool who does not know Christ at all.




Bytheway, I have questions for you.
Is your goal here to try to convince LDS folks to adopt your beliefs?
How do you intend to do that by demonstrating your lack of knowledge of LDS beliefs?
Should you be showing the strength of your beliefs?
Are you aware that <10% of ex-Mormons join another Christian faith, but ~80% give up on Christ and God completely?

I believe the scripture is very clear on the claims of a false prophet. Paul also gives us a criteria for false teachers in the way they live. Why is the instruction and warning here if we are not too apply them?

Why do you give me a warning regard 'playing that card' if you have been genuinely changed by God through Christ this is one of the most powerful things you have!

My goal is to ask questions and seek answers to a simple question is the lds from god or from man.
If from God where is the proof?
My lds beliefs are based on various sources including the Book of Mormon and conversations with mormons.

How do you mean showing the strength of my beliefs - do you mean proving the bible or the fruits of a Christian?

Interesting stats regarding ex mormons, the question could be asked (and we don't) know the answer. Did the 80% have faith in the organisation rather than God?

Feel free to ask me about my faith?

I think you can tell that my faith is in the bible and I believe that is how God communicates to us today. But over to you...

 

[fatboys]

I believe the scripture is very clear on the claims of a false prophet. Paul also gives us a criteria for false teachers in the way they live. Why is the instruction and warning here if we are not too apply them?

Why do you give me a warning regard 'playing that card' if you have been genuinely changed by God through Christ this is one of the most powerful things you have!

My goal is to ask questions and seek answers to a simple question is the lds from god or from man.
If from God where is the proof?
My lds beliefs are based on various sources including the Book of Mormon and conversations with mormons.

How do you mean showing the strength of my beliefs - do you mean proving the bible or the fruits of a Christian?

Interesting stats regarding ex mormons, the question could be asked (and we don't) know the answer. Did the 80% have faith in the organisation rather than God?

Feel free to ask me about my faith?

I think you can tell that my faith is in the bible and I believe that is how God communicates to us today. But over to you...

They would not have warned us about false prophets and teachers if there were not to be true ones. Where are the true prophets?

 

[Rescued One]

That depends on which side of the story you believe, a little history for you.

There was a man named Doctor Philastus Hurlbut, Doctor was his given name not his title, his mother had great hope for him. The Hurlbut family many years before had some sort of run in with the Smith family over a horse. The Smiths won the court battle but Hurlbuts kept the grudge. Philastus went to Ohio and joins the Mormon Church. Joseph welcomed him into his home and made him an Elder in the Church. Philastus repaid this kindness by committing fornication with a young girl in the neighborhood, no one knows who. He was excommunicated not once but twice because he would not repent. His whole purpose on going there was to find something to expose Joseph for a fraud, he found nothing. So he went to Joseph's boyhood home to dig up the dirt. He paid people money to give him juicy stories. These are called the Hurlbut affidavits and they are filled with all kinds of similar sounding stories; the Smiths were a lazy do nothing bunch of people who did nothing but dig for gold. A great deal of what people think they know about Joseph Smith and his family are built on those stories which were placed in the first anti Mormon book called Mormonism Unveiled. Hurlbut's reputation for womanizing was so bad that it had to be printed under another man's name E.D Howe. It's this book which first brings up the Spaulding manuscript accusations.

Where is your proof for your anti-Hurlbut accusations?

Why would Priesthood holders baptize Mr. Hurlbut twice if they had discernment to know what kind of man he was?

DISCERNMENT, GIFT OF
See also Gifts of the Spirit
To understand or know something through the power of the Spirit. The gift of discernment is one of the gifts of the Spirit. It includes perceiving the true character of people and the source and meaning of spiritual manifestations...

• That ye may not be deceived, seek the best gifts:D&C 46:8, 23

 

[Jane_Doe]

I believe the scripture is very clear on the claims of a false prophet. Paul also gives us a criteria for false teachers in the way they live. Why is the instruction and warning here if we are not too apply them?

I have, along with every other scriptural means of investigation.

Why do you give me a warning regard 'playing that card' if you have been genuinely changed by God through Christ this is one of the most powerful things you have!

Your comment here does not align with your question. But why did I warn you? Because I've seen way too many people assume a person is LDS only because they are "brainwashed" and "only because you don't know any better" or "only because of family pressure". Rather than watch you make that same mistake (if you were going, I do not know), I just nipped that in the bud.

My goal is to ask questions and seek answers to a simple question is the lds from god or from man.

And if the answer is "yes, it is God's Church", are you willing to listen to that answer?

If from God where is the proof?

Ask Him yourself! The only person stopping you from seeking that is you.

How do you mean showing the strength of my beliefs - do you mean proving the bible or the fruits of a Christian?

Rather than trashing someone else's beliefs, why don't you share the joy you find in yours?

I think you can tell that my faith is in the bible and I believe that is how God communicates to us today. But over to you...

Do you believe God still speaks DIRECTLY to men today? Does He answer your prayers? Can you come to Him with questions and get answers?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Where is your proof for your anti-Hurlbut accusations?

Why would Priesthood holders baptize Mr. Hurlbut twice if they had discernment to know what kind of man he was?

DISCERNMENT, GIFT OF
See also Gifts of the Spirit
To understand or know something through the power of the Spirit. The gift of discernment is one of the gifts of the Spirit. It includes perceiving the true character of people and the source and meaning of spiritual manifestations...

• That ye may not be deceived, seek the best gifts:D&C 46:8, 23

LDS believe a person choose to follow God (or not). We don't believe a person is forced or predetermined to be evil.

 

[Rescued One]

They would not have warned us about false prophets and teachers if there were not to be true ones. Where are the true prophets?

"A more modern definition of prophet is someone who spreads God's truths."
Prophet - Wikipedia

True prophets are definitely not in the Mormon church.

 

[Rescued One]

Yes, his soul will not be left in hell but

1 John 3:15
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

David's sin of adultery led to him committing murder.

Can someone be forgiven for murder? Or is he condemned forever?

 

[fatboys]

Can someone be forgiven for murder? Or is he condemned forever?

What do the scriptures say

 

[Rescued One]

What do the scriptures say

Mark 3
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Exodus 2
Moses Commits Murder and Flees to Midian
11 In the course of time Moses grew up. Then he went to see his own people and watched them suffering under forced labor. He saw a Hebrew, one of his own people, being beaten by an Egyptian. 12 He looked all around, and when he didn’t see anyone, he beat the Egyptian to death and hid the body in the sand.

13 When Moses went there the next day, he saw two Hebrew men fighting. He asked the one who started the fight, “Why are you beating another Hebrew?”

14 The man asked, “Who made you our ruler and judge? Are you going to kill me as you killed the Egyptian?” Then Moses was afraid and thought that everyone knew what he had done.

15 When Pharaoh heard what Moses had done, he tried to have him killed. But Moses fled from Pharaoh and settled in the land of Midian.

If Moses was not forgiven, why do Mormons say:

A translated person is one who has been changed to a state where he or she is no longer subject to the vicissitudes of physical life, such as being subject to death, but who has not yet been resurrected (3 Ne. 28:38-39). This person will at some future point die and be resurrected, just as everyone else must (3 Ne. 28:40). The inhabitants of the entire city of Enoch were translated (D&C 45:11-12). In later times, we know that Moses and Elijah were translated (2 Kings 2:11), and the Book of Mormon gives us reason to believe the prophet Alma was translated (Alma 45:19). Moses and Elijah in particular needed to lay hands on Peter, James, and John to transmit priesthood keys before the resurrection (Matt. 17:1-3) and thus needed to be preserved in the flesh. We are also told that the three Nephite disciples (3 Ne. 28:27-29) and John the Beloved (D&C 7) were translated in order to be able to serve on the earth and help the work of the Lord.
What are the differences between exalted, resurrected and translated beings? - Ask Gramps - Q and A about Mormon Doctrine

 

[Rescued One]

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife,

Why? Were there some who had more? Could a deacon have two or three?

No, there weren't some who weren't qualified. Those were the instructions given.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Where is your proof for your anti-Hurlbut accusations?

Why would Priesthood holders baptize Mr. Hurlbut twice if they had discernment to know what kind of man he was?

DISCERNMENT, GIFT OF
See also Gifts of the Spirit
To understand or know something through the power of the Spirit. The gift of discernment is one of the gifts of the Spirit. It includes perceiving the true character of people and the source and meaning of spiritual manifestations...

• That ye may not be deceived, seek the best gifts:D&C 46:8, 23

He profess his sin and said he had repented and then he aid some other things and got himself into trouble again. The hand of God is always held out to those who ask for forgiveness.

 

[thesunisout]

Because God told me, via His Holy Spirit. Same way He told me Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Hi Jane, the Holy Spirit didn't tell you that Joseph Smith is a prophet.