Loving the Unelect

[Jim Langston]

it doesn't say he will save everyone in that verse. it says he will save those who believe.

now we need to figure how someone comes to believe. ezekiel 36:26-28 tells us how and it's work of God upon the sinner.

No, it does not, but that was not the question, was it? Jesus died for everyone, but only those who follow his teachings will be saved.

 

[Blade]

If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

John 3:16-17...for GOD so loved the WORLD He gave His only son. There are MANY about GOD loving this world. See He loves those that hate Him.. that kill do such evil things. Yet He truly loves them...and says.. I died for you.. I LOVE YOU! YES PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS

 

[Thursday]

as expected,

1tim4:10 is merely reiterating acts 4:12 in stating man cannot be saved any other way besides through Christ but that those who actually believe will be the ones that recieve salvation.

the term 'world' refers to all kinds of people. revelation 5:9 states Jesus saving people from every tribe tongue people and nation. it doesn't refer to every single human being.

every single human being wasn't going after Jesus in john 12:19

you aren't a universalist are you?


off to work

You are distorting scripture. That is clearly not what it says. You are twisting the Word of God to say what you want it to say. Whose side are you on? Seriously.


Let the objective read compare the words above with scripture, below:

1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[zoidar]

If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

Yes, it would mean that. But the fact is that God loves everyone the same, he doesn't love some people more. God tells us to love everyone, right. Why? Because that is the way God loves. Even we can't love as perfect as he, we are to be more like him, and to grow in love for everyone. That's is the second most important commandment, to love our neighbor as ourself.

"The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these." / Mark 12:31

 

[Victor E.]

If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

"Do not love the world [of sin that opposes God and His precepts], nor the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust and sensual craving of the flesh and the lust and longing of the eyes and the boastful pride of life [pretentious confidence in one’s resources or in the stability of earthly things]—these do not come from the Father, but are from the world. The world is passing away, and with it its lusts [the shameful pursuits and ungodly longings]; but the one who does the will of God and carries out His purposes lives forever." 1 John 2:15-17

 

[ldelporte]

I've struggled with the notion that God was supposedly love and reconciling that with the notion that he also sends people he created to Hell.

One thing I have (somewhat) concluded is that whatever I think love is, is not the same as how God defines love.

It would seem that the righteous love in this context is one that demands justice. Also, I think his love would be proven by his willingness to provide what was necessary to forgive us (in giving Jesus' life for ours).

Additionally I've heard explanations that show our gift of free will as a gesture of God's love. Afterall, a relationship with God that was mandatory, without free will to reject it, would not be a genuinely loving relationship. So, in his love, he gives us the choice to reject him. But, considering God is the source of all goodness, to reject his presence is to choose a terrible existence.

So, to answer the original question. No. You do not love as much as God does. Your love is not better than God's. None of us do.

 

[Kutte]

Of course it is. What we believe affects how we think, what we say, and what we do. What the world believes is entirely the business of the rest of the world. Contradict me as you wish; that's what discussion forums are for.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Well said, Strivax, God bless

 

[owl-inc]

How I choose to honor the Father is honestly none of your concern is it? If I choose to show reverence in that manner who are you to say that I can not?

Wow! Hypersensitive to rebuke? Not the greatest character trait you can have. As far as who am I?
Well I don't hold myself high so that I cry at the slightest rebuke. However, take heed because God is developing "a people" that are imbued with the power of judgement. Excerpt from Book of Jude 1:14; "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment on all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed"
Judgment is intended deliver unto the narrow path of life, and not intended to condemn.
As it says in Proverbs "open rebuke is better than hidden love". Pray for a less defensive and thicker skin. Otherwise you may end up sounding like a fragile pagan.

 

[John Hyperspace]

If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

One of the easiest ways for me to rule out certain doctrines as not being of God, but of men instead, is when a doctrine ends up making me better than God. For example, if someone tries to say to me that God won't forgive His enemies, it makes me better than God, and so I know the doctrine is a corrupt doctrine coming from the mind of men and is not of God. There are so many doctrines that are easily rejected by simply thinking them all the way through, and by what the actual ramifications cause, that it is a wonder anyone believes them. But, they believe them because they don't (or, can't) comprehend the ramifications of what they are teaching.

But, if God only loves the elected, then yes you would be better than God for your love of the unelected. But, clearly you can't be better than God (that is, your love can't be better than the source of all love) and so we can rule out that God doesn't love the unelected, yes?

 

[Jim Langston]

One of the easiest ways for me to rule out certain doctrines as not being of God, but of men instead, is when a doctrine ends up making me better than God. For example, if someone tries to say to me that God won't forgive His enemies, it makes me better than God, and so I know the doctrine is a corrupt doctrine coming from the mind of men and is not of God. There are so many doctrines that are easily rejected by simply thinking them all the way through, and by what the actual ramifications cause, that it is a wonder anyone believes them. But, they believe them because they don't (or, can't) comprehend the ramifications of what they are teaching.

But, if God only loves the elected, then yes you would be better than God for your love of the unelected. But, clearly you can't be better than God (that is, your love can't be better than the source of all love) and so we can rule out that God doesn't love the unelected, yes?

Actually, the OP is making an excellant point. According to Calvanism only the elect are saved and it's all from God's will. From a strictly Calvanistic point of view God arbitrarily sends some people to heaven, the Elect, and all others to hell. If this were true them it could be said that God loves the elect and not the unelect.

Fortunately, not only the elect can be saved, so this is not true.

I believe the OP is trying to point out a falacy with the Calvanism doctrine.

Don't blame the OP, blame Calvaniststic doctrine.

 

[Widlast]

So, do you think all Christians are morally good, and all non-Christians, however sincere, are morally bad?

I have to tell you, this is not an ethical position I would like to have to defend.

Best wishes, Strivax.

A sincere idiot is still an idiot.
The issue has everything to do with being willing to accept reality, or not. By definition, Hindus, Moslems, and Jews are moral failures, they do not accept the God that actually exists, but cling to their own myths.
A Christian that actual obeys God is morally good, again, by definition. Whether he fails in his calling on occasion has nothing to do with the issue, scripture is quite clear on this.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

Jesus died for everyone ... so God loves everyone. But not everyone comes to Him in repentance and faith, so they miss out on the wonderful results of His love. God is sovereign and prescient so He knows who will come to Him and who will not. The Elect are simply those who actually do come to Him.

 

[Strivax]

A sincere idiot is still an idiot.
The issue has everything to do with being willing to accept reality, or not. By definition, Hindus, Moslems, and Jews are moral failures, they do not accept the God that actually exists, but cling to their own myths.
A Christian that actual obeys God is morally good, again, by definition. Whether he fails in his calling on occasion has nothing to do with the issue, scripture is quite clear on this.

I have to advise you, due to the local council housing policy, I am a Christian living among Moslems. And I find them to be perfectly good neighbours. They believe what they believe because that is what they were brought up to believe. Are you any different?

And furthermore, I would advise you that a factual wrong is categorically different to a moral wrong. If you can't see this, I advise a quick look at the dictionary, and maybe a short period of meditation. Saying 2+2=5 is a different type of error to saying disobedient children should be put to death*. In short, we can be, and many are, wrong in religious matters, while still being correct in moral matters. And vice versa.

Best wishes, Strivax.

*Deut 21: 18-21

 

[Strivax]

Jesus died for everyone ... so God loves everyone. But not everyone comes to Him in repentance and faith, so they miss out on the wonderful results of His love. God is sovereign and prescient so He knows who will come to Him and who will not. The Elect are simply those who actually do come to Him.

If God is 'prescient', and knows 'who will come to Him', and they are 'elect', what does human agency have to do with the matter? If He knows, it is fixed, and so am I. Free will is a sham. I might as well be a robot, predestined to heaven or hell irrespective of my thoughts, words and deeds. Surely, if we are to be rewarded or punished, we should be rewarded or punished according to our freely chosen merit or fault, and not according to the inevitable consequences of a predetermined fate? Or do you think Christianity is no better than a 'get into heaven for free' ticket?

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[sandpiper22]

If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

First of all, you need to define and determine what you mean by "love".
Do you love even the one who is about to slit your throat ?
If a loved one is raped, murdered, or harmed in any way, shape, or form, do you love the perpetrator/s and will you yourself spare them from harm ?
If you found your spouse in bed with your best friend, or somebody else, would you still love him/her, shake the hand of the other person, say, don't worry about it, harbor absolutely no ill feeling toward the other person ?

You see, when we really think about it, we have a very different concept of what we call love. Our love is, hardly, whether we admit it or not, unconditional.
The Bible says God is love.
Well, modern theologians say that God loves everybody, but, the Scripture says many times, and indicates in many places, that God is love TO THOSE WHOM HE LOVED from the foundation of the world, otherwise, hell wouldn't be prepared at all.

And God's love is unconditional.
He loved His people WHILE they were yet sinners (Romans 5:8).
He indicated this same love, when He commanded one of his prophets to marry a harlot, and take her back despite her infidelities.

Second of all, you say you love both the elect and the unelect.
Well, how do you know who is elect, and who is unelect.
I go to church, call everybody there my brother, my sister, and love them with the unconditional love of Christ, based on their being my fellow church members, and our common professed love for Christ.

But, am I sure their names are in the Book of Life written from the foundation of the world ?
Come to think of it, am I MYSELF sure my name is in that book at all ?
For all I know, the drug addict on the street, the harlot at the corner, the murderer in death row, the muslim whose religion I hate vehemently and who just cut off a "Christian's" head, these people's names may be the ones in the Book of Life, and mine not.
That is what is meant by "judge not, that ye be not judged".
Not to judge the eternal standing of somebody else, because their eternal standing, as well as ours, is in the hands of the King.
He knows who His people are, we don't.

But, if He has given us the witness of the Spirit (Romans 8:16), that we are indeed His children, then there are certain things we need to do for His honor and glory. Loving the brethren is among them. Living peacefully among those outside of our local church is another. Presenting our bodies a living sacrifice which is our reasonable service is still another.

I hope this helps somewhat.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

You are distorting scripture. That is clearly not what it says. You are twisting the Word of God to say what you want it to say. Whose side are you on? Seriously.


Let the objective read compare the words above with scripture, below:

1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

you provided no exegesis to substantiate your claim. you just re-typed the verses.

are you a universalist?

 

[Strivax]

you provided no exegesis to substantiate your claim.

What's an exegesis? And why does it matter?

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I've struggled with the notion that God was supposedly love and reconciling that with the notion that he also sends people he created to Hell.

One thing I have (somewhat) concluded is that whatever I think love is, is not the same as how God defines love.

It would seem that the righteous love in this context is one that demands justice. Also, I think his love would be proven by his willingness to provide what was necessary to forgive us (in giving Jesus' life for ours).

Additionally I've heard explanations that show our gift of free will as a gesture of God's love. Afterall, a relationship with God that was mandatory, without free will to reject it, would not be a genuinely loving relationship. So, in his love, he gives us the choice to reject him. But, considering God is the source of all goodness, to reject his presence is to choose a terrible existence.

So, to answer the original question. No. You do not love as much as God does. Your love is not better than God's. None of us do.

I look at this dilema a little diffrerent.

God tells us what the consequence of sin is. Spiritual death, separation from God. IMHO, God because He is Holy is held to standards because He is Holy. Sin cannot reside with Holieness. The entire premise of Holiness is no sin. All truth.

So I do not necessarily co-relate that there is a sin problem that has to be worked out with love. Or specifically God's love.

God's love was sending Christ to be the second Adam. That what Adam took from mankind and God with bringing sin into the world was then corrected in that way by Jesus. God had a plan always to bring us back to Himself, but sin had to be taken care of. Which is why God's Son had to die, suffer and be our righteousness.

To me, that God always had the plan of how He would bring mankind back to Himself not only shows that He is love, but the degree of love that He has for His creation. The sacrifice was huge. God's Word tells us that we have been bought for a price. We have been purchased by God. We change ownership, we are no longer servants to ourselves and our flesh desires toward sin, but Christ purchased us and made us a new creation. And ourselves as a new creation has a new master, Christ. We have been adopted into the family of God. We are now His Children, co-heirs with Christ to the Father.

I think it is a mistake to confuse God's love and love in general where God is concerned. God demonstrated His love for us. God put His money where His mouth is per se and paid that very high price.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

No, it does not, but that was not the question, was it? Jesus died for everyone, but only those who follow his teachings will be saved.

this is not so, as the angel said that Jesus would save His people from their sins. matthew 1:21. it doesn't say He'll try, it says he will accomplish it. it doesn't say he'll save everyone, but rather he will save those who are His people who are His chosen sheep(john 10:25-30).

do you believe that ezekiel 36:26-28 has happened to every single human being that has ever lived?

 

[ToBeLoved]

God dying for sin is not salvation people. It is getting sin out of the way so that salvation can take place. For those who choose God and want to be with Him.