Loving the Unelect

danstribe

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Sure. Some people are good, some people are bad. And there are varying degrees of both; that is what I mean by moral stature. It seems to me, all religions (and indeed, schisms, denominations, sects and cults within them) have a mix of them all. So the previous question (#14) remains. Do you really want to send (morally) bad Christians to heaven, and, say, (morally) good Jews to hell?

Incidentally, as regards relevance to the OP, I don't regard the idea of heaven being the monopoly of only Christians as entirely different in kind from the idea of heaven being the monopoly of only elect Christians.

Best wishes, Strivax.

"Not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but only those who DO the will of My Father who is in heaven. Matt 7:21. Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:24-25
There is only one religion and one God and one Mediator, that's it, no other. You can do all the good moral works you can and apart from Christ it won't last, that's why the bible says there is a righteousness that is from God that will last forever because it is Christ's righteousness living in us. Our own righteousness or good works or law keeping may only benefit us in this life unless it is coupled with the Spirit of God which is Christ in us then it carries over into the resurrection and remains forever. As far as Jews or those of other religions or even professing Christians in name only they are blinded....for now. Only the first fruits are called now to become kings and priests of God Most High and to reign ON EARTH with Christ for a thousand years to do what? To preach and teach all who were not called to be in the first resurrection, all who will be in the second resurrection as flesh and blood then the books will be opened (to teach) and then the Book of Life not for those in first resurrection that was over a thousand years before! but for those in the second resurrection whether they would accept Christ or refuse and if so they are thrown into the lake of fire which is the SECOND DEATH not eternal life in torture and agony. Even the memory of them will be gone.
 
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Thursday

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you provided no exegesis to substantiate your claim. you just re-typed the verses.

are you a universalist?

No, I am not a universalist.

You twist scripture because it contradicts your man made dogma. I don't need to do that.
 
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Strivax

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Who are his sheep? They are those who hear his voice AND follow.

This idea always makes me laugh. I am, by nature, a goat. The idea of being an obedient, biddable, subservient sheep is not one that appeals to me at all. I'd rather work things out for myself, in conversation with you all, than just lie down, roll over, and be told what to do with my life.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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Thursday

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This idea always makes me laugh. I am, by nature, a goat. The idea of being an obedient, biddable, subservient sheep is not one that appeals to me at all. I'd rather work things out for myself, in conversation with you all, than just lie down, roll over, and be told what to do with my life.

Best wishes, Strivax.

This means following God's will for your life. I don't think it applies to interpersonal debates.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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Who are his sheep? They are those who hear his voice AND follow.

those who have ezekiel 36:26-28 happen to them are the sheep. you said this happened to everyone, including hitler. how would this not make you a universalist?
 
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Thursday

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those who have ezekiel 36:26-28 happen to them are the sheep. you said this happened to everyone, including hitler. how would this not make you a universalist?

I said no such thing. You just make this stuff up as you go. I said, as does scripture, that all have been made alive in Christ. That doesn't mean that they follow. Try to keep up. You are bogged down by your man made dogma.
 
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Thursday

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actually you did,
<a href="Loving the Unelect">Loving the Unelect</a>

i asked can you do a heart transplant on yourself and you said it had been done to everybody.


Gibberish.

I quoted scripture, and I'll do it again, although it doesn't seem like your sect thinks much of scripture:

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.
 
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derGroßmütige

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By the elect I presume you mean those for whom heaven is fore-ordained. In which case, the un-elect must be those barred from heaven, also fore-ordained.

I cannot see how these concepts are compatible with the unconditional love of God, or indeed, any normal notion of justice. If the eventual deployment of my soul has nothing to do with my agency

Just as man makes a choice, so too does God. I don't get why these two camps argue as if man having a choice is to the exclusion of God choosing. It is not. Both man chooses whether or not to accept salvation, and God is involved in the destiny, events, etc. that shape that life and situation leading up to the choice.

"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." - Romans 9:18

Since God is all-knowing, He knows what events will put you on the path to making the choice to choose Him, but you still make that choice. Comprende? Kind of like the Matrix movie where that lady knows the choice he'll make, but Neo still has to make that choice.

Can you condemn a God for making extra effort to save some, and less efforts on those He chooses not to? Apparently so:

But the answer to your direct question is yes, but if and only if some god were like that. However, if there were such a god, I believe it would be our lost-cause moral duty to oppose that god with every futile effort we could make.

A moral duty to oppose your Creator? That is inherently contradictory. The very concept of morality stems from "good" vs "evil", right and wrong. Without a merciful Creator God, we are just evolutionary animals, the strong should conquer the weak, and all concepts of mercy/love are delusions weaker beings generate to trick the stronger into not taking what they want.

Without a merciful God or rewards system (Heaven) to back it up, there is literally no logical reason why the strong shouldn't just take what they want from the weak. Evolution in fact rewards such behavior.

Including, maybe, but not limited to, a general boycott of heaven.

You'd go to hell as a protest? How important do you think you are? I think you are making a very dangerous joke. And again, you'd be doing it for a delusional concept, as all concepts of morality/love would be merely misguided delusions of the weak, if they do not have authority (i.e. God, Heaven/Hell, Karma, whatever) behind them.

Man's arrogance when it comes to issues of God is mindblowing. You take such a tone with the King of all Kings? Have you ever read the Old Testament?

If when you get to Heaven, you take a defiant tone that God has to fit your standards of what you think is Just, I think you may spend all eternity down there with the rest of the protestors/rebels.

I mean, technically Lucifer agreed with you after all, that man should not have free will. He was the ultimate protestor, attempting an "Occupy Heaven" movement. Didn't work out too well for him...
 
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Widlast

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I have to advise you, due to the local council housing policy, I am a Christian living among Moslems. And I find them to be perfectly good neighbours. They believe what they believe because that is what they were brought up to believe. Are you any different?
I'm happy for you that you have nice neighbors, but that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

I was brought up as an agnostic. I came to Christ through study, something anyone can do, and something that sadly VERY VERY FEW actually do.
They "believe what they believe because that is what they were brought up to believe". I would call that intellectual laziness.
"Believing what you are told" is the root of much of the misery in this world. Why accept every bit of drivel told to you?
There is no virtue in laziness or naiveté. Thus the moral failure part of the equation.

And furthermore, I would advise you that a factual wrong is categorically different to a moral wrong. If you can't see this, I advise a quick look at the dictionary, and maybe a short period of meditation. Saying 2+2=5 is a different type of error to saying disobedient children should be put to death*. In short, we can be, and many are, wrong in religious matters, while still being correct in moral matters. And vice versa.
Wrong is wrong, regardless of how you might like to categorize it, or throw up ridiculous scenarios such as a death sentence for bad math.
Their delusions about reality will eventually lead to bad behavior on their part. Such as the violent persecution of those that don't share their point of view by Moslems, Hindus, and Jews in their home countries.
 
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Thursday

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Can you condemn a God for making extra effort to save some, and less efforts on those He chooses not to? Apparently so:

God doesn't do that, according to scripture:

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
 
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Strivax

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I don't get why these two camps argue as if man having a choice is to the exclusion of God choosing.

Thank you for all that thought provoking post. I will reply to your other points later, as time and inclination permit.

Meanwhile, it seems to me God does not have a choice. If God is perfectly Good, then God is perfectly Just. God must choose according to His perfect nature, (or He would not be perfect), and that is, without preferential favour to any particular race or creed, that those who are morally good will enjoy reward, and those who are not morally good, not enjoy that reward.

Choice is the prerogative of all us less than perfect beings, as we decide between different gradations of good and evil.

Or so it seems to me, from my worm's eye view of this whole world-type-thing.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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Gibberish.

I quoted scripture, and I'll do it again, although it doesn't seem like your sect thinks much of scripture:

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.

Click the link. Post #147 is where you said Ezekiel 36:26-28 happened to everyone.
 
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derGroßmütige

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Meanwhile, it seems to me God does not have a choice. If God is perfectly Good, then God is perfectly Just. God must choose according to His perfect nature

You dare think God is limited in ways you are not?

First of all, as we are both Christians, can I not assume we are talking about the Christian God, you know the one who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? (was that not a choice?)

And there are times where God, in discussion with the prophets, changed his actions, i.e. "Then the LORD relented and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened." - Exodus 32:1, after Moses dissuaded God.

Choice is the prerogative of all us less than perfect beings, as we decide between different gradations of good and evil.

Even angels make choices, hence Lucifer's fall from Heaven.

Did God not choose David?
Did God not choose Abraham and make a covenant with him?

Please verify we are discussing the Christian God and not some made-up version you've come up with.

God makes choices all the time. You are treating God like He is a programmable machine, not the King of all Kings. Have some respect please. God can do whatsoever He pleases, including choosing to send you to a fiery lake for all eternity (perhaps for arrogant defiance), if He so willed, it shall be done.
 
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Der Alte

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Gibberish.
I quoted scripture, and I'll do it again, although it doesn't seem like your sect thinks much of scripture:
1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
This is a common heterodox misinterpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:22. All men are physical, literal descendants of Adam therefore all men are "in Adam." However, "all men" are not inherently "in Christ!"

Matthew 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Paul the same writer of 1 Cor 15:22 also wrote.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:21
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Romans 5:18
Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.
"For all men" not "to all men."
John 3:17-18
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 
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BukiRob

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You are off on a wild tangent!! Too funny.

The truth is that there is a difference between adherence to the Jewish Law and obedience to Jesus. For example, Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, when his men were collecting wheat on the Sabbath.

Circumcision is part of the Jewish Law, it was commanded by God. Now Paul says is doesn't matter. Do you believe him?

He also said that a man will reap what he sows. Do you believe him?

Circumcision predates the Law.

You REFUSE to accept Yeshua's OWN WORDS.

I think you misunderstand Pharisee Paul.

Bottom line Yeshua plainly, OPENLY stated that he did NOT come to do away with the Torah.

The apostles INCLUDING PAUL ALL observed Sabbath and the Feast days.

Paul is told to go to the temple with men set aside to take the vow and Paul was to pay their way, take the vow himself and make the required animal sacrifices AND HE DID
 
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BukiRob

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And you know this, how?

My own position is, we are all forgiven. The issue is, what do we do with that forgiveness? Persist in sin, or repent and atone? Either way, the choice of Heaven or Hell is our own. Bad people will choose their way, and good people otherwise. But it is the morality that matters, and the beliefs only secondary, as I see the world.

Don't get me wrong, beliefs are not unimportant. But they are only important insofar as they are condusive to morality. The good will be vindicated; the evil will be shown their error. Justice demands it.

Best wishes, Strivax.
In order for your position to be true you are placed in the position of rejecting books of the NT that CLEARLY oppose your belief.
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Say goodbye to the Gospel of Matthew....
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And the book of Romans....

Say bye,bye to the book of Acts
18“But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 22“Moses said, ‘THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you. 23‘And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24“And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. 25“It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘AND IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.’26“For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.”

Salvation is NOT universal. One must REPENT
 
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John 1720

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If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

No, God knowing the elect in "eternity" before the foundation of the world does not mean God doesn’t want all men to come to repentance and be saved in "time". The Bible tells us:

” 2Peter 3:9 said:
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

It would be the height of folly to even consider it true that the creature can love mankind more than the Creator who made him does. There is much spiritual blindness in this world and most do not see God for who He truly is, nor understand His love.

"This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.]

I wasn't truly a Christian then. I came to the service that night because I was feeling sorry for myself for being away from my family for so long and our time had just been extended. Yes, I knew all about God and Jesus but truly I did not know the depth of His love yet. That day that was all going to change as I caught a true glimpse of the love and heart of God. The Chaplain showed us a movie from Billy Graham that was pretty inspirational and then he addressed our upcoming time away from our families due to our cruise extension .

"I know another man whose family is missing him too, a young Marine by the name of James Howe. You see James just received the Medal of Honor for loving his brothers. He did not receive that medal in person however. You see his family received that medal by President Nixon posthumously because James covered a hand grenade with his body in order to save the lives of his brother marines.

"No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brothers" just got my attention and registered in that hardened heart of mine. I felt ashamed of feeling sorry for myself. I had considered it a sacrifice just being away from home too long. Suddenly that seemed so puny in comparison.

Our Chaplain continued, "What if you were one of the men James saved that day? Would you walk away forever grateful and honor his memory? Would you go to his Mom and Dad with tears in your eyes remembering his sacrifice for you or would you just get on with your life never really considering what was done for you? What would his father think of you if you did not honor the sacrifice of his son? Rest assured if that were my son I would discover every detail and name of those he saved by my son sacrificing his life for theirs. We understand or at least we should understand that if we are honorable men. But do we truly understand the meaning of sacrifice?

Jesus, not only gave His life to save yours but covered all your sins, and the sins of us all, so that you may have life. When the Father looked down upon that cross it was the sin of the world that covered Him. He bore all that for you. He covered it all with His body. Jesus even cried out to His Father, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

Paul's second letter to Corinth 5:21 said:
For He (the Father) made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The Chaplain was on a roll as far as I could tell. "You might be thinking by now that yes, this is all indeed true and I believe it but I am not quite ready to make that decision to repent of my sins and turn to Him so that He would wash you clean as a true believer who trusts in Him. You may be saying, “that decision may cost me personally”. Perhaps some might reject me or mock me for my faith. It might hinder my popularity if I begin to follow Jesus and become His disciple."

I wondered how he knew this was exactly what I was thinking? I believed everything was true - I seemed to know that in my heart but I did not feel ready it was like something was pulling me back from making a decision to follow Christ. Then he said,

"Yes, all that is true. You may indeed suffer loss but remember the cost of Christ's sacrifice, just like James friends will always remember what he did for them. Today if you hear His voice it is the day of salvation that God has provided to you. Do not put off the Holy Spirit's call. God is at the doorway of your heart. You have but to knock and the door will be opened too you. Yes, you may have to surrender many of the things this world esteems but your gain will be the inexpressible riches that are only found in heart of Christ. He will provide His life for you and reside in your heart and will not forsake you even if everyone else does. Your name will be written in the book of life with the many brothers and sisters that have gone before you. No one has the ability to pluck you from His hand.

I had ignored His call many times before but I did not ignore God's call that day. I felt like I was stepping into the unknown and pretty much lost all my friends. My family even though I'd lost my mind but I can point back to my first step of faith and obedience to the Gospel's transforming power as the defining moment of my life. To know Jesus is to love Him. As I grew in Him I began to see Him more clearly and love Him more deeply. I think that is part of the sanctification process because the more we love Him the more we are willing to step out on faith and sacrifice. We are promised that one day we will see Him not as a cloudy figure, like the blind man in the miracle in the first touch of his eyes, but truly as He is and when that occurs we shall truly become just like Him.
(*) Taken from my journal notes - the day I became a follower of Christ.

[quote="1 John 3:2, Isaiah 55:7 Ezekiel18:3 and 33:11”]
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.
Eze 18:31 “Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?
Eze 33:11 “Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’
[/quote]

CONCLUSION: God greatly loves us more than we can knoe and does not desire that we perish but repent and come to know Christ to the full.

In the time we have been given God affords us opportunity and tells us to afford others the opportunity to come to the knowledge of Christ. in fact Jesus told us to go into all the world with the message of the Gospel and make Christ-like disciples by teaching them to obey all He commands. He clearly tells us this is to be for all ethnicities. Jesus also said He would be there with us until the end of the age, when the message has been completely delivered to all ethnicities. In fact He said the end would not come until this directive has been accomplished. God then desires our repentance and turning back to Him by putting our faith in His Son and is patient and loving past anything we can conceive of. He has blessed us in order that we might become a blessing to all peoples and be partakers in His harvest. We have been freely given that we might freely give it all away so that many may come to the knowledge of Christ.

Lastly, we also should not confuse eternity, the unmutable dwelling place of God, with time, which is mutable and part of creation itself. Betsie Ten Boom, after her sister Corrie could not understand such suffering during her time in the concentration camp, seemed to understand the Bible in such a way as to know the eternal and the suffering of this world, were inextricably linked somehow. But neither she or any of us really understands just how it is so. The physicists ready admit time itself began with creation. Time is a physical concept only. Hence this infers that there was no time before creation only eternity, which is incomprehensible to the finite mind - except we apprehend a sense of it by faith.

So it also follows time is temporal and not within the realm of the eternal. It took physicists up-teen centuries to catch up with Irenaeus and Augustine on that concept. Understanding the eternal is difficult just like the concepts of infinity are difficult for we also know eternity was, is and always will be, but it cannot be contextualized in the sense as we understand finite time. Hence I don’t agree there is such a thing as eternity past and eternity future as some theologians state. I believe eternity always was, always is, and forever will be. Somehow the concept of election is also there but I cannot see any practical value for it in this world of time, other than believing it is inextricably linked and I believe it is true. I am careful, however, not to formulate too many logical opinions of the relationship between time and the eternal other then I believe the Bible tells us that time is on course to eventually reflect eternity and this will be because the Father sent His Son from His eternal abode, as the Word of God, into the physical universe. Here upon the earth He made Himself subject to time and even death on a cross. But death could not hold Him for All creation was made for the Son. I even think of the Lord’s prayer in this way.

"Our Father who art in Heaven (eternal) Hallowed be Thy Name, Thy (eternal) Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on earth (in time) as it (already) is in heaven (eternity). By the grace of God time and creation is on a course to reflect the eternal. Then the purpose of time shall be complete and God’s Will will be done. But as for this day in time we are afforded the opportunity to be transformed by Christ and repeat the sounding joy, “Now is the day of salvation”.


A revealing progression of time found in 1st Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

In Christ, Pat
 
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Strivax

Pilgrim on another way
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You dare think God is limited in ways you are not?

I am simply saying that for humans, our actions vary from worst, through worse, bad, good, better and to best. And we choose among them as pleases us. If God is perfectly Good, however, His actions must always be the best. Or He would not be perfectly Good. The ultimately moral determines His action, even if He determined the ultimately moral in the first place. I do not see why this idea should be controversial.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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