Loving the Unelect

[PrettyboyAndy]

God dying for sin is not salvation people. It is getting sin out of the way so that salvation can take place. For those who choose God and want to be with Him.

Where does it say in scripture that God died and removed our sinful nature just enoughm so we can muster up our own faith to believe in Him?

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

Your good works are filthy rags in Gods sight.

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. Isaiah 64:6

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

So, just for the purposes of discussion, does a morally 'bad' Christian get saved, when a morally 'good' Jew or Moslem or Hindu or Buddhist gets condemned?

Best wishes, Strivax.

Yes thats correct

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

By the elect I presume you mean those for whom heaven is fore-ordained. In which case, the un-elect must be those barred from heaven, also fore-ordained.

I cannot see how these concepts are compatible with the unconditional love of God, or indeed, any normal notion of justice. If the eventual deployment of my soul has nothing to do with my agency, then why should I be either rewarded or punished? Mostly, it seems reasonable to think that ordinary, good, decent people get to enjoy heaven, and others don't. If you differ on this, perhaps you would like to elaborate.

But the answer to your direct question is yes, but if and only if some god were like that. However, if there were such a god, I believe it would be our lost-cause moral duty to oppose that god with every futile effort we could make.

Including, maybe, but not limited to, a general boycott of heaven.

Best wishes, Strivax.

I will start with a few simple points:

a) God is the creator
b) Because he is the creator he gave laws to govern his creation
c) He will Judge his creation based on the laws he gave.


God is just and righteous for punishing sin, because he is the law maker. I trust you will agree with me this far.

I will go on to a few more points:
a) God is Holy and must punish sin
b) We all have a sinful nature, and all deserve to be punished.
c) Had Christ not come, God would be completely righteous by casting us all into hell.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Where does it say in scripture that God died and removed our sinful nature just enoughm so we can muster up our own faith to believe in Him?

You state your beliefs, I'll state mine.

Also, do not paraphrase, use God's Word. Always a better choice since those who follow Calvin's paraphrases are often not scriptural anyway.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I will start with a few simple points:

a) God is the creator
b) Because he is the creator he gave laws to govern his creation
c) He will Judge his creation based on the laws he gave.


God is just and righteous for punishing sin, because he is the law maker. I trust you will agree with me this far.

I will go on to a few more points:
a) God is Holy and must punish sin
b) We all have a sinful nature, and all deserve to be punished.
c) Had Christ not come, God would be completely righteous by casting us all into hell.

Can't you just start a preaching thread since you do not want to discuss scriputre but preach your own theology. You can have your own place and just love on your own theology. Doesn't that sound nice.

Do you do anything but state your own point anyway? I've tried to conversate with you and you ignore anything that is not your theology. This is not learning, this is preaching. That is what the warm fuzzies are for, the person not everyone else.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Can't you just start a preaching thread since you do not want to discuss scriputre but preach your own theology. You can have your own place and just love on your own theology. Doesn't that sound nice.

Do you do anything but state your own point anyway? I've tried to conversate with you and you ignore anything that is not your theology. This is not learning, this is preaching. That is what the warm fuzzies are for, the person not everyone else.

I was simply asking where you find that in scripture.

I don't want to be confrontational.

Be mindful there are many Born Again Calvinists.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

God dying for sin is not salvation people. It is getting sin out of the way so that salvation can take place. For those who choose God and want to be with Him.

I had to re read this, And that is not true.

Christ actually paid for something on the cross.

He paid for the sins of the believers.

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 1 Cor 5:21

Do you not see substitution atonement here?

Our records were swapped, He died in our place, He took our sins, and paid for them on the cross!

 

[Strivax]

So, do you think all Christians are morally good, and all non-Christians, however sincere, are morally bad?

Yes thats correct

LOL. Well, as challenges go, at least that has the virtue of being a direct challenge!

But get this, according to this idea, it doesn't matter how many Jews I murder, or how many Moslem refugees I save, so long as I get to Church on Sundays, I'm all right for heaven.

Somehow, I think God just might have a more sophisticated point of view.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

LOL. Well, as challenges go, at least that has the virtue of being a direct challenge!

But get this, according to this idea, it doesn't matter how many Jews I murder, or how many Moslem refugees I save, so long as I get to Church on Sundays, I'm all right for heaven.

Somehow, I think God just might have a more sophisticated point of view.

Best wishes, Strivax.

You don't understand Christianity at all it appears, and I don't mean that as an insult, I mean your missing the point.

Forgiven people go to heaven, not good people.

The believer will receive the Holy Spirit of God and produce fruit, unless you are born again you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

It's not about what I do, but about what He did.

If you live like a non believer, you might not know Him, because His sheep hear His voice and follow Him

 

[Strivax]

Forgiven people go to heaven, not good people.

And you know this, how?

My own position is, we are all forgiven. The issue is, what do we do with that forgiveness? Persist in sin, or repent and atone? Either way, the choice of Heaven or Hell is our own. Bad people will choose their way, and good people otherwise. But it is the morality that matters, and the beliefs only secondary, as I see the world.

Don't get me wrong, beliefs are not unimportant. But they are only important insofar as they are condusive to morality. The good will be vindicated; the evil will be shown their error. Justice demands it.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I had to re read this, And that is not true.

Christ actually paid for something on the cross.

He paid for the sins of the believers.

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 1 Cor 5:21

Do you not see substitution atonement here?

Our records were swapped, He died in our place, He took our sins, and paid for them on the cross!

I am going to avoid the thread for a few days and come back. We can talk more than. I think I need a little break from Calvinism.

You be blessed brother.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

And you know this, how?

My own position is, we are all forgiven. The issue is, what do we do with that forgiveness? Persist in sin, or repent and atone? Either way, the choice of Heaven or Hell is our own. Bad people will choose their way, and good people otherwise. But it is the morality that matters, and the beliefs only secondary, as I see the world.

Don't get me wrong, beliefs are not unimportant. But they are only important insofar as they are condusive to morality. The good will be vindicated; the evil will be shown their error. Justice demands it.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Christianity is an exclusive religion, in which, Only By Christs shed blood are we saved. Salvation is offered only thought Jesus

All other world religions say "good people" can go to heaven.

Whereas in Christianity, only the forgiven can obtain eternal life.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

And you know this, how?

My own position is, we are all forgiven. The issue is, what do we do with that forgiveness? Persist in sin, or repent and atone? Either way, the choice of Heaven or Hell is our own. Bad people will choose their way, and good people otherwise. But it is the morality that matters, and the beliefs only secondary, as I see the world.

Don't get me wrong, beliefs are not unimportant. But they are only important insofar as they are condusive to morality. The good will be vindicated; the evil will be shown their error. Justice demands it.

Best wishes, Strivax.

In the gospel, God, in His mercy, has provided that remedy, a substitute for us—Jesus Christ—who came to pay the penalty for our sin by His sacrifice on the cross. This is the essence of the gospel which Paul preached to the Corinthians. In 1 Corinthians 15:2-4, he explains the three elements of the gospel—the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on our behalf. Our old nature died with Christ on the cross and was buried with Him. Then we were resurrected with Him to a new life (Romans 6:4-8). Paul tells us to “hold firmly” to this true gospel, the only one which saves. Believing in any other gospel is to believe in vain. In Romans 1:16-17, Paul also declares that the true gospel is the “power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes” by which he means that salvation is not achieved by man’s efforts, but by the grace of God through the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Because of the gospel, through the power of God, those who believe in Christ (Romans 10:9) are not just saved from hell. We are, in fact, given a completely new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17) with a changed heart and a new desire, will, and attitude that are manifested in good works. This is the fruit the Holy Spirit produces in us by His power. Works are never the means of salvation, but they are the proof of it (Ephesians 2:10). Those who are saved by the power of God will always show the evidence of salvation by a changed life.

- From GotQuestions.org

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

I am going to avoid the thread for a few days and come back. We can talk more than. I think I need a little break from Calvinism.

You be blessed brother.

Thanks brother, looking forward to chatting more with you soon.

If you have free time, check out these sermons from my old pastor in NY, hes great:

Doctrines of Grace Series | SermonAudio.com

 

[Guide To The Bible]

If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

No.

 

[Strivax]

All other world religions say "good people" can go to heaven.

Actually, I don't think that's true. Jews think you must be one of the chosen people. Moslems think you must accept Mohammed as the definitive prophet. Buddhists think you must achieve 'enlightenment'. Hindus, well, I am not entirely sure of the point Hindus make, other than that they revere their wise gurus.

Anyway, the point is, all religions insist on their precedence, that they are 'the one, true way'. I think we need to get beyond such petty squabblings, and appreciate moral goodness for what it is; the imitation of a morally perfect God. Whatever it's provenance.

And I do not think He will be dismissive of such an imitation, come the end of days.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Actually, I don't think that's true. Jews think you must be one of the chosen people. Moslems think you must accept Mohammed as the definitive prophet. Buddhists think you must achieve 'enlightenment'. Hindus, well, I am not entirely sure of the point Hindus make, other than that they revere their wise gurus.

Anyway, the point is, all religions insist on their precedence, that they are 'the one, true way'. I think we need to get beyond such petty squabblings, and appreciate moral goodness for what it is; the imitation of a morally perfect God. Whatever it's provenance.

And I do not think He will be dismissive of such an imitation, come the end of days.

Best wishes, Strivax.

But it isn't about being good, rather being forgiven.

 

[danstribe]

If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

Remember what happened to Job

 

[Strivax]

But it isn't about being good, rather being forgiven.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave a few moments ago. (#211).

Best wishes, Strivax.