Women Pastors part 2

Philip_B

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Just for clarification: did you mean shake my head or simply male headship?

I have observed in my time that some people use scripture as a drunk uses a lamppost ~ more for support than for illumination.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Just for clarification: did you mean shake my head or simply male headship?

I have observed in my time that some people use scripture as a drunk uses a lamppost ~ more for support than for illumination.
lol shaking my head sorry if that wasn't illuminating enough for you
 
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Paidiske

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but a woman does not have a right given to her by God to REQUIRE a man to submit to her spiritual authority.

But then, neither does a man, in any healthy understanding of pastoring or any other leadership. To require or force submission is a form of spiritual abuse.

Men who allow themselves to be taught by women sin.

So, we will see a mass exodus of men who believe this from CF, then? Since women teach here often?

So I waited for a new assistant pastor to be called which took over a year. He shows up finally, and guess what, she is till preaching at least half the time. I can't be the only one who has a problem with this but there is no way you can say something about this in a church. Who do you talk to? You're just being devisive. If we all have gifts I can say with conviction that giving sermons is not your gift. That's what I would say. You don't have any scholarly depth which might help motivate me. You are making me leave your church. Am I wrong?

Actually, I think there is an appropriate way to give feedback. What I'd hope one of my congregation would do, in this situation, is come to see me in private, discuss what they would like in sermons that they're not receiving, and see whether I can change or meet their need in some way.

Honest feedback is a precious gift, and it is rare. If someone has a problem I'd rather they tell me and give me a chance to rectify it, than leave quietly while I wonder why.

I really don't much care about Pastors but I can say as a fact that women make great Priests, Deacons and Bishops.

Thank you so much for posting this. After some of the posts in this thread I actually got tears in my eyes at this quiet vote of confidence.
 
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98cwitr

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You lie, as you know nothing of my church. You justify sin with empty words, directly in conflict with the Word. Yet you are a moderator. Painful, but I believe it, as the decay within the body of Christ is nearly complete. You will face God in complete accountability for your blasphemous teaching. You seek the easy path, the wide road of popular agreement. It is easier to follow Satan than it is to obey God.

Do I? So women are absolutely not allowed to speak in your church then?
 
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me112233

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Folks seem to be mixing two separate points of discussion. (A) Should a woman be a pastor (in a position of authority over men), and (B) is it acceptable for a woman to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to lost souls, including souls housed in male bodies?

The answer to (B) is clearly yes, it is acceptable, even expected.

The answer to (A) is "no." A man is the expected (according to the Bible) leader for a church, not a woman. Men are men, women are women; neither is better than the other, yet the two are clearly different. A person plays the role of the fool when he/she claims that there is no difference, or that a man and woman are equally suited for any position whatsoever. "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man . . . ." 1 Timothy 2:12 The leader of a church (commonly the pastor) is in a position of authority over men. This is wrong according to the Bible. It is also wrong for a woman to be explaining the nuances of the Bible to a man (teaching); not because I say so, but because the Bible itself says so.

Now, there is a difference between proclaiming and teaching. Proclaiming is walking up to a man and saying "2+2 = 4." Teaching involves a discussion of the philosophy of 2 + 2, how it is the same as 1+1+1+1, how it relates to 3+3 and 20+20, and how the concept of 2+2 = 4 can/should be applied in your life.

If men are taught the ways of life by a woman, the men will become effeminate and soft.
 
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98cwitr

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Folks seem to be mixing two separate points of discussion. (A) Should a woman be a pastor (in a position of authority over men), and (B) is it acceptable for a woman to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to lost souls, including souls housed in male bodies?

The answer to (B) is clearly yes, it is acceptable, even expected.

The answer to (A) is "no." A man is the expected (according to the Bible) leader for a church, not a woman. Men are men, women are women; neither is better than the other, yet the two are clearly different. A person plays the role of the fool when he/she claims that there is no difference, or that a man and woman are equally suited for any position whatsoever. "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man . . . ." 1 Timothy 2:12 The leader of a church (commonly the pastor) is in a position of authority over men. This is wrong according to the Bible. It is also wrong for a woman to be explaining the nuances of the Bible to a man (teaching); not because I say so, but because the Bible itself says so.

Now, there is a difference between proclaiming and teaching. Proclaiming is walking up to a man and saying "2+2 = 4." Teaching involves a discussion of the philosophy of 2 + 2, how it is the same as 1+1+1+1, how it relates to 3+3 and 20+20, and how the concept of 2+2 = 4 can/should be applied in your life.

If men are taught the ways of life by a woman, the men will become effeminate and soft.

Doesn't the "must be silent" part of the scripture render B as "no" as well?
 
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JackRT

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If men are taught the ways of life by a woman, the men will become effeminate and soft.

So we proceed like the Spartans and remove male children at an early age to live in a communal existence with men in a barracks? It made for wonderful soldiers but Sparta never produced philosophers or poets or scientists.
 
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geiroffenberg

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A man is the expected (according to the Bible) leader for a church, not a woman.

Pls give a reference to where in the bible it says that a man must lead a church, but never a woman.


"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man . . . ." 1 Timothy 2:12

Thats right, but tis equally unlawful for a MAN to call himself a teacher in order to usurp authority over men!

This is the problem, that christians actually believes that it is right for a person to sit in the seat as the head of the church when this is only perserved for God.


It is also wrong for a woman to be explaining the nuances of the Bible to a man (teaching); not because I say so, but because the Bible itself says so.

Then why does it say that the woman, Priscilla, who Paul calls a co-worker, literally explained the details of the gospel to Apollos?

If men are taught the ways of life by a woman, the men will become effeminate and soft.

you can not literally believe this, which is why i suspect you to be trolling and trying to trigger peoples reactions. How would a mothers role trough history be if woman was not allowed to raise their male children, jeez :D
 
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patdee

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If women Pastors are only allowed to teach other women and children should they ask grown men to leave ? Why do men follow women Pastors anyway? Should the men be blamed for allowing a woman to teach them scripture and usurp male authority as church leaders? If this thread doesn't go in this forum could the mods please move it?

Any man who listens to and/or condones a so-called "female pastor", etc, is NOT in step with Jesus' desires, since He created the Heavens and the Earth and everything in it.

Notice:

Jacob had a daughter, Dinah. WHY were her descendants not of a "tribe" named after her? Yet her 12 brothers descendants were all named after one of those 12. WHY is there not a single, Jesus appointed, female "leader" in the entire bible? WHY did Jesus not pick a single female as one of His 12 disciples? Why did not Jesus replace Judas with a female; when He raised up Saul of Tarsus and changed his name to Paul, to keep the number 12? Who then became THE greatest "mortal" preacher in history. Not to mention, the most quoted author of any thing written; in any genre' of writing! Oh indeed yes. Again WHY did Jesus (God Almighty) not choose a single female to be His messenger?

Why did Paul say, "women are not to speak in church"? Why did Paul say, "A woman's Lord is her husband; as Jesus is the Lord over the husband"? Why did Jesus tell Eve, ".............and thy desire shall be to thy husband; and he shall rule over thee"?

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience (Jesus and his messengers) as also saith the law.
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the saviour of the body.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ (Messiah) is God.
1 Corinthians 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee".

If you believe the above commandments are of Jesus (God almighty manifest IN the flesh-1 Timothy 3:16); then there is NO way Jesus would EVER condone women being pastors and/or leaders of His Gospel. NO way. The reason is just; because a women is guided by whim, emotion and sorrow; whereas men are guided* by logic and sound rationale; particularly, IF they become an appointed spokesman/messenger for Jesus.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: "God was manifest in the flesh", justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Thus there is NO place for a female leader in Jesus' kingdom; whether any one believes it or not.

In any case, May Jesus richly bless you and yours always.

* NOT all men follow this. This due to their relying on ego and/or cowardice, rather than Jesus.
 
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Deborah is a different case.

No. If 1 Timothy 2:12 means that it is God's will that women should not teach men or be in authority over them, then they would not be - ever.
You might not be saying this, but it is inconsistent to say "Scripture says that a woman mustn't have authority over a man - but Deborah was different." She wasn't; she was a prophetess who gave the word of God to the nation, she was judge over all the nation and she was put there by God.
Esther was a queen and influenced the king so that he repelled an edict and saved the Jewish nation from destruction. Yes, you could argue that the king was a pagan who didn't honour God, but the point still applies. The Jews still hold the feast of Purim each year to celebrate how their nation was saved by God - through a woman.

She was not sent to every nation to preach the gospel.

Jesus has told us ALL to go the nations and preach the Gospel. Many countries owe much to the female missionaries who have done just that. Gladys Aylward founded a church in China, Mother Teresa set up the Sisters of charity in India, and hundreds of ordinary Christian women have been/gone or are overseas preaching the Good News.

Are you saying that all or this is wrong/sinful and that we should leave evangelism only to the men? In that case, I don't think the Lord Jesus will return for many centuries yet.

I have no problem if God wants to reach something if he uses Deborah.

That's just it; God can use, and call, anyone he chooses to do his will.
He created us, sent Jesus to die for us, sent his Spirit to live in us and calls us to serve him - even though he doesn't need anything from any of us.
It is his Gospel, his church, his Spirit who gives us gifts - for his glory, not our own - and his kingdom. Everything we have, are and do is from him. And if he graciously allows us the privilege of working with and for him; he has the right to do that. We are only servants, vessels and channels - it is he who convicts, draws people to himself, saves, forgives, heals and intercedes for them. He did this through a donkey in Balaam's time and used a fish and a worm to teach Jonah - if he also wants to use a woman, who he created in his own image, he has every right to do so.

But it doesn't change, that God didn't call the women to teach in the church

With respect, you have not spoken to all the women who are called by God to serve in the church, so you don't know.
Telling such a Christian woman - your sister in Christ - that she is not called to serve in this way, is a judgement.

Mary Magdalene just gave a testimony of what she saw. She didn't teach anyone about anything.

Well she did; she told the men that Jesus was alive, the tomb was empty and passed on a message, that the Lord would meet the Lord in Galilee. O.k, not a formal lesson; but she told them something they didn't know. Her, a woman, telling men - and she was specifically chosen by Jesus for the job.
What is a sermon if not passing on the word of God and testifying to what you know of him and what he has done in your life? O.k so some involve teaching as well, but, practically speaking, most of the info and facts given in sermons come from commentaries that are written by men.

Of course women have their role in evangelism.

Well good - a lot of evangelism involves teaching and preaching.

Exactly: God spoke through her and he placed her in this position to judge over Yisrael. I don't have a problem with this.

So you presumably don't have a problem with 1 Timothy 2:12?
You can't agree with part of a verse but not another part. Either women are not to have any authority over men - though I don't see how giving a sermon comes into that category - or they can. Either a woman cannot lead, judge or teach men, ever; or they may if God so chooses.
You've just said that God speaks through people and it is God who appoints - so what's the problem?
 
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Philip_B

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Mary Magdalene just gave a testimony of what she saw.
Matthew 28:5-7
But the angel said to the women, ‘Do not be afraid; I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for he has been raised, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples, “He has been raised from the dead, and indeed he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him.”​

Mark 16:5-7
As they (the women) entered the tomb, they saw a young man, dressed in a white robe, sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed. But he said to them, ‘Do not be alarmed; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Look, there is the place they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him, just as he told you.’

Luke 24:5-10
The women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, ‘Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, that the Son of Man must be handed over to sinners, and be crucified, and on the third day rise again.’ Then they remembered his words, and returning from the tomb, they told all this to the eleven and to all the rest. Now it was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them who told this to the apostles.

John 4:39-42
Many Samaritans from that city believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, ‘He told me everything I have ever done.’ So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them; and he stayed there for two days. And many more believed because of his word.They said to the woman, ‘It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is truly the Saviour of the world.’

John 20:11-18
But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb; and she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had been lying, one at the head and the other at the feet.They said to her, ‘Woman, why are you weeping?’ She said to them, ‘They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.’When she had said this, she turned round and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not know that it was Jesus. Jesus said to her, ‘Woman, why are you weeping? For whom are you looking?’ Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, ‘Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.’ Jesus said to her, ‘Mary!’ She turned and said to him in Hebrew, ‘Rabbouni!’ (which means Teacher). Jesus said to her, ‘Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” ’ Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, ‘I have seen the Lord’; and she told them that he had said these things to her.​

Luke 1:46-55
And Mary said,
‘My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour,
for he has looked with favour on the lowliness of his servant.
Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
for the Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
His mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with his arm;
he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts.
He has brought down the powerful from their thrones,
and lifted up the lowly;
he has filled the hungry with good things,
and sent the rich away empty.
He has helped his servant Israel,
in remembrance of his mercy,
according to the promise he made to our ancestors,
to Abraham and to his descendants for ever.’​

It seems to me that it is attested in some form by the writers of the synoptic Gospels and indeed also the Fourth Gospel that women have been asked/commissioned/sent to tell men something. The repeated response always seems to have been that men were unwilling to learn from women and needed to find some veracity of what the women had said for themselves. Why is this so I hear you ask in your relentless search for truth. Might it have something to do with the cultural conditioning of the society in which this happened, does perhaps God have a radical edge in there and some interest in the unity of the species whom he created male and female he created them in his image and after his likeness.

For me, and the reason I have included the Song of Mary in the texts here is because here, I believe Mary is a lady teaching through the centuries and men and women in countless generations have listened to this teaching or not listened to this teaching, yet this great teaching from a women as close as any to the central pivotal point of our redemption, sings clearly today as much as at any time in history. Will we listen?

Luke 22:24-27
A dispute also arose among them as to which one of them was to be regarded as the greatest. But he said to them, ‘The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those in authority over them are called benefactors. But not so with you; rather the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like one who serves. For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.​

A considerable amount of angst in this thread has been addressing the notion of headship/authority, and for me I must say that it is an area which to me seems somewhat foreign to the teaching of Jesus. I don't think ministry is about authority. When I look at Pope Francis as he goes about his task, I don't see him asserting authority. He meets with Justin Welby and says 'our division is a scandal and a shame'. I look at the annals of Christian History, and again and again it is where we assert authority (engage in power struggles) that we find division and fracturing of the Body of Christ.

To those who find this hard, be assured that I am not having a go at you, many of my very good friends are opposed to the ordination of women, and many of my very good friends are in favour, and indeed some are ordained women. We do no service to the Gospel in decrying one another, and I trust those who believe I am devoid of scripture will recognise that I have made some effort, though I am certainly not asking for a pass from you. In the end the Gospel is about people, not law, and Jesus most certainly taught us about that.

Luke 1:68-79
‘Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
for he has looked favourably on his people and redeemed them.
He has raised up a mighty saviour for us
in the house of his servant David,
as he spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old,
that we would be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us.
Thus he has shown the mercy promised to our ancestors,
and has remembered his holy covenant,
the oath that he swore to our ancestor Abraham,
to grant us that we, being rescued from the hands of our enemies,
might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness
before him all our days.
And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High;
for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways,
to give knowledge of salvation to his people
by the forgiveness of their sins.
By the tender mercy of our God,
the dawn from on high will break upon us,
to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the way of peace.’​
 
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Strong in Him

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Any man who listens to and/or condones a so-called "female pastor", etc, is NOT in step with Jesus' desires, since He created the Heavens and the Earth and everything in it.

He did.
He also taught women, allowed them to learn, (Mary sat at his feet), commended them for their faith, (the Syro-Phonecian woman) and acts of love, (the woman who anointed him), forgave them - and allowed himself to be financially supported by them.
He revealed to the woman at the well that he was the Messiah - and she went back to her village and told them all about him. He chose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection - and she went into a roomful of men, and told them the Good News.

I may answer the rest of your post tomorrow.
 
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JackRT

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Every biblical argument that women must not be in authority over men that I have heard in this thread only confirms my conviction that Paul and whoever wrote the Pastoral Epistles was reflecting first and second century Mediterranean cultural values. Women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men. Lets get past the patriarchy and the misogyny and go forward together.
 
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Any man who listens to and/or condones a so-called "female pastor", etc, is NOT in step with Jesus' desires, since He created the Heavens and the Earth and everything in it.

Notice:

Jacob had a daughter, Dinah. WHY were her descendants not of a "tribe" named after her? Yet her 12 brothers descendants were all named after one of those 12. WHY is there not a single, Jesus appointed, female "leader" in the entire bible? WHY did Jesus not pick a single female as one of His 12 disciples? Why did not Jesus replace Judas with a female; when He raised up Saul of Tarsus and changed his name to Paul, to keep the number 12? Who then became THE greatest "mortal" preacher in history. Not to mention, the most quoted author of any thing written; in any genre' of writing! Oh indeed yes. Again WHY did Jesus (God Almighty) not choose a single female to be His messenger?

Why did Paul say, "women are not to speak in church"? Why did Paul say, "A woman's Lord is her husband; as Jesus is the Lord over the husband"? Why did Jesus tell Eve, ".............and thy desire shall be to thy husband; and he shall rule over thee"?

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience (Jesus and his messengers) as also saith the law.
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the saviour of the body.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ (Messiah) is God.
1 Corinthians 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee".

If you believe the above commandments are of Jesus (God almighty manifest IN the flesh-1 Timothy 3:16); then there is NO way Jesus would EVER condone women being pastors and/or leaders of His Gospel. NO way. The reason is just; because a women is guided by whim, emotion and sorrow; whereas men are guided* by logic and sound rationale; particularly, IF they become an appointed spokesman/messenger for Jesus.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: "God was manifest in the flesh", justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Thus there is NO place for a female leader in Jesus' kingdom; whether any one believes it or not.

In any case, May Jesus richly bless you and yours always.

* NOT all men follow this. This due to their relying on ego and/or cowardice, rather than Jesus.

I disagree with so much of what you have said here, but as I have said before you are entitled to your own interpretation of scripture just as I am entitled to my interpretation.

Unlike you, I am not going to throw insults. As I said, you are entitled to your own interpretation.

I would point out that while Paul was called to be an Apostle, he was not called to be one if the 12--that was Matthias. Perhaps you need to read your Bible more closely.
 
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Please understand this and never forget it: God is the infinite and unchanging, and is also the source of all things created - i.e. the indefinite and definite, whether they change a little or a lot. Orthodox Christian knowledge is based on the science of the abovementioned, which means, amongst other things, that doctrine, ritual and tradition, in order to honour the infinite, unchanging and stable divine, must unflinchingly remain patriarchal, lest its efficacy be compromised. All talk, then, of women priests or pastors is to be rejected, at once. Failing to do so admits the modern tendency toward opinion, fashion, rapid change and instability, and represents one more nail in the coffin that the anti-christian movement is trying to erect. Let nobody be deceived by the modern attitude that any of us is smart enough to really think for ourselves. We are, in truth, not so bright, and quite dependent on the teaching of God, Jesus and the traditional church to guide us into understanding. Thus, if the church, from the start, made only men the priests, then let it stand that way unmolested, without your or anyone else's misunderstandings getting in the way. If you are too proud to let those who really know tell you how it is, then this is a problem for everyone.
 
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No, the issue is man's interpretation and application of something that Paul wrote.

If you take 1 Timothy 2:12 to be God's word and command, then you have to consider why God would say that...

I don't have time to go through long posts like this, but I did find an error right off the bat. I disagree we need to consider why. We only need to consider what God said, not every reason behind it. God's ways are a mystery at times, but He said the position of pastor elder was for men. I can speculate why, but not as a means to disobey or come up with an excuse not to obey.

Women can do virtually anything in the world. They can serve they can lead, they're just not supposed to be leading Churches. That was something God ordained for men to do. I personally wouldn't have a problem with women leading Churches, but for God's comments in this area. Same with priestly duties in Israel. It think women could have done it just as well as men, but that wasn't God's plan. We need to trust God on this one, and not get caught up in emotional political correctness.
 
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You mean that God spoke through Deborah, Judges 4-5, and Huldah, 2 Kings 20, when he shouldn't have?
Maybe no one told him....

No, but that's different, that has to do with governmental leadership. We as Christians should have no problem with that, Paul's words are in the context of religious worship. Think of the priests of ancient Israel. There were not women priests handling priestly functions. It was all men, and specifically ordained to be all men. But women at times we in governmental leadership roles as Deborah was. God just doesn't want them leading Churches. We need to respect and obey His will on this.
 
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One of the most dynamic pastors I ever saw was our former pastor, a woman. The fact is that men and women can both possess voices that are hard to hear, and some preach on topics that plainly don't belong in church. That isn't a matter of sex.

Which speaks to the abilities of women. They make good leaders at times, and I'm sure some women are more talented then some male pastors.

Not the issue. God did not want women to use their leadership skills in the context of the Church. He wants men to step up and do that. There are many areas this woman could be an effective leader and bring glory to God. Instead, she chooses to use it in the one area God restricted her. I can't call this anything else but rebellion.
 
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Which speaks to the abilities of women. They make good leaders at times, and I'm sure some women are more talented then some male pastors.

Not the issue. God did not want women to use their leadership skills in the context of the Church. He wants men to step up and do that. There are many areas this woman could be an effective leader and bring glory to God. Instead, she chooses to use it in the one area God restricted her. I can't call this anything else but rebellion.
And, as I keep saying in this thread, you are entitled to your interpretation of scripture just as I am entitled to my interpretation. I just recommend that you not join a denomination that ordains women.
 
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