To those who don't believe in eternal security...

[Bible2+]

razzelflabben said in post 324:

. . . and as per Heb. 6 and no one offering biblical exegesis to suggest these are not true believers . . .

Good point.

For Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that even saved people, who have repented and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other scriptures show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, saved people can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and they instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he completely renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel in order to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense during the future tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8) and worshipping the Antichrist and his image and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or the right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if they had become initially saved before, will end up suffering punishment in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of saved people ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those saved people who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the future worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

 

[bcbsr]

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This means that nothing outside of saved people's own free-willed actions can separate them from God's love. For Romans 8:38-39 is not contradicting that saved people themselves can wrongly employ their free will to the ultimate loss of their salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

Regarding the part of Romans 8:38-39 which says "neither death, nor life", it means that neither saved people's continued living in itself, nor their dying in itself, can separate them from God's love, in the sense of them losing their salvation just for continuing to live, or just for dying. For unless saved people wrongly employ their free will to commit suicide, whether they continue to live or die is outside of their control.

*******



Note that a personal decision to commit suicide can change one's marital status. For the dead are no longer married.

*******



1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This, like 1 John 3:6, 1 John 5:18, and 3 John 1:11b, means that the initial salvation of people will be accompanied by them repenting from their sins and not continuing in them, at least for a while. What these verses do not mean is that initially saved people lose their free will and become robots, unable to ever choose, sometime subsequent to their initial salvation and repentance, to commit a sin without ever repenting from it. For other verses show that it is possible for initially saved people to do that, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).



1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Note that this does not require that apostate believers were never real believers, but can mean that apostate believers were never of the overcomers to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). Real believers who have their names written in the book of life can have their names blotted out if they fail to overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). People can really believe only for awhile, before at some point wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

1 John 2:18-19 can refer to Christians who eventually became Gnostic-type Christians (cf. 2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3), and so left the church because of its continued (and correct) insistence that Christ is in the flesh (Luke 24:39).

*******



Initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Thanks for providing such a clear example of Neo-Circumcision theology, rejecting what John said that, "if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us", rejecting what Paul said that "nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." and rejecting the gospel that justification is by faith apart from works and instead preaching a salvation by works gospel.

As for the illustration of the principle of marriage, your claim that suicide ends the marriage being an illustration of your soteriology would seem to indicate that under your gospel if at any point in time one falls short of perfect behavior and sins, that's it. Game over. No possibility of salvation for that person who has committed a sin, given your suicide illustration. And indeed that is the curse of the law, the curse the Neo-Circumcision live under. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."" Gal 3:10,11

But what's "Neo" about the Neo-Circumcision is they tinker with the law and cherry pick to create a law they think they can live. I just responded to such a person who claims to put his trust in loving God and neighbor to be saved. So what is the particular law that you've concocted whereby if one falls short they lose their salvation permanently in suicide fashion? And do you live up to it. Or do you fall short.

Do you understand different gospel I'm advocating. That simply by trusting in Jesus to save one is saved apart from the issue of one's works? If so, do you reject with conviction, intentionally in a permanent fashion that gospel? For it seems that you do, in which case you would be classified an apostate.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

For it seems that you do, in which case you would be classified an apostate.

Maybe someplace else,
but not on this site.

 

[razzelflabben]

You failed to observed the words "rich welcome". It's contrasting a rich welcome versus a poor one. It is not speaking of salvation being contingent upon one's performance, which, yes, you are alluding to.

As for the Heb 6 apparently you fail to comprehend the explanation given to you. No, the comments both Kenneth Wuest and I made were not in reference to an atheist. We're referring to an apostate. Sorry, I assumed you had some basic reading comprehension skills. Any more strawmen in your pocket?

actually I just cut and pasted and highlighted the portion so accusing me of leaving out certain words is a false accusation and inflammatory...none the less...now, just to cut all confusion, here is the cut and paste from the HCSB...For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you.

Notice there is nothing about a "rich welcome" verses a "poor welcome" as you proclaim...but let's look at the KJV just to be sure...1 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Again, notice that it does not show any clues that it is referring to a warm welcome verses a not warm welcome or rich if you prefer. Rather both say that you will be granted entrance.

But here is the real problem...I object to the inflammatory nature of your post simply because you don't like the question I asked...because you see, here you falsely accuse me as you do in the second paragraph as well...let me show you....

Wow, I said nothing about atheist...I said neither of you nor Kenneth Wuest addressed the question being asked about Heb. 6 and since your inflammatory post which is nothing but false accusations of me and my character still refuses to address the questions asked of your position, I guess we are done with once again your side showing a refusal to address the scriptures that seem to contradict your conclusions. All you had to do was say, "sorry I refuse to answer the questions" you didn't have to post false accusations as well.

 

[razzelflabben]

Good point.

For Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that even saved people, who have repented and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other scriptures show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, saved people can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and they instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he completely renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel in order to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense during the future tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8) and worshipping the Antichrist and his image and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or the right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if they had become initially saved before, will end up suffering punishment in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of saved people ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those saved people who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the future worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

exactly what I showed the passage saying and the other side refuses to do...one thing I have learned from my 50 years of Loving god with a fierce passion is that there is no sound argument against the truth of God. In fact, instead of offering sound biblical argument those who believe something false will do everything in their power to avoid the truth rather than stand up and be counted when challenged.

thanks for offering.

 

[Wordkeeper]

A basic mistake many believers make is to think that the eternal kingdom is entered into in the after life. Jesus said that if he drove out demons by the finger of God, it meant the kingdom of God had arrived where he and his listeners were standing, the proof that it was God who had sent him had been given.


Exodus 4
1Then Moses said, “What if they will not believe me or listen to what I say? For they may say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’”


So the kingdom of God is the ability to prove God was the source of the message.


Why would eternal life be good news to the Jews? Because God had promised Abraham that the world would be blessed through his Seed. How? A prophet like Moses would come and deliver the world, and those who were IN him would share in his work, His life, His death and His resurrection, resulting in the world being led out of slavery to sin. Thus the Jews would be the blessing to the world promised by God, if they were IN Christ. Of course, they rejected Him, leading to those who had faith, not law, of whom Abraham was the prototype, becoming the blessing to the world. Which was what God had planned anyway.


Quote
The Lord Jesus said, “I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly” (John 10:10). Unfortunately, many believers mistake this verse to mean that when we receive the Lord Jesus as our Savior, we receive an enhanced or enriched human life so things on earth will be easier for us and “life” (as generally understood by people) will be better. This is not what the Lord Jesus meant, and this is not what the apostle Paul, a pattern to all believers, experienced (Phil. 3:17; 2 Thes. 3:9). In John 10:10, the Lord spoke of the divine, uncreated, divine life of God. For us to have this life, the Lord Jesus, in whom this divine life was embodied (1:4), fell into the ground and died (12:24), and in resurrection He became the life-giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45b). Now this eternal life can be imparted into millions of people through regeneration (John 1:12-13; 3:1-6), and thus the eternal life of God can be multiplied in humanity (12:24). In this way, God can have many sons, not adopted sons but ones actually and literally born of His very divine life with His divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). These sons express Him not by a kind of imitation but through His life living and growing in them (Gal. 2:20; Phil 1:19-21).

This is the eternal life we receive when we believe in Jesus and that wants to grow in us (1 Cor. 3:6-9; Col 2:19). May we treasure this divine life within us and allow this life to grow and mature in us.


http://www.lsmradio.com/hearing-of-faith/whatis/what-is-eternal-life.html

So don't make the mistake of thinking entering the eternal kingdom is something we do in the after life. Jesus said those who believed, who obeyed, had already passed into eternal life.

 

[razzelflabben]

A basic mistake many believers make is to think that the eternal kingdom is entered into in the after life. Jesus said that if he drove out demons by the finger of God, it meant the kingdom of God had arrived where he and his listeners were standing, the proof that it was God who had sent him had been given.


Exodus 4
1Then Moses said, “What if they will not believe me or listen to what I say? For they may say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’”


So the kingdom of God is the ability to prove God was the source of the message.


Why would eternal life be good news to the Jews? Because God had promised Abraham that the world would be blessed through his Seed. How? A prophet like Moses would come and deliver the world, and those who were IN him would share in his work, His life, His death and His resurrection, resulting in the world being led out of slavery to sin. Thus the Jews would be the blessing to the world promised by God, if they were IN Christ. Of course, they rejected Him, leading to those who had faith, not law, of whom Abraham was the prototype, becoming the blessing to the world. Which was what God had planned anyway.


Quote
The Lord Jesus said, “I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly” (John 10:10). Unfortunately, many believers mistake this verse to mean that when we receive the Lord Jesus as our Savior, we receive an enhanced or enriched human life so things on earth will be easier for us and “life” (as generally understood by people) will be better. This is not what the Lord Jesus meant, and this is not what the apostle Paul, a pattern to all believers, experienced (Phil. 3:17; 2 Thes. 3:9). In John 10:10, the Lord spoke of the divine, uncreated, divine life of God. For us to have this life, the Lord Jesus, in whom this divine life was embodied (1:4), fell into the ground and died (12:24), and in resurrection He became the life-giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45b). Now this eternal life can be imparted into millions of people through regeneration (John 1:12-13; 3:1-6), and thus the eternal life of God can be multiplied in humanity (12:24). In this way, God can have many sons, not adopted sons but ones actually and literally born of His very divine life with His divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). These sons express Him not by a kind of imitation but through His life living and growing in them (Gal. 2:20; Phil 1:19-21).

This is the eternal life we receive when we believe in Jesus and that wants to grow in us (1 Cor. 3:6-9; Col 2:19). May we treasure this divine life within us and allow this life to grow and mature in us.


http://www.lsmradio.com/hearing-of-faith/whatis/what-is-eternal-life.html

So don't make the mistake of thinking entering the eternal kingdom is something we do in the after life. Jesus said those who believed, who obeyed, had already passed into eternal life.

go on...explain how in the case of OSAS theology that the unbeliever enters the eternal kingdom no matter how you interpret the kingdom since the rest would be off topic to the discussion.

 

[bcbsr]

actually I just cut and pasted and highlighted the portion so accusing me of leaving out certain words is a false accusation and inflammatory...none the less...now, just to cut all confusion, here is the cut and paste from the HCSB...For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you.

Notice there is nothing about a "rich welcome" verses a "poor welcome" as you proclaim...but let's look at the KJV just to be sure...1 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Again, notice that it does not show any clues that it is referring to a warm welcome verses a not warm welcome or rich if you prefer. Rather both say that you will be granted entrance.

But here is the real problem...I object to the inflammatory nature of your post simply because you don't like the question I asked...because you see, here you falsely accuse me as you do in the second paragraph as well...let me show you....

Wow, I said nothing about atheist...I said neither of you nor Kenneth Wuest addressed the question being asked about Heb. 6 and since your inflammatory post which is nothing but false accusations of me and my character still refuses to address the questions asked of your position, I guess we are done with once again your side showing a refusal to address the scriptures that seem to contradict your conclusions. All you had to do was say, "sorry I refuse to answer the questions" you didn't have to post false accusations as well.

In view of your claim of "slander", let me enlighten you.

You claim you said nothing about "atheist". Yet here is what you ACTUALLY said, "We have in our church a man that was an atheist".

So that accusation is false.

Secondly as the NIV states of 2Peter 2:11 "you will receive a RICH welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." As I pointed out you failed to consider the relevance of the word "RICH". "Rich" as opposed to what? You simply ignore the word "rich" and in fact leave it out of your previous comment as you said, "we will be given entrance into the eternal notice the word eternal NOT millennial but eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ." Yes, you left out the word "rich". Seems leaving words out of the Bible can change it's meaning. Who would have thought!

So again your accusation is false. It's clear from your rhetoric that you have no intention of trying to understand what the Bible means, the implications of what it says, nor trying to understand what I mean. And it seems that it is you yourself are the one throwing around inflammatory accusations.

Furthermore having provided you with an explanation of the Heb 6 passage you simply ignore it and claim that no one has provided you with an explanation.

 

[Wordkeeper]

go on...explain how in the case of OSAS theology that the unbeliever enters the eternal kingdom no matter how you interpret the kingdom since the rest would be off topic to the discussion.

Peter claimed the apostles had surrendered everything for the kingdom of God.

OSAS is wrong since Judas lost his salvation.

 

[Bible2+]

bcbsr said in post 362:

Thanks for providing such a clear example of Neo-Circumcision theology . . .

Do you mean physical circumcision? If so, note that whether or not someone is physically circumcised does not matter to Christians (Colossians 3:11, Galatians 6:15, Galatians 5:6). Instead, the only circumcision that matters is the spiritual circumcision (Philippians 3:3) of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Christ (Colossians 2:11-13).

If Christians get physically circumcised thinking that they have to (Acts 15:1,5) because it was commanded to Abraham (Genesis 17:10) and was part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Leviticus 12:3), then Christ will profit them nothing (Galatians 5:2). They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) and placed themselves under the curse of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:10, Deuteronomy 27:26).

Under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, physical circumcision was required for a male, whether Jew or Gentile, whether infant or adult, to become part of Israel (Exodus 12:48). But under the New Covenant, physical circumcision is not required for a Jew or Gentile to become part of Israel. All that is required is faith in Jesus (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). This is one of the ways that the New Covenant is not according to the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 31:32). The letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6).

Also, unlike the abolished physical circumcision of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the spiritual circumcision of the New Covenant of Jesus (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29) makes no distinction between males and females (Galatians 3:28-29).

Also, under the New Covenant, a non-Christian, genetic Jew, even though he may be physically circumcised, is spiritually uncircumcised (Acts 7:51), and so spiritually is not a Jew (Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). He has been broken off in spirit from the good olive tree of Israel, the genetic Jews' own tree (Romans 11:20,24).

bcbsr said in post 362:

Thanks for providing such a clear example of Neo-Circumcision theology . . .

Do you mean the spiritual circumcision (Philippians 3:3) of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Christ (Colossians 2:11-13)? If so, note that in order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). If people believe with all their heart that Jesus Christ is the human/divine Son of God (Acts 8:37), they can get baptized anywhere there is water (Acts 8:36) into which they can be fully-immersed (buried) (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12). They need to make sure to be baptized in the name of God the Father; and of the Son, Jesus Christ; and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38). Believers can get water-immersion baptized at, for example, a Baptist-type congregation.

Besides getting water baptized, believers can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment that they become believers. That is why Paul the apostle asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

Believers usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism will not result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many believers have not yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they have not yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many believers have not yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it is no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

bcbsr said in post 362:

. . . rejecting the gospel that justification is by faith apart from works . . .

Some people feel that water baptism cannot be required for salvation, because baptism is a work, and salvation is not based on works, but on faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). But baptism is a kind of circumcision (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29). Just as Abraham, who is a model for Christians, was initially saved by faith alone, prior to his circumcision (Romans 4), so Christians are initially saved by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:2-5), prior to their baptism (Acts 8:36-38, John 20:31). But just as Abraham was ultimately saved by his works (James 2:21-24), so Christians will be ultimately saved by their works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b), which must include getting water-immersion (burial) baptized (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

bcbsr said in post 362:

No possibility of salvation for that person who has committed a sin, given your suicide illustration.

The suicide analogy would not apply to simply committing a sin. For it is only if believers continue in a sin without repentance, until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' return (Luke 12:45-46), that they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

 

[razzelflabben]

In view of your claim of "slander", let me enlighten you.

You claim you said nothing about "atheist". Yet here is what you ACTUALLY said, "We have in our church a man that was an atheist".

wow...the claim I said about not talking about atheists referred to your accusation of me talking about atheist views not a story about an atheist in our church...all in context dear....but I guess this proves my point that you would rather try to flame me than communicate.
I was on an evolution site one time. I told them that I had no issue or problem with the so called missing link in the fossil records. To which I was falsely accused of talking about the fossil record. Upon review of the claim and the post in question I was talking about something completely different than the fossil record but because I said, "I don't understand what I'm missing, please link your claims to what I am saying." I was accused of talking about the missing link of the fossil record.

So again, in context of our discussion, I said nothing about the atheist (view) of eternal security or the passage in question...geesh...

So that accusation is false.

your accusation is false as per context of our discussion...but that just tells me that you have no interest in keeping anything including scripture in context which is a huge problem for me because I know first hand how important context is....

Secondly as the NIV states of 2Peter 2:11 "you will receive a RICH welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." As I pointed out you failed to consider the relevance of the word "RICH". "Rich" as opposed to what? You simply ignore the word "rich" and in fact leave it out of your previous comment as you said, "we will be given entrance into the eternal notice the word eternal NOT millennial but eternal kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ." Yes, you left out the word "rich". Seems leaving words out of the Bible can change it's meaning. Who would have thought!

now, I remember talking about this previously, but here you go again...cut and pasted from the strongs online concordance....

For G1063 so G3779 an entrance G1529 shall be ministered G2023 unto you G5213 abundantly G4146 into G1519the everlasting G166 kingdom G932 of our G2257 Lord G2962and G2532 Saviour G4990 Jesus G2424 Christ. G5547


Notice that abundantly is referring to the entrance not the welcome...oh well, you can't keep things in context and you refuse common literary rules...what more shall we talk about. BTW, since you want to try to inflate things to make a point, the passage is II Peter 1:11 not II Peter 2:11 as you claim

So again your accusation is false. It's clear from your rhetoric that you have no intention of trying to understand what the Bible means, the implications of what it says, nor trying to understand what I mean. And it seems that it is you yourself are the one throwing around inflammatory accusations.

since I offer context and common literary rules and you refuse I will let this accusation show your unwillingness to communicate and your basic insistence on falsely accusing me.

Furthermore having provided you with an explanation of the Heb 6 passage you simply ignore it and claim that no one has provided you with an explanation.

wow more false accusations...I did not ignore any explanation of Heb. 6 I did say you needed to do better than saying "I believe" as a basis for your bias.

 

[razzelflabben]

Peter claimed the apostles had surrendered everything for the kingdom of God.

OSAS is wrong since Judas lost his salvation.

so your just repeating what I said only in a different way...cool...I think

 

[ToBeLoved]

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This means that nothing outside of saved people's own free-willed actions can separate them from God's love. For Romans 8:38-39 is not contradicting that saved people themselves can wrongly employ their free will to the ultimate loss of their salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

I disagree with this specific versions reading of Romans 8:38-39.

In the Greek, it says "or any created thing" or any of all creation.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/8-39.htm

This means that not even ourselves can break the New Covenant once we have been crucified to sin, in Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Peter claimed the apostles had surrendered everything for the kingdom of God.

OSAS is wrong since Judas lost his salvation.

For that, you must prove that Judas was saved at all.

Jesus called him a son of perdition, so I think that is a good indication that he was never saved.

 

[razzelflabben]

I disagree with this specific versions reading of Romans 8:38-39.

In the Greek, it says "or any created thing" or any of all creation.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/8-39.htm

This means that not even ourselves can break the New Covenant once we have been crucified to sin, in Christ.

everyone can do their own search since no one is really listening anyway, but here is the cut and paste from strong's

For G1063 I am persuaded, G3982 that G3754 neither G3777death, G2288 nor G3777 life, G2222 nor G3777 angels, G32 nor G3777principalities, G746 nor G3777 powers, G1411 nor G3777 things present, G1764 nor G3777 things to come, G3195
Rom 8:39

Nor G3777 height, G5313 nor G3777 depth, G899 nor G3777 any G5100other G2087 creature, G2937 shall be able G1410 to separate G5563 us G2248 from G575 the love G26 of God, G2316which is in G1722 Christ G5547 Jesus G2424 our G2257 Lord. G2962

Notice that strongs translates the word "other" which I think some of you all are missing when you read the text. Other created things...what is the other referring to here...well, if we use common literary rules and look at the things listed, they are all those things that are out of man's power or control....look at the list, death...life...angels...pricipalities...powers...present...to come...height...depth...other creature...creature according to the context refers to the angels, demons, death, life, etc. not some human. In fact, if we look at scripture we see that it clearly states that our battle is NOT with flesh and blood but with the demonic forces....not only that, but there is a war within us for control over that Lordship.

that being true, (passages upon request so as not to make this undoly long) why would there be a war within between the old man and the new man, why would Satan try to convince us of all kinds of things against God if he was unable to draw us away once we become true believers?

 

[ToBeLoved]

For Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that even saved people, who have repented and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing

Where does this verse say they loose their salvation? Your reading a lot into the verse that is not there.

What this verse is saying is that when we are saved, we are crucified in Christ to sin and have died to sin. That Christ has given us His justification and declared us righteous and created in each of us a new creation.

It is therefore, impossible that one could return to having their master being satan/flesh again.

One can not have undone what Jesus Christ Himself has done.

Knowing also the context of the Book of Hebrews, which is the apostles explaining to the Old Covenant people (Hebrews/Israelite's) what the New Covenant is and how it differs from the Old Covenant and how we need to be now, under the blood of Christ, the Messiah and not according to the Old Coveant and the law of Moses.

Hebrews 6
A Call to Maturity

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

God's Promise is Certain

13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. 17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

 

[razzelflabben]

For that, you must prove that Judas was saved at all.

Jesus called him a son of perdition, so I think that is a good indication that he was never saved.

Not my argument but the case can certainly be made....John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[ToBeLoved]

everyone can do their own search since no one is really listening anyway, but here is the cut and paste from strong's

For G1063 I am persuaded, G3982 that G3754 neither G3777death, G2288 nor G3777 life, G2222 nor G3777 angels, G32 nor G3777principalities, G746 nor G3777 powers, G1411 nor G3777 things present, G1764 nor G3777 things to come, G3195
Rom 8:39

Nor G3777 height, G5313 nor G3777 depth, G899 nor G3777 any G5100other G2087 creature, G2937 shall be able G1410 to separate G5563 us G2248 from G575 the love G26 of God, G2316which is in G1722 Christ G5547 Jesus G2424 our G2257 Lord. G2962

Notice that strongs translates the word "other" which I think some of you all are missing when you read the text. Other created things...what is the other referring to here...well, if we use common literary rules and look at the things listed, they are all those things that are out of man's power or control....look at the list, death...life...angels...pricipalities...powers...present...to come...height...depth...other creature...creature according to the context refers to the angels, demons, death, life, etc. not some human. In fact, if we look at scripture we see that it clearly states that our battle is NOT with flesh and blood but with the demonic forces....not only that, but there is a war within us for control over that Lordship.

that being true, (passages upon request so as not to make this undoly long) why would there be a war within between the old man and the new man, why would Satan try to convince us of all kinds of things against God if he was unable to draw us away once we become true believers?

I disagree with your definition of creature, because the word used implies all of creation. The word is

ktisis: creation (the act or the product)
Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ktisis
Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is)
Short Definition: creation, creature, institution
Definition: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2937 ktísis – properly, creation (creature) which is founded from nothing (this is also the sense of this term from Homer on); creation out of nothing (Lat ex nihilo). See 2936 (ktizō) and 2939 /ktístēs ("the Creator") for lengthy discussion on "creation-facts."

So I believe this could definitely mean a human as we are part of the creation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Not my argument but the case can certainly be made....John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

There is actually a thread about that open

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/judas-was-saved-and-then-lost-his-salvation.7973793/

i am not going to wander off onto this subject but if someone else wants to discuss it they can go to this thread and I am subscribed to it and we can discuss it there.

 

[ToBeLoved]

For G1063 I am persuaded, G3982 that G3754 neither G3777death, G2288 nor G3777 life, G2222 nor G3777 angels, G32 nor G3777principalities, G746 nor G3777 powers, G1411 nor G3777 things present, G1764 nor G3777 things to come, G3195
Rom 8:39

Nor G3777 height, G5313 nor G3777 depth, G899 nor G3777 any G5100other G2087 creature, G2937 shall be able G1410 to separate G5563 us G2248 from G575 the love G26 of God, G2316which is in G1722 Christ G5547 Jesus G2424 our G2257 Lord. G2962

Actually the more I looked at this verse today during our discussion, I find the other wording earlier "things present" to also be interesting in these verses.

The specific word used is enestota and it is only found in two verses, the one we are looking at and in 1 Corinthians 3:22.


ἐνεστῶτα (enestōta) — 2 Occurrences

Romans 8:38 V-RPA-NNP
GRK: ἀρχαὶ οὔτε ἐνεστῶτα οὔτε μέλλοντα
NAS: nor things present, nor
KJV: nor things present, nor
INT: principalities nor things present nor things to be

1 Corinthians 3:22 V-RPA-NNP
GRK: θάνατος εἴτε ἐνεστῶτα εἴτε μέλλοντα
NAS: or things present or
KJV: or things present, or
INT: death or present things or coming things

Strong's Concordance
enistémi: to place in, to be at hand, perf. part. to be present
Original Word: ἐνίστημι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: enistémi
Phonetic Spelling: (en-is'-tay-mee)
Short Definition: I place in or upon, am at hand, am present, threaten
Definition: I place in or upon; only in the intrans. tenses: I impend, am at hand, am present, threaten; as adj: present.

I think this proves that the verse is talking about anything in the present, which then would include us.

IMHO, this proves OSAS because even we, ourselves cannot revoke the New Covenant. We have been bought for a price and have changed masters and been created a new creature.