• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This tells me nothing that I already know

And it tells no one anything that they already know

Again

And the WORD was made flesh is literally THE WORD made flesh

And anyone who denies JESUS CHRIST ((who came forth from GOD and into the world) as come in the flesh is not of GOD

And is in fact anti CHRIST

which can I say translates to anti GOD?
Jesis Christ came in the flesh and he is God manifest in the flesh. You won't be able to marginalize me into some side cult by trying to find out if I believe jesus Christ came in the flesh. i do believe this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,728
2,819
USA
✟109,054.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I have already shown this, big sighhhhhh, ok here they are again. This commission was for them and they did go forth and it extends to all who would go forth also in some principles. But notice jesus told them not to God the way of the gentiles and

"10 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.

13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." (Matthew 10)

and

"3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.

5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.

6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.

7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:

9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,

11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.

15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
this has not changed even today

Those who hear the TRUTH are those who yearn for more than what this world passes off as treasure

If you want to know who hears and believes go to Matthew 5 and read the sermon on the mount
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
"20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."

obviously these men were saved at this point. To have your names written in the Lambs book of life but later in John 6:66, many of His disciples went back and walked no more with him, so many of them may have once been in the Lambs book of life and born again and saved, then lost it and were blotted out of the book. Judas would be among such as we see in Psalms 69
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Then you shouldn't use John 4 to support your argument about LIVING WATER

For that was to a Samaritan woman!
the water of life in the word is different from the power to bubble that water forth and the flow of water. a fountain of water is different than a glass
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,728
2,819
USA
✟109,054.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesis Christ came in the flesh and he is God manifest in the flesh. You won't be able to marginalize me into some side cult by trying to find out if I believe jesus Christ came in the flesh. i do believe this.
You?

I am trying to remind you that you aren't here to feed yourself but thw baby lambs trailing behind the filled and fat and fed sheep who were in turn supposed to feed the lambs (Ezekiel 34)
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,728
2,819
USA
✟109,054.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
the water of life in the word is different from the power to bubble that water forth and the flow of water. a fountain of water is different than a glass
The fountain hasn't yet been opened up to all so point them to THAT LIVING WATER

Tell them to come to THE WATERS
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,728
2,819
USA
✟109,054.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."

obviously these men were saved at this point. To have your names written in the Lambs book of life but later in John 6:66, many of His disciples went back and walked no more with him, so many of them may have once been in the Lambs book of life and born again and saved, then lost it and were blotted out of the book. Judas would be among such as we see in Psalms 69
Yes and?

What did HE tell Peter?
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
"20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."

obviously these men were saved at this point. To have your names written in the Lambs book of life but later in John 6:66, many of His disciples went back and walked no more with him, so many of them may have once been in the Lambs book of life and born again and saved, then lost it and were blotted out of the book. Judas would be among such as we see in Psalms 69
But since Jesus called Judas a son of perdition and he betrayed Christ this does not prove that Judas was saved.

Jesus is saying do not rejoice in the things that you are able to do in this world, but rejoice that you will be eternally with God for eternity.

This still doesn't prove to me that Judas was saved. I think Jesus chose Him knowing that he might not believe.
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,728
2,819
USA
✟109,054.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But since Jesus called Judas a son of perdition and he betrayed Christ this does not prove that Judas was saved.

Jesus is saying do not rejoice in the things that you are able to do in this world, but rejoice that you will be eternally with God for eternity.

This still doesn't prove to me that Judas was saved. I think Jesus chose Him knowing that he might not believe.
Scriptures were already prophecied concerning Judas
 
  • Like
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Scriptures were already prophecied concerning Judas
you seem to misunderstand prophecy then. God see what will be but he did not make Judas sin, nor did he cause Lucifer to sin. Yet he knew they would. This doesn't stop God from having a relationship with them while they are with him.

I have give so much proof that Judas was saved a sheep sent to lost sheep, given power to cast out devils, therefore he must have had Christ in him as John 15 says, for without Jesus no one can do anything.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Whoever drinks THE WATER THAT I WILL GIVE!

"Thy word was found and i did eat.

The word is referred to as light, the seed, water, bread, etc. Jesus said unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood we have no life IN US. He is the living bread..Old testament saints ate and drank of the same spiritual meat and drink we do and that was Christ, 1 Cor 10.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Jesus is saying do not rejoice in the things that you are able to do in this world, but rejoice that you will be eternally with God for eternity.
No Jesus dint say that he said that their names are (present tense) written in the Lambs book of life.

I marvel at how some twist scripture to make up their own words and make it say whatever they want to avoid the clear consequence of what the text says. This is amazing. It is so clear to the unbiased reader.

some will never admit that OSAS is a wrong doctrine even if the facts mount up against them from scripture. I have seen this before. It doesn't matter what scripture says they will either ignore it change it or deny it, or just go off to quote another verse that is not related directly etc.

some , especially ministers have the biggest piece of humble pie to eat here and they will avoid this like the plague. I fear for some who will just simply change the scriptures and wrest them to make them fit their view, denying the clear words of the text.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
you seem to misunderstand prophecy then. God see what will be but he did not make Judas sin, nor did he cause Lucifer to sin. Yet he knew they would. This doesn't stop God from having a relationship with them while they are with him.

I have give so much proof that Judas was saved a sheep sent to lost sheep, given power to cast out devils, therefore he must have had Christ in him as John 15 says, for without Jesus no one can do anything.
A sinner can do a lot of things without Christ.

It is the saved person that can do nothing good or pleasing to God without Christ.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
No Jesus dint say that he said that their names are (present tense) written in the Lambs book of life.

I marvel at how some twist scripture to make up their own words and make it say whatever they want to avoid the clear consequence of what the text says. This is amazing. It is so clear to the unbiased reader.

some will never admit that OSAS is a wrong doctrine even if the facts mount up against them from scripture. I have seen this before. It doesn't matter what scripture says they will either ignore it change it or deny it, or just go off to quote another verse that is not related directly etc.

some , especially ministers have the biggest piece of humble pie to eat here and they will avoid this like the plague. I fear for some who will just simply change the scriptures and wrest them to make them fit their view, denying the clear words of the text.
Really? It is so clear that all the unbiased readers in this thread disagree with you.

What I think is clear is that you have read something into the scripture, even after Jesus specifically called out Judas as a son of perdition and now you do not want to let your incorrect understanding go.

Jesus did not say there names are, but that the real prize is when their names are written in the Book of Life. You just don't understanding contrasts in Biblical writing. And present tense because He was speaking to people right there. To see what was more important.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,728
2,819
USA
✟109,054.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
you seem to misunderstand prophecy then. God see what will be but he did not make Judas sin, nor did he cause Lucifer to sin. Yet he knew they would. This doesn't stop God from having a relationship with them while they are with him.

I have give so much proof that Judas was saved a sheep sent to lost sheep, given power to cast out devils, therefore he must have had Christ in him as John 15 says, for without Jesus no one can do anything.
GOD is not the GOD of the dead but the GOD of the living

And HE is doing the work of covering

And those who do not have the RIGHT GARMENT ( who haven't been washed and justified in HIS sight) can't come to the wedding

That is simply saying there will be those inside and there will be those outside THE DOOR unto THE KINGDOM of GOD
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,921
1,244
Kentucky
✟72,039.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
No, it is not possible that someone can reject Christ after being born again.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will "depart" from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have "shared in the Holy Spirit", and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.


Revelation 2:4-5
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and "remove your lampstand" from its place, unless you repent.

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, "brothers", lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to "fall away from the living God".

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, "after" they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the "last state has become worse for them than the first". For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be "cut off".

Matthew 24:10-13
And then "many will fall away" and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. "But the one who endures to the end will be saved".

Revelation 3:11
I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

2 Timothy 4:9-10
Do your best to come to me soon. For Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.

Now I'm not going to say your statement is "Not possibly," true. I would say there is some serious explanation needed.

There are dozens of texts that make it seem as though faith in Jesus is something we need to persevere, as opposed to once saved always saved.

As we look at the descriptors in the verses above we see they are considered "brothers, those who believed, having escaped the defilements of the world," and encouraged to, "persevere, be steadfast, remain to the end."

When they don't they are said to, "not receive the crown of life" and are contrasted with those "that will be saved."

There is much exegetical work followed by systematics before we use phrases like "Not Possibly."

Unless of coarse one is following a certain tradition and arguing from the tradition as opposed to the text. Then a simple appeal to authority should do nicely.

But that is a logical fallacy.

Why don't we argue the text in context and avoid old fallacies, no matter how well-steeped in church history?
 
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,921
1,244
Kentucky
✟72,039.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Yes but you miss my point the two stories we are referring to are different. One was the apostles complaining that others cast out devils in Jesus name and they said they followed not us, I said these were born again and casting out devils truly in jesus name, or in the character life power authority and new birth in Christ. But the others in Acts were not in His name truly, they just tried to use the words like a formula, without actually being saved. This the devils saw and attacked them. So only those who are saved in Christ will the devils fear and run from because they are in the life and power and authority of Christ, as the apostles were and as those in Luke 10 who cast out devils were who also had their names written in the book of life.

so this shows even clearer that those who cast out devils were born again and saved before the cross or the devils would have attacked them for not being in the name of jesus ( or in the life and character and power of jesus in some measure)

But the seven sons of Sceva in Acts 19 were described as "some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists."

We see accounts of Jewish exorcism in the rabbinic writings and apocryphal writings from 200 BCE to 200 CE. Many were clearly not Christian.

Clearly, every believer has the type of authority demonstrated by the 12 and 70. But why assume that it is exclusive to Christians? It seems that Priest, Rabbis, and itinerant exorcists, had some abilities to expel some demons.

If this is true, then Judas isn't necessarily an example of someone who lost his salvation.

Again, a deeper conceptual study of how well-defined or loosely-defined salvation is in the scriptures needs to occur before we try and force Judas into the "saved" category.
 
Upvote 0