Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[ToBeLoved]

No this is not accurate again. The OT saints had the Spirit of Chris in them. This was the word of God sown in their hearts as all have, but they heard the word of God come to them to their understanding.

David said "thy word hath ( past tense) quickened me". To be quickened ( or made alive) by the word of God is to be born again. Peter said we are born again by the incorruptible sed which is the word of God. Jesus speaking of the seed sown in the heart which is the word of God said if men believe that word they will be saved.

Jesus said to a man before the cross, this day salvation is come. Jesus said to the apostles before the cross , none of them is lost.

I can bring so many examples of OT salvation it is overwhelming. OT saints were born again by the word of God in them. This word is quick and powerful and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. I am not just speaking of scripture here. Abraham had this word or the seed ( which is Christ ) in him also as Galtians 3 says.

No. The Old Testament saints did not have the Spirit of Christ/Holy Spirit in them.

There were times when the Holy Spirit was with them, but indwelling them as we are today. No.

Some of the Old Testament saints did have the Holy Spirit for a time, but they did not experience salvation because Jesus had not died yet.

I think that you should bring for your examples.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus sent them out as sheep to the Lost sheep read Matthew 10 KJV

Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and he knows them and he gives unto them eternal life. When Jesus called Matthew he said follow me, immediately Matthew got up and followed jesus. This is because he was his sheep. jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they follow him.

I would like the specific verses so we are on the same page.

 

[ToBeLoved]

When Jesus sent them out Matthew 10 and other places. He told them not to go to the gentiles or samaritans. But after the death of host he sent them to all the world.

Before or after Jesus death? That is the question.

 

[miknik5]

No this is not right either. You seem to forget the trinity, The Spirit of the father was in them Matthew 10 before the cross and the Spirit of Christ ( the Son, the word)

Jesus said ( before the cross0 unless a person is born again they cannot see the kingdom. But while speaking of the mysteries of the kingdom jesus told the apostles that their eyes see ( the kingdom) but to those that are without ( without the kingdom) it is done in parables.

All Ot saints had the Spirit of Christ yet not the baptism with et Holy Ghost. OT saints had measures of the Holy Ghost power . But their salvation was being quickened by the word of God through the Spirit. The Holy Spirit baptists all men into the body of Christ. and jesus baptises with the Holy Ghost. Jesus said the words that he spoke were spirit and they were life John 6:63.

all OT saints ate the same spiritual meat and spiritual drink that we eat and drink of for salvation and to have Christ in us, for they ate of that spiritual rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ. Jesus said he that believes ( before the cross0 hath everlasting life and IS PASSED ( present tense) from death to life ( before the cross, though not without the cross in time) God calls men saved by their faith in his righteousness.

This is a 800 page discussion and easily proven from scripture. i need to do a thread on OT salvation and the new birth in the OT.

They believed HE came forth from GOD
That was the confession

Read John 17 and understand that while HE was with them HE had kept them fit they did not chose HIM but HE had chosen them

Also remember HE said I have much more to tell you but you can not bear it now but when HE comes THE SPIRIT of TRUTH whom (((((I)))))) will send from THE FATHER ,HE will lead you to all TRUTH for HE will take from What is mine and give to you and HE will not speak if HIMSELF but what HE hears
And HE shall glorify ME

The JEWISH chosen knew there was a kingdom of GOD that was coming but their understanding song of that kingdom was different

Even Peter did not fully understand all about the kingdom until after HE was raised

Then they understood what HE meant when HE said
Tear down this body and I will raise it up in three days

They were washed by the WORD which they had received
They had truly believed GE came forth from GOD

 

[LoveofTruth]

CHRIST asked who do the people say I AM?

HE had already testified of HIMSELF enough for men to have believed and made a right judgement

But not all men did make a right judgement (John 8)
In fact they kept asking whonis your father showing they did not believe CHRIST's testimony of who HE had said HE IS

Peter made a right judgement and it was upon this confession that CHRIST would build HIS BODY

Peter was washed but had not been born again

None had

Furthermore CHRIST states this "you are clean,,,,
BUT NOT ALL (and this was directed at Judas!) (John 13)

None had the HOLY SPIRIT because the SPIEIT had not yet been given since JESUS had not yet been glorified

the water jesus gives shall bubble forth unto a well spring. This water is the word of God that will spring forth at the baptism with the Holy Ghost i power . But to be saved and born again by the word of God ( which is spirit) and then to have the power of the Spirit at pentecost are different. All the apostles were saved and born again before pentecost and waiting for the power of the Holy Spirit

 

[miknik5]

No this is not accurate again. The OT saints had the Spirit of Christ in them 1 Peter 1 This was the word of God sown in their hearts as all have, but they heard the word of God come to them to their understanding.

David said "thy word hath ( past tense) quickened me". To be quickened ( or made alive) by the word of God is to be born again. Peter said we are born again by the incorruptible sed which is the word of God. Jesus speaking of the seed sown in the heart which is the word of God said if men believe that word they will be saved.

Jesus said to a man before the cross, this day salvation is come. Jesus said to the apostles before the cross , none of them is lost.

I can bring so many examples of OT salvation it is overwhelming. OT saints were born again by the word of God in them. This word is quick and powerful and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. I am not just speaking of scripture here. Abraham had this word or the seed ( which is Christ ) in him also as Galtians 3 says.

John 7:39 says otherwise

 

[LoveofTruth]

Before or after Jesus death? That is the question.

before as i have been showing clearly.

"17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight." ( Luke 10)

 

[miknik5]

So you affirm that there are no more prophets?

the water jesus gives shall bubble forth unto a well spring. This water is the word of God that will spring forth at the baptism with the Holy Ghost i power . But to be saved and born again by the word of God ( which is spirit) and then to have the power of the Spirit at pentecost are different. All the apostles were saved and born again before pentecost and waiting for the power of the Holy Spirit

to do what?

 

[miknik5]

I still disagree that he was a sheep sent by Jesus anywhere, because I don't think the disciples were sent out until after Jesus death.

Yes, they had been given the power to cast out demons, and how ironic for Judas how that ended up.

It was the power of HIS NAME

look at the apostles when they came back and said we saw some casting out demons in Your name and we tried to stop them

These were saved and born again?

If anyone were born again ofHIS SPIRIT there would be nothing ONE could do but open their mouth and glorify GOD. !!!!

 

[LoveofTruth]

John 7:39 says otherwise

No it doesn't

e read

"38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

Here we see that many believed on Jesus and he said

John 5:24
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

and

John 10:42
And many believed on him there.

John 4:39
And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him..."

John 7:31
And many of the people believed on him,..."

to hear the word ( which is spirit and life John 6:63) and believe is to be passed from death unto life. This is the water of the word the washing of water by the word. The water jesus would give to the woman at the well for salvation. But the power of the Spirit and the water to be come like living water flowing came at Pentecost. This was the power for ministry in the gifts etc. and to be witnesses in power in the fulness.

 

[LoveofTruth]

So you affirm that there are no more prophets?

to do what?

There are still apostles and prophets as scripture clearly teaches

 

[miknik5]

apollos knew the scriptures first.
But he was not born again until afterwards
Until he heard about a HOLY SPIRIT being poured out upon those who are baptized into CHRIST

One could not be born again if they had not first died to CHRIST and had been baptized into HIS death and risen in HIM a new creation born of HIS IMPERISHABLE SEED a NEW CREATION to GOD in CHRIST JESUS

 

[ToBeLoved]

before as i have been showing clearly.

"17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight." ( Luke 10)

Well none of this shows that they were sent out to lost sheep. They had been given power over the enemy, evil spirits, but this does not show them sent out.

You said that Jesus sent the disciples out for lost sheep before He died. Those are the verses and the subject I am looking for you to prove.

 

[miknik5]

No it doesn't

e read

"38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

Here we see that many believed on Jesus and he said

John 5:24
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

and

John 10:42
And many believed on him there.

John 4:39
And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him..."

John 7:31
And many of the people believed on him,..."

to hear the word ( which is spirit and life John 6:63) and believe is to be passed from death unto life. This is the water of the word the washing of water by the word. The water jesus would give to the woman at the well for salvation. But the power of the Spirit and the water to be come like living water flowing came at Pentecost. This was the power for ministry in the gifts etc. and to be witnesses in power in the fulness.

Believes in HIM!!!!
Yes

That is what made them clean (BUT NOT ALL)
They had truly believed HE came forth from GOD

Not all believe this

 

[miknik5]

Do all believe that CHRIST came in the flesh?
And those who deny this?

Did you think it is denying HE came into the world in the flesh that is being stressed in this passage is scripture,

Or the truth thaten deny that HE came forth from GOD and therefore it is extraordinary and remarkable that THE SON of GOD who came forth from GOD came into the world in our likeness, the likeness of flesh even as HE is the likeness of GOD that is being denied?!

 

[LoveofTruth]

It was the power of HIS NAME

look at the apostles when they came back and said we saw some casting out demons in Your name and we tried to stop them

These were saved and born again?

If anyone were born again ofHIS SPIRIT there would be nothing ONE could do but open their mouth and glorify GOD. !!!!

The ones who were casting out devils IN JESUS NAME. Were no doubt saved for no devil can be cast out in jesus name unless they are saved. We see some men trying to cast out devils in the name of jesus whom Paul preached in Acts and the devils did not know them and jumped all over them. In the name is not a formula, but an expression of being in Christ, in the authority and power character and life of Christ. Whatsoever we do in word or deed we are to do all in the name of jesus Christ. This whatsoever, relates to our life in Christ in all things.

There is so much to be taught to todays churches that has not been taught I marvel.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Believes in HIM!!!!
Yes

That is what made them clean (BUT NOT ALL)
They had truly believed HE came forth from GOD

Not all believe this

You again are referring to the end of jesus ministry before his death after about three years . Not the beginning of jesus ministry when Judas and the others believed and walked with him and were HIS apostles sent ones, when Judas was a familiar friend of jesus whom he once trusted.

we could also look at satan as he is a deliver now and a liar and fallen and say he is lost. But we could not say he was always lost because of that.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No it doesn't

e read

"38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

Here we see that many believed on Jesus and he said

John 5:24
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

and

John 10:42
And many believed on him there.

John 4:39
And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him..."

John 7:31
And many of the people believed on him,..."

to hear the word ( which is spirit and life John 6:63) and believe is to be passed from death unto life. This is the water of the word the washing of water by the word. The water jesus would give to the woman at the well for salvation. But the power of the Spirit and the water to be come like living water flowing came at Pentecost. This was the power for ministry in the gifts etc. and to be witnesses in power in the fulness.

Are these your verses for showing Jesus sent the disciples out to lost sheep before His death? Of course many believed upon Jesus, but that does not show that the disciples were sent out without Jesus to preach and save.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The ones who were casting out devils IN JESUS NAME. Were no doubt saved for no devil can be cast out in jesus name unless they are saved. We see some men trying to cast out devils in the name of jesus whom Paul preached in Acts and the devils did not know them and jumped all over them. In the name is not a formula, but an expression of being in Christ, in the authority and power character and life of Christ. Whatsoever we do in word or deed we are to do all in the name of jesus Christ. This whatsoever, relates to our life in Christ in all things.

There is so much to be taught to todays churches that has not been taught I marvel.

Well, what we see in scripture is that Jesus HAD given this power to 70 people. However, salvation is individual.

 

[LoveofTruth]

John 5:24
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

before pentecost , consider carefully. let man made doctrines that deny this fall to the ground. Its time to be free from those windy doctrines of men that have tossed believers about. I know some may say, "well, I believe what I believe don't bother me with the facts" but that is not the way any should be.